OT: Tebow is a good guy, Hernandez clearly is not...Jury is out on Urbz
Much has been made about the increasingly disturbing past of Aaron Hernandez. I must admit I am fascinated by the story and jump all over any news regarding the matter.
I came across the below linked article that brings up a topic (albeit inferred) that has been batted back and forth on this blog - how Urban handled discipline while at the University of Florida - specifically how he handled Aaron Hernandez.
Summing up the article, Hernandez was involved in an assault in 2007 involving a bouncer at The Swamp (and yes, at night it's a club - hence the bouncer). What stands out in this situation is the action (or lack thereof) taken against Hernandez for (a) underage drinking and (b) assault of security personnel:
Officers made it known the following day that they would not be pursuing charges for a minor being served alcohol at The Swamp, but "it would be noted in the report so the coaches could handle it internally."
The Sentinel wrote that Gainesville Poilce recommended Hernandez be charged with a felony, but it's not clear how the case was resolved "because all of Hernandez's other juvenile records are sealed."
During Urban's time in Gainsville, we all know of the string of both violent and non-violent arrests made and the dearth of discipline brought down. The whole situation smacks of the lack of institutional control during Urban's time at Florida. I am of course not insinuating that Urban could have prevented the man (or beast) that Hernandez has become - but perhaps intervention and/or discpline (including removal from the team) may have significantly changed Hernandez's path in life.
Not that he isn't a good dude.
apparently tried to keep him out the fight and/or defuse the situation by trying to pay the bill. Seems pretty good to me.
are also reports that Tebow kept Hernandez and Joe Kane from laying down in the middle of the street between lanes of traffic after the whole incident took place. These reports are unconfirmed at this time.
Not sure if its just me, but I stare at your avatar for about 15 seconds every time I see one of your comments/posts.
because you need more cowbell!
all I can visualize is your avatar GIF.
Or Mountain's "Mississippi Queen."
Or Grand Funk's "American Band."
Looks like Tom Brady was concerned as well.
What's going on with the Casey Anthony trial?
She is free and loving her Ohio State shirt.
is deliberating right now.
There is no way this bitch gets set free. Guilty. For. Sure.
Does inviting Hernandez over to his house countless times for bible study and mentoring count as intervention? Or how about Urban being labled by a Gainsville Sun columnist as a "surrogate father" of Hernandez after Hernandez's father died? Maybe inviting him to his home to spend family time with his children should be worth some sort of notation in your post? Urban deserves responsbility for some of the negative things that occurred at UF, but this one is unfair. Sometimes you can't fix stupid.
Agreed. Kids grow up for ~18 years with parents, siblings, extended family, friends, classmates, etc. A coach can not be expected to totally change a kid in 3-5 years of college.
I do think that some coaches give their players too much leash, but you can't go blaming Urban Meyer for a murder (or multiple murders) that one of his players commits.
If we expect Aaron Hernandez to take responsibility for his actions, then we can't also pass the blame on to everyone else he was in contact with.
I guess the question to me is did Urban try to sweep this under the rug? If so then maybe he did Hernandez a disservice, because maybe it prevented Hernandez from getting the help he needed to keep him out of trouble later in life. I think this is worth investigating, without necessarily blaming Urban Meyer for what happened.
Honestly, I think Urban Meyer believes he has always acted in the best interest of his players. I believe that he cares for his players, despite what some former players have said about his tumultuous career at Florida. What I find disturbing, however, is that he seemed (at Florida) incapable or unwilling to enforce rules or structure.
People are suggesting that some of these 18 year old kids come in with no structure and a laundry list of bad habits. Who is responsible for setting the norms and expectations? Who ought to provide the structure for those kids? They desperately need it. We are going to give him a break because these kids come into college having already made bad decisions? If he fails to provide a culture of integrity and honesty, is he off the hook simply because these kids are tough to work with? I work in a high school in a low-income community so I have witnessed firsthand the challenges and struggles facing kids who have formed bad habits. But I don't let them off the hook for acting like small children and I don't back down because they can be tough and defiant. I provide routine and structure and enforce my classroom rules every day. It's not that complicated.
