Matt Hayes article on the investigation
I did a search on this and did my best to look at everything I could and can't see that I've duplicated effort. Additionally, I'm sure this could be viewed as more info on a topic we already know about, but a very supportive take on the road ahead of the program, and somewhat gives me some hope that this will eventually blow over.
Matt Hayes article, again during my search couldn't find anything suggesting his stuff was verboten, that feels essentially says that unless there is direct video evidence of wrong doing, the charges won't stick. He also takes a few shots at sparty, which made me laugh.
A childish, transparent and overreaching second run at a coach who embarrassed the NCAA the last time they had him square in their infractions sights — and you better believe the NCAA will do everything it can to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
This group of enforcement misfits — honestly, there’s no other way to say it — who have failed/botched/lost in court with nearly every single significant enforcement case, is coming after Harbaugh with an infraction that will be next to impossible to prove.
We'll see, it sounds like it will be quite a while before any investigation is complete and any sort of infractions could be made...besides who knows where Harbaugh will be employed by that point. I'm hoping still in Ann Arbor, but Jim gonna do Jim.
Link: https://saturdaytradition.com/michigan-football/hayes-jim-harbaugh-is-laughing-at-the-ncaa-while-leading-michigans-playoff-bid/
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^
The catering to the NCAA requests is what I feel a lot of people are pissed off about. If there's nothing to hide, than sure, hand everything over and move on immediately. I would be more worried about handing over devices and then the NCAA looking for anything that sparks their interests.
I also think there should be a time table to these sorts of discretionary investigations so folks can get on with their lives and programs. If it's not clear, cut, and dry in regards to breaking the gray area of NCAA rules, say as much and be done with it. This seemed like something the NCAA was hoping would blow up and be easily identifiable. Now this seems more like a fishing expedition hoping to catch anything that looks remotely uncouth.
October 23rd, 2023 at 9:04 PM ^
Well the khakis have likely been used to obscure an enthusiasm unknown to mankind a time or two! The evidence of this has been seen at games.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^
From what I can tell (and I welcome correction if wrong), he had at least ~24hrs of foreknowledge before the devices were surrendered. *IF* there was any potentially incriminating evidence on those devices at any time, if this guy is worth his salary, it was long gone by the time the phone and computer were handed over to the NCAA investigators.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
I frequently deal with this in my litigation practice. Virtually nothing is "long gone" and almost everything is recoverable. And you'd be able to see what was done (i.e., who logged on and who deleted or tried to delete what).
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:34 PM ^
For anyone who is in the know on a subject like this, let's just assume they find some evidence of wrongdoing (assume the worst as far as what they find), and it happens before the regular season is over.
Is there a chance that the NCAA could/would have the ability to try to enforce some kind of postseason ban mid-season? I remember hearing from one of the commentators during the MSU game that the NCAA tries to stay away from rulings that punish players if the players were not involved in the rule-breaking, but that postseason bans were still a potential option. I think I remember reading that even though the NCAA does not govern the CFP, you still have to be considered bowl-eligible to be considered for the CFP (go figure) and if the NCAA determines you're not bowl-eligible, you're not eligible for the CFP.
I have to believe that if Michigan ends up being a top-4 team and makes the CFP, and then the NCAA tries to ban them from competing in the CFP after the selections have already happened, it would ignite a firestorm and massive public backlash, as one of the games would have to be rendered a forfeit, the networks would go berserk and undoubtedly try to sue the NCAA for lost revenue.
But if something comes to light before the end of the regular season, what're the odds the NCAA tries to go for the jugular and bar Michigan from competing in the CFP, should they be fortunate enough to make it there anyway?
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:53 PM ^
I think they talked about this on one of the mgopods, maybe the State preview one. But basically, once the school gets an official notice of allegations, they have 90 days to respond. From there it could be an appeal, discussion on punishment, response to that punishment, etc. So we're already clear of this season for any ramifications.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
When presented with allegations, you have 90 days to respond. If the NCAA completed their investigation tomorrow, the postseason will still be over by the time 90 days is up. Source: Brian on the podcast Friday, and I don't feel like digging through the NCAA rule book to verify.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:35 PM ^
"a coach who embarrassed the NCAA the last time they had him square in their infractions sights"
I'm struggling with that a bit. Until the NCAA concludes the investigation and levies the penalty, isn't this still up in the air? Couldn't they come back with another four games next year?
