December 23rd, 2018 at 11:40 AM ^
There was always praise of Kevin Tolbert from the players.
But I think I see the commenter above put FWIW on his comment. That can cover a wide range. He may have reservation himself. But FWIW, I don't know.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:26 PM ^
I disagree. Yes, it's Harbaugh making the final decision, but if he gets shitty calls to choose from that hurts the offense. If you are a supervisor and you get input from 2 co workers and 1 of them constantly gives shitty input, that worker has no value. Jedd had proven that he can be creative and knows what calls to make and when to make them. This year's offense was better, but that has 100% to do with Shea, not Pep.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:35 PM ^
What's your evidence that one coworker constantly gave bad input?
December 23rd, 2018 at 7:14 AM ^
Its all feelings stuff. Just like everything else in the world today. Logic and reason are dead.
December 23rd, 2018 at 12:39 AM ^
Here's something discernable, although possibly not specifically seen in stats. When Jedd was here, Michigan ran a lot of pass plays in which the primary read caught a short pass while running into open space. It was often, and it was clearly planned.
Since Pep's been here, many many pass plays consist of the QB staring at the coverage for 4-5 seconds and then getting sacked or scrambling for a throwaway.
So, a casual observer gets the impression that in Pep's coaching, the QB has to know everything about everything to make the right choice on any given play, and our QB's have just never reached that zenith of understanding. Jedd's coaching didn't seem to rely on that as much, and this is the reason the actual throw game (not the stats, but the visible reality) looked so much different. And this is the reason I prefer Jedd and would like him to come back now that there is a legit O line and quality talent across the entire offense.
December 23rd, 2018 at 2:03 AM ^
Not sure what you mean about adapting the gameplan but,
I really think Harbaugh needs to give up control of the offense. Meaning he has no say in the play calling and little say in the philosophy. More WR, Less TE's. More throwing on 1st down. More vertical throws. Use your weapons.
I think people have forgotten how much a creative offense and play calling actually helps with exec ution. Some people still believe its execution over anything. I would argue vehemently against this.
December 22nd, 2018 at 8:55 PM ^
Is Pep not attacking the new year with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind?
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:19 PM ^
No. He is meandering around with a general malaise about him
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:04 PM ^
I think he's sinking around it.
December 22nd, 2018 at 8:55 PM ^
Good shit, Jedd!
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:44 PM ^
Way to encourage the little guy. Now give him a treat. Perhaps a sticker on a chart, and every 10 stickers he gets a toy car.
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:44 PM ^
Damn Double Post. TWO FACE!!!!!
December 22nd, 2018 at 8:55 PM ^
Bob Stitt.
December 22nd, 2018 at 8:58 PM ^
Stitt happens
December 22nd, 2018 at 8:59 PM ^
Make it happen!!!
In before someone says BUT WE SCORED 39 POINTS AGAINST OSU THE OFFENSE WASNT THE PROBLEM!!!!
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:53 PM ^
Well it wasn’t. 28 first downs, kept the ball for 36 minutes. It’s not the offense’s fault the defense was A GODDAMN TURNSTILE!
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:00 PM ^
It kept the ball for 36 minutes because OSU was scoring so fast. Even 40 is asking a lot out of a defense in this ERA of football with the athletes OSU has. Have to be able to adapt. Huddling down 3 scores in the fourth is a problem no matter how long they held the ball.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:24 PM ^
Exactly. OSU was scoring so fast. Now you have gotten to the root of the problem.
December 23rd, 2018 at 6:23 AM ^
I'm not sure why you are in this argument ST3. We lost that game solely because of the lack of pass rush. The offense wasn't at its best, but it was good enough to win a game had our defense been able to get to Haskins.
December 23rd, 2018 at 7:44 AM ^
It's not one or the other. The offense wasn't good because the defense was bad. The T.O.P. was high because the defense was bad. But, T.O.P. is like the RBI in baseball, a meaningless stat. It was 40-19 with a gifted TD. McCurry got as many targets as Black. The O is incapable of running a no huddle offense due to all the approvals needed on each play.