I am totally willing to give Meyer the benefit of the doubt. As I said, I think he believes he has done right by his kids by being so lenient, and even a little careless when it comes to discipline. He is probably a much nicer gentleman than any of us give him credit for and I'm sure outside of football, he's a perfectly respectable guy. But let's not hold coaches to high expectations because the kids they work with can be "difficult." Yeah, duh. Be a man and coach them to be good men and be relentless in pursuit of that vision. You know, like Brady Hoke or something.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting that Meyer should share ANY blame for what happened recently.
for this. A much better way of saying things than I suppose I did (from the reactions thus far on the thread).
I am not blaming Urban for what Hernandez has become, and I even say that explicitly in my post. I do, however hold him responsible for NOT acting on this early act of violence. "Handled internally" meant NOT handling it in this case.
How do we know that it wasn't handled internally? Do we know if Meyer made this kid do 100 yard bear crawls in the Florida heat the next day? You are assuming it wasn't handled because he wasn't suspended. What if Tim Tebow, who was with him, told Meyer that Hernandez was not at fault and the bouncer was being a doucher? The police didn't charge him with anything so must we hold them responsible too?
Bear crawls and the like are given out when you jump offsides too many times in practice...or miss a blocking assignment. NOT breaking someone's eardrum in a bar room dispute with a bouncer that involved the police. And yes, I would expect a suspension.
Again, though, you are assuming. You have no idea what the bouncer said, how he acted before punches were thrown and you have no idea what Tebow, who you judged to be a good person, said to Meyer about the incident. And, again, we don't know what punishments were handed out internally (if any) for this incident that did not result in any charges.
You seem to be just making excuses at this point because the bottom line is that all you say doesn't really matter. What we DO know is AH had acted out violently more times than once during his time at UF and never missed a game as a result. Does it really matter what a bouncer might have said? To me it wouldn't. Players are held to a higher standard than other students who don't represent the universities in such a public way, and letting things slide like this could very well have played a role in developing AH's feeling that he would never be held accountable for his actions.
I agree with what has been said thus far in that I don't blame Urban for the deaths of anyone, but I would be lying if I said I didn't think coaches could have a considerable impact in a young mans life, even if they were only there for 3-5 years.The sad thing is it seems that the impact Urban may have had was helping to cultivate AH's belief that he was, for some reason, above the law.
the police suggested a felony assault charge against Hernandez but it never materialize. Unfortunately, we don't know why they never proceeded with the charge.
After years of hearing from announcers how you were a better person just for being around Tebow, that doesn't always appear to always be the case. Nothing against Tim, but I got so sick of the fawning over him by ESPN.
That's a fair point. I have heard similar things, and I didn't mean to say he is, in fact, a really great dude but that he might not be as bad as I envision him being. But wait. He coaches at OSU so of course he's not a good dude. ;)
if Tebow ends up starting TE for the Patriots?
I read somewhere that the DA in this case was a Florida booster and he declined to prosecute the felony charge.
Not sure if this is Urban's fault or just an SEC thing. There haven't been many arrests at OSU during his tenure, but most of the players are still Tressel's recruits. Time will tell.
I think that's a valid point. It seems reasonably clear that the culture at Florida was less than ideal - but the jury is out on the extent to which that culture was a product of Urban Meyer vs. a pre-existing condition.
Are you suggesting that Ron Zook ran anything less than a tight ship at Florida?
left UF and "retired" for 1 season, because the SEC boosters have way too much control. Maybe he wanted to boot Hernandez, but the boosters refused. That would make Urban a decent/ good guy.
I'm not advocating that position, but I do remember hearing rumors right after he left.
who openly admit Meyer ran a dirty program "while at Florida." Naturally, everything has changed since then.
We'll all find out in a few years, Either he stops recruiting these questionable youths and wins the right way, or he retires again.
was that he left because of an affair with a Florida coed. With roughly 25 arrest during Meyer's tenure at Florida I only remember Newton getting kicked out and that was for violating the school honor code and not Urban's decision.
than just from the bar fight. According to this article, he had failed as many as 6 different drug tests at FLA. If true, it kind of says a lot about the atmosphere that Urban had created in the program. At Michigan, he'd have been off the team long before it ever got to that many failed tests.
I'm not sure kicking Hernandez off the team would have changed anything. People that get kicked off teams for doing stupid things, usually continue doing stupid things.
But kicking kids off teams doesn't usually happen with a first offense. I think in most cases coaches, like employers and even parents, use progressive disipline. For a first offense (or a small offense) you might get stadium steps, then it might get to a suspension for a game after the second. You might even give them a longer suspension after that for a third depending on what the offense is or boot them off at that point.