Regarding this particular investigation, Michigan has suspended Connor Stalions during the investigation. IMO, he may be an ignorant staffer who overreached and in no way involved Jim, but that is an interesting turn of events.
I was under the impression that the NCAA was judge, jury and executioner in these things, but the article reads as though it can be challenged in court. Hopefully, this is the case.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:06 PM ^
Until the NCAA concludes the investigation and levies the penalty, isn't this still up in the air?
They may get the last laugh, but in the meantime, he has clowned them.
That's my half-hearted attempt at justifying the author's take.
Also, I doubt it will get to a point where we sue the NCAA but never say never.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:37 PM ^
What scares me is what he alludes to at the end. They are mad at Jim, they said they're gonna make an example out of Jim and I worry they're going to wait and see if we make the playoff to hurt as much as possible and bring down a punishment sometime in December.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
As said on the TV broadcast last night however is that the NCAA has a stated position that they will not make players suffer for infractions they didn't committ. UM should just drag it out either way.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:40 PM ^
Lol, the first investigation is nowhere near concluded and that is now over 3 years ago from alleged violations. But they will all the sudden conclude an investigation in 2 months?
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:53 PM ^
Easy to conclude an investigation when they’re just making it all up and have already decided on the verdict and punishment.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
I find it strange that the only ncaa investigations we have heard about this season (correct me if I’m wrong) are about Michigan. So, the ncaa is basically saying all the other schools are following the rules to a T ?
ok, sure.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
Off the top of my head in 2023 there was the Tennessee investigation, the Iowa gambling thing, the LSU investigation. I Googled it and found a couple others, although the UM sign thing dominates search results (AIR FORCE was given a penalty for improper visits, if you can believe that). As far as in-season, the sign thing is the only one that comes to mind.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:03 PM ^
I thought the Tennessee and lsu things were older?
October 23rd, 2023 at 3:00 PM ^
They began before this year, were resolved in 2023. Technically the first NCAA investigation (the recruit/burger thing) began before this year also, details came out 1/7/23.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^
How many schools have a head coach saying the NCAA has billions in revenue and needs to share it with the players, many of which come from poverty and will never make the pros.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:09 PM ^
I'm so glad to hear that all the other schools are following the rule to a T - since, it would imply that no schools are using a "Pay for Play" model regarding NIL, or inducing players with exotic cars - incredible watches - etc.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^
My question would be if he is in fact stealing signs, who is he giving the results to. Who is signaling these signs to the players. The OC and DC would have to be involved I would think
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^
I don't mean this to sound dismissive of your question, but the heart of the matter is not whether or not signs were stolen/used. It's HOW they were stolen (if they were stolen).
In-person scouting of scheduled opponents, and use of electronic surveillance equipment to steal signs and transmit stolen signs to on-field personnel, are the infractions being alleged.
If the analyst merely watched obsessive amounts of game film from broadcast footage and conference-provided scout tape, deciphered opponent signals, and discussed the results of his studies in staff meetings and/or on the sidelines, there is no flag on that play.
If the analyst attended practices or games of scheduled opponents, and took scouting notes (insert Stringer Bell gif) or recorded signals, that would be a rules violation...but proving it requires proving that the analyst went to such places and engaged in such activities.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:28 PM ^
I'd also have to believe if UM/Stallion were sneaky enough to actually attend opponent games and took notes, they wouldn't leave an electronic paper trail for anybody to easily access. This is where the burden of proof is squarely on the NCAA or reporting party.
Unless you can prove that a dude with a fake mustache, funny accent, and a long trench coat with the collar popped attended games and openly recorded signals or sideline interactions, kindly fuck off. Even if a staffer attended someone else's game and wrote something down, do we know what he actually wrote and it's purpose?
I'm thinking UM/Harbaugh/Warde had enough intel/documentation to know this staffer attended opponents games and that's all the can be proved. What he was actually doing there can't be traced to anyone.
Bag of chips the NCAA will use this investigation as a "strict reminder" about the rules and nothing major transpires. I also believe there's about 130 other D1 schools telling their scouting departments to not save their receipts and make sure you stay in hotels under the name Slappy White.