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:05 PM ^
And there it is. First downs don't win you games, time of possession doesn't win you games. POINTS win you games. When you're down 40 to 19 in the 4th how well did that time of possession work out?
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:39 PM ^
Well, had the defense been able to do its job, it would have worked just fine.
December 23rd, 2018 at 12:28 AM ^
They were down 40-19 in the 4th, and despite running a slow offense still put up another 20 points. Maybe be mad at the defense that couldn't have stopped a wet paper bag.
December 23rd, 2018 at 10:34 AM ^
Wouldn't what you say work against your argument for Pep Hamilton doing a job worth keeping him around for another year? Michigan's offense did very little against Ohio St, until the 4th qtr., 6 points of that 19 up until the 4th qtr coming right after a big Ohio St mistake. Michigan's offense was just not good for 3 qtrs, the 3rd qtr, with nothing scored after half time adjustments, being the worst. Wouldn't a better offense have helped the defense? And in saying that I'm not saying Michigan would have won if the offense was better. But wouldn't Michigan have had a better chance if the offense was producing competitively in the game? I didn't see anything like a competitive offense in that game, the most significant game Michigan will consistently have through the years. Isn't that enough to tell you Pep Hamilton should be replaced?
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:49 PM ^
So the defense gets a pass because the offense didn't score 63 points? How about special teams? Do they get a pass too?
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:01 PM ^
No more I formation / play action on 3 rd and 13 please
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:05 PM ^
People who think this year's offense is 3 yards and a cloud of dust I-form with lots of FBs are the people who still talk about Beilein's 1-3-1.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:39 PM ^
It's not just about that. 1st down-run, 2nd down- run, 3rd and 8- 4 yard out route to the tight end.
December 23rd, 2018 at 12:23 AM ^
It is what we witnessed . Same
formations we run at the varsity level and same schemes
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:02 PM ^
Jedd was a better pass coordinator and a wayyyy better recruiter than Pep
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:09 PM ^
Agreed. There is a noticeable downgrade in passing play calls since the start of 2017.
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:57 PM ^
Can you quantify this?
Wilton Speight completed 61.6% of his passes for 2538 yards, 18 tds, 7 ints, 7.7 yards per attempt, in 331 attempts. Shea is completing 64.8% for 2364, 21-5, 8.2 ypa in 290 attempts so far.
Shea is slightly better in most categories. It's not a huge difference, but it's not worse.
That's not to say that things aren't suffering somewhere, and I think we all agree that Shea is a better QB than Speight then (not to mention now).
But what, specifically, is Pep failing to do? Which play calls are the problem? People always, always throw feelingsball reasoning at this, but the information just isn't available to confirm or deny the theories. No one has yet produced a specific rundown of playcalls that can both be attributed to Pep and be understood to have failed due to his error or inadequacy. For that matter, nobody has been able to say "this is what Pep brings to the table" (perhaps some of those great designs, like that bunch package concept that cleared space for Grant Perry to get that easy first down against MSU, but who's to say that wasn't Harbaugh's idea? The room is opaque to us).
It's all feelingsball.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:30 PM ^
I don't know man, I just use my eyes. This year, my wife was about 90% correct on when Higdon was getting the handoff. Maybe that's Harbaugh, maybe Pep. I just know it wasn't like that in 2015. Stats aren't everything.
December 23rd, 2018 at 2:29 AM ^
Like running into a stacked line and only getting 1 yard carries on 1st and 2nd down. I don't mind playing some manball but we don't have the backs and offensive line like we did in the 90s. We need to get in the current century and the offense better score more points if we want to have a chance at the B1G title next season.
December 23rd, 2018 at 5:56 AM ^
We don't need Jed Fisch. We just need to fix our basic problems. They are not as bad as they appeared against OSU. They can be solved!
The essense of football is to be unpredictable. Screw this identity BS. I'm tired of it.
The core belief of Harbaugh to run a ball control offense with play action and exert your own will doing so. We did this to protect our defense. We did not have the quality interior DL depth that we had last year. Solomon graded great except he almost never played for some reason. It worked all year long until Indiana.