What I'm getting at is if you never receive any form of punishment for your misdeeds, how can we expect them to learn from their mistakes and not develop a feeling of being above the law and no longer accountable for their actions?
A) Innocent until proven guilty LOLZ
B) When is a coach no longer responsible for what a kid they recruit does? 1 year? 10 years? 25 years? 18 Julian years? 45.67 Planck time units? 4 cosmological decades?
Give it a rest, guy.
I think one Mayan baktun is fair.
but I do think that coaches are in a position to have a lifelong impact on a players life. I have said this before, I don't think anyone can place the blame of the murders at Urbans feet, that's ridiculous, but I would bet my life that there have been many coaches over the years that took on players like AH and had such a positive impact on their lives that it changed the players path.
I think what many are saying is that Urban could have had that same sort of impact with AH, but obviously didn't. Does that make him guilty of the murders...no. But might it say something (and tell parents of players something) about the way he chooses to run his team and may put winning ahead of things like teaching your child to be accountable for their actions? I think it might.
Yea, I get what you are saying and I agree to an extent.
I (we) hold our coaches to a higher standard at M. We want our coaches to not only win, but also mold boys into men you wouldn't mind moving in next door someday. I get that and I like it a lot. Some other coaches don't do that. All they care about is the national titles, etc. BUT to play devils advocate I think at other institutions all that other stuff we hold dear isn't technically in their job description. Know'msayin'? /SEC Also, I can't say for a fact that Urban didn't do those things and even with AH. Some dudes just defy logic and turn out different. To place the blame at a coach's feet is too big a leap for me to make. I mean RR recruited Pacman and he was involved in some shit. I happen to think RR is a great coach /ducks and does try to convey a family atmosphere and does try to mold good young men. Some dudes just go about life a different way. That's just my opinion.
I don't disagree with any you said there. I agree that you can't place the blame for something like this at a coaches (or anyone elses) feet. He is a grown man and has to take responsibility for his actions (if he actually did it).
I also agree that for some people you can talk, teach and punish them until you're blue in the face and not make a bit of difference. I truly never meant to suggest that Urban played a significant role in getting anyone murdered. I also agree that in many other places, coaches might not be expected to take on the role of father figure and molder of young men.
What I was trying to say is simply as a coach you are in a position that could make a big impact on a players life and the type of coach I would want is the type that relishes that role and makes the tough decisions even when it may temporarily impact the teams win/loss record.
Again, I'm not saying he caused any of this, but I hope for his own sanity sake that he did try to influence AH for the better.If he didn't, that would be a lot to live with knowing you could have done more to try to make a change in a young mans life.
http://m.cbsnews.com/blogsstorysynopsis.rbml?feed_id=71&catid=20016465&…
Apologies for any formatting issues (iPhone)
Little known fact (or maybe not, I didn't know it until just now): Rainey's older brother is none other than Rod "He Hate Me" Smart. How about that?
I don't think anyone's being dismissive of a coach's potential to affect a player, either positively or negatively. It's more the constant desire among some people to tie Meyer to (possibly multiple) murder, motivated mostly by a sports rivalry. Something really dispicable happened, and people are using it as an opportunity to tie blame to someone who shouldn't reasonably be associated with it.
There's a lot of "I'm not saying Meyer's to blame, I'm just saying he could have prevented it if he hadn't been such a lenient coach," which is absolutely ridiculous.
that sentiment, so that would make sense then...
I think you make me grind my teeth as much as anyone on this site. I'm also on record as stating that as fans, we can pretty much take any opportunity to talk smack in regards to other teams.
In this case, I think you are spot on. This isn't tattoos, gold pants or a bar fight. People are dead. I won't bother with a plaintive "show some respect" because the people who will don't need to hear it from me. I defy anyone to show me an example of a coach advocating murder. I suspect that any self-respecting coach does a bit of soul-searching when a former player is in serious trouble with the law.
This is Michigan. If nothing else, don't act so desparate to find something to throw at other teams or fanbases. Let the team speak for you in the classroom, on the field, in the community, and most importantly, after they have left and met life's challenges. If they can't rise to that, what came before won't matter.
And some of Bo's guys still had issues, like Billy Taylor.
If (when) Meyer acts like a dick, he should be called on it. But I think it's a big stretch in this case to put blame on him, even indirect "should have intervened" blame.