October 23rd, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
Thanks to the NCAA for the unwarranted muddying of our uniforms for the next several months. I'm sure lots of investigating and reports are in order.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
For fun, we should turn over a laptop or phone with tons of photoshopped conversations between the NCAA and Mel Tucker.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:05 PM ^
At Thanksgiving we need John Harbaugh to taunt Jim about cutting and running from NCAA championships because Peyton Mannings cousin got into the NCAA enforcement line instead of the DMV.
Also he should mention how unsatisfying the Super Bowl win was versus the opportunity to improve the lives and careers of future college graduates and fathers as Dad Harbaugh always taught us!
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:06 PM ^
I went to the Sparty game this weekend and have been to 3-4 home games. I’ll send some pictures to Ryan Day and let the NCAA know I was scouting both teams for Ohio State.
October 23rd, 2023 at 2:00 PM ^
That's exactly why I don't think anything will come of this. It's impossible to draw the line if these were just friendly volunteers.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:11 PM ^
We need to stop using the term "stealing". This term is what makes this act so serious. It should be called sign scouting.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:18 PM ^
Harbaugh wants to stay in Michigan.
If we lose Jim Harbaugh under any scenario it would set the program back.
Jim Harbaugh is an elite head coach, generational.
Get him signed NOW!
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:19 PM ^
Sleepy NCAA directly takes up an Ohio State - Ryan Day grievance against Michigan. Does this seem odd?
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:27 PM ^
Ok so allow me to think this through on here… If I understand correctly from things I’ve read and what I’ve heard from Isaiah Hole, Stalions is an ex-military counterintelligence, or more specifically, anti-counterintelligence (is that an oxymoron?) specialist whose job was to help disguise our calls when it became clear in the 2018 & 2019 OSU undressings that they had our playbook.
Then, if these allegations are true, we used his skills and knowledge to do the opposite and decode our opponents calls, and HOT DAMN he gets results, and fast!
Is a guy this talented and intelligent going to leave a trail? Is there a file on his desktop that says “TOP SECRET STOLEN PLAYCALLS”? Did he scan and save a bunch of Chili’s receipts from Columbus and State College and Piscataway and College Park to get reimbursed by the AD?
I have doubts I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:55 PM ^
You never know with people.
But the NCAA is also people.
Just sitting here, hoping for the best, laughing at the jokes, not caring AT ALL about what OSU and MSU say, eye-rolling at any pearl-clutching pundits, and fearing the worst from the NCAA Keystone Cops because of their vendetta.
October 23rd, 2023 at 2:47 PM ^
If his expenses are below $25, then no receipt is necessary.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:33 PM ^
It seems to me the 'vast network' would be extremely challenging to set up. I mean, how clear of a picture or video will you get on a cell phone? I may be wrong, but I really think the type of cameras or video equipment they would need would stand out. Also, even if they can easily distinguish the images from a cell phone, they might be able to pick up hand signals, but many/most schools shield their play poster signs. That seems to me they would have limited sightlines depending on the position of the field. If what I'm thinking is true, they would need several people at each game.
October 23rd, 2023 at 1:49 PM ^
Pretty much the only way Michigan gets in trouble for these alleged violations is if Manuel and Stalions are dumb enough to hand over evidence of wrongdoing.
If I was Stalions and I knew I was doing something wrong then I wouldve smashed my laptop and thrown it in a river the second this story dropped. It's not like this is an FBI investigation we're talking about. It would be beyond stupid to serve the NCAA evidence on a silver platter. If Stalions was doing something wrong, hopefully he was smart enough to have a burner laptop and phone so he could hand over clean devices without suspicion of hiding evidence.
Outside miniscule chance that there is a disgruntled former employee feeding the NCAA evidence. Also, that silly 11W post about Ryan Day hiring a PI to investigate Harbaugh, but that seems too crazy to be true.
October 23rd, 2023 at 2:16 PM ^
Give the NCAA the laptop after wiping it with BleachBit, running it through a shredder, and peeing in the bucket that holds the laptop's shards.
October 23rd, 2023 at 4:02 PM ^
If the NCAA decides to punish Michigan because the NCAA has no legal authority to gain documents/stuff from Michigan, then Michigan can just take legal action against the NCAA. The NCAA is toothless.
October 23rd, 2023 at 4:08 PM ^
This really seems to come down to who, specifically, attended those games (if it was a non-paid friend of Stallions, that could constitute a loophole) and whether the NCAA is willing to buck its trend of non-punishment for major programs no matter the evidence (e.g., Kansas and Arizona basketball).