This was the first time we have been outcoached by OSU. And we were grossly outcoached! They exploited our weaknesses on offense with the crossing routes with fast receivers. They out-tempoed us and we were not ready for the play. We could not get to the quarterback like we have all year long. Unfortunately, Indiana exposed this the week before.
In the first couple of years with no running game we had to pass more. We adapted to our own limitations. Our strength this year was running up the middle. The weakness of OSU was running to the edge and long jump balls. We did not exploit the long deep ball until later in the game. We did not exploit the edge enough. We did not have anything new for OSU.
We need to use more creative blitz packages.
Never saw a delayed blitz. If Don Brown can shut down OSU next year like he did PSU this year then we are in business.
We need to develop a 2 minute offense.
I was also disappointed in the tempo of the game once we were behind. I recall the Minnesota game when Navarre was QB and we overcame a 17 point deficit in the 4th quarter to do so. We went to a 2-minute offense the rest of the game, sped up the tempo, passing almost every down with an occasional draw thrown in. Our 2 minute offense has been terrible under Harbaugh. Why can't we use the 2 minute offense at the start of the first and third quarters when our defense is still fresh?
We need to develop a successful red zone offense.
We settle for field goals way too frequently. We can never overcome one bad play in the redzone early in a series. Am I watching the SOL Detroit Lions?
We need to prepare for OSU throughout the season.
Its been stated that OSU prepares for us 15-30 minutes 3 times a week throughout the season. We need to do something similar. Watch game film, discover their weaknesses and develop the plays to exploit those weaknesses through out the season and not in the last week before the GAME. Fight fire with fire!
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:49 PM ^
Pep is utter shit as a recruiter. It's easily the worst thing about him. Our de facto "OC" wasn't among the top 50 recruiters in the Big 10. That's a huge fucking issue.
On top of that, he's at best "OK" as a passing game coordinator.
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:04 PM ^
So Pep's going to relay the calls to Jedd, who relays them to Warinner before Harbaugh tells Shea?
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:06 PM ^
No, Pep is going to get shit canned and then go be the OC for the Lions when they fire Cooter, because that's something they would do.
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:08 PM ^
He's a fine OC, but his offenses per S&P+ at the following stops are as follows:
Minnesota (2009) - 22.4 (92nd)
Miami ( 2011-2012) - 32.5 (27th)/33.4 (31st)
Michigan (2015-2016) - 33.1 (36th)/33.8 (41st)
UCLA (2017) - 35.4 (17th)
By comparison, Michigan's offense this year was...35.2 (24th).
If people are expecting him to suddenly turn this into a fire-breathing monster that's fine, but history does not portend him doing so regardless of the talent around him.
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:26 PM ^
I don't give a shit what S&P says, our offense was much less frustrating in 2015 and 2016 than last year and this year. And difference is Jedd didn't have a run game to work with in 2015 and 2016.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:04 PM ^
You mean you weren't frustrated with Michigan throwing for under 5 ypa against UNLV, or 168 yards against MSU, or hell not cracking 300 yards against Minnesota? That was with a talented QB, a pretty veteran line, and a bunch of older receivers. Or 2016, where they recorded 201 yards of total offense @Iowa, or 119 yards passing against Rutgers (at 50% completion rate), or how they looked against both OSU and FSU to end the year?
The only reason you would look back fondly at those offenses would be because of "good shit Fisch" and the vagaries of time diluting your memories. Those offenses were...fine. They weren't as bad as the numbers I cited, but if you can provide me with some evidence that Michigan has demonstrably more ready-to-play talent on this year's team compared to 2015 or 2016, then by all means do so. But this year's team has virtually no upper-class talent at receiver getting significant playing time, is not getting nearly the consistency from the TE spot as 2015 and 2016 did with Butt, and while Higdon is better than De'Veon Smith we're not talking about a scrub vs. a superstar. Smith averaged 4.7 ypc his senior year, and Higdon has averaged...5.3 ypc, and if you don't dock Smith for his play against FSU in the bowl game we're talking about 4.9 to 5.3.
And Fisch's offenses at Miami and UCLA had fine talent; he had first-round NFL QB Josh Rosen and put up a season that was a bit worse than what Patterson put up this year in the air. And yes, Rosen was hurt during the year and UCLA didn't have UM's talent level, though they also played in the Pac-12 which, let's say, doesn't put up a huge defensive performance week-to-week.
Michigan can and may very well make changes to their offensive staff. But Fisch isn't going to be some immediate, massive upgrade.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:09 PM ^
In 2015 Michigan lost to Ohio State 42-17. In 2016 they lost to Iowa in an anemic offensive performance and then to Ohio State despite a dominant defensive performance because the offense was less than stellar.
The offensive philosophy is determined by Harbaugh, not the passing game coordinator.
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:44 PM ^
I think context is important to look at with a lot of those stats. With how many of those teams was Jedd working with legit talent on offense?
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:06 PM ^
He Miami and UCLA talent. Even a down Miami isn't bad talent-wise, and UCLA had Josh Rosen, and NFL first-round draft pick and one of the more refined QBs around and Mora recruited pretty well with the Bruins. He wasn't trying to do this at Rutgers.
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:50 PM ^
So a shitty UCLA team had a better offense under Jedd than a CFP contender Michigan had under Pep? I'm sold.
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:14 PM ^
Yes, please ignore the two years he was at Michigan where whatever involvement he had with the offense didn't result in outcomes much different than now.
Michigan has a better passing offense per S&P+ this year (115.1) compared to that UCLA team (112.4), as well as a better rushing offense (107.3 compared to 101.5). About the only thing UCLA was better at than Michigan was pace, which is a concern at Michigan but also not necessarily something the OC has a ton of control over (that seems to be a Harbaugh choice).
Again, give me real, hard evidence that Fisch is a better option and I'll listen. I'm fine with Pep being gone, but if you're making that switch try to get a guy who will demonstrably improve your offense, not a guy who is just a different shade of the stuff you're running now.
December 23rd, 2018 at 1:28 AM ^
Let’s turn it around - I don’t care about Jedd, why do you think Pep shouldn’t move on? He’s a minus minus recruiter and he’s not setting the word on fire with... whatever he does. Could you not swap him out with someone who’s even an average recruiter and lose nothing?
December 22nd, 2018 at 10:12 PM ^
Jedd Fisch didn't have Ed Warinner and Jim McElwain, ever. I hope people aren't crediting any good numbers on offense this year to Pep Hamilton. Look at the year before to get a better read on Pep Hamilton.
It's hard to believe Jim Harbaugh thinks Pep Hamilton is doing a bang up job, like some here talk him up to. If he does thinks he's doing great why did he hire Dan Enos and Jim McElwain? Why make a search for great coaches if you think you already have a great coach?
December 22nd, 2018 at 11:20 PM ^
Ed Warinner was brought in because Michigan needed a new offensive line coach because Drevno, who was the OC and demonstrably had more influence over the playcalling than Pep did last year, was pushed out because last year's offense was bad. I don't know how much of that was directly Drevno's fault, but Michigan's offense looked much better this year than last. As for McElwain, I know Brian likes to shit on him because he seems like a weird guy, but the receivers were demonstrably better this year and some of that should be credited to him. Also, when you can get a guy with his pedigree for cheap, why the hell not? They figured he was a one-year rental, but you don't wind up being a successful OC at Alabama and land a couple of HC jobs without being decent at least at your job. And hell, Florida hasn't been particularly good since Meyer left; at some point it can't just be UF is terrible at hiring coaches.
Again, give me evidence that Fisch is demonstrably better than Pep et al and I'll listen. But he's got a ton of mileage around here for Harbaugh thinking his shit was good one time. He'd probably be a good OC at Michigan, but Michigan's offensive struggles aren't due to any one factor, not just the guy who calls in the plays to Harbaugh.
December 22nd, 2018 at 9:10 PM ^
Jedd... The same person who had Wilton throwing from our own end zone with a hurt shoulder against OSU- That Jedd?