Three And Out Takes: Carr, Rodriguez, Martin
I'm impressed with the large numbers of people who seem to have already blazed their way through Three and Out. It took me a while. I stopped for a few days after "Honeymoon from Hell" because it was too depressing; every chapter featuring a game I knew they'd lose spectacularly required a little bit of willpower to start.
But I'm done and a large number of you are done. It is time to talk the turkey.
We've got this document. What does it say about major players in the saga? I was planning one part here but this got long, so today we'll cover Carr, Rodriguez, and Bill Martin, with various players with less prominent roles in the story covered in a post tomorrow.
Lloyd Carr
It says a few things about Lloyd Carr that are not nice, and implies more. Bacon's said he left a lot of things out that he could not get multiple sources on, which is both his responsibility as an actual journalist and horribly frustrating.
The main strikes:
- Informing his former players he would sign any transfer papers they wanted at his meeting with them after their bowl game, a marked contrast from the Bo-Bump transition.
- Telling Mallett he "needed to leave".
- Having zero control over his former players, or—worse—tacitly endorsing their behavior by not jumping down their throats.
- Offering something short of the fiery defense Bo would have launched once the program started taking fire.
That's aside from the state of the roster when Rodriguez took over, which wasn't specifically directed at the new man.
Those seem like major strikes. Screw it: those are major strikes, particularly #3. I find it inconceivable that Eric Mayes would made it thirty seconds into the embarrassing "we own this program" speech before Bo burst from his chest like a Xenomorph. Carr does nothing. Multiple former players trash Rodriguez in public. Carr does nothing. The 2009 golf outing that even guys like Chris Balas* come back from disgusted at, naming specific names of players (Marlin Jackson, Dhani Jones) who embarrassed themselves with their behavior. Is Carr even at it? It's worse if he is.
So, like, whatever. Carr doesn't owe anyone anything except the 400k a year he was pulling down as associate AD. But he's no program patriarch. He's just a guy who used to coach here. His loyalty is to an incredibly specific version of Michigan only. The difference between the Bo guys and the Carr guys is obvious. Bo guys organize a weird counterproductive rally for RR; Carr guys go on MNF and state they're from "Lloyd Carr's Michigan" or storm the AD's office to demand RR's firing after every loss**. There are exceptions, obviously. The trend is clear.
I have no sympathy for arguments the guy is being painted unfairly when he was offered the opportunity to tell his side a dozen times. If history is written by the losers here it's because the winners don't care what the public thinks. They can't be surprised when the public thinks they're not Bo.
Carr did a lot of things for the program but his legacy is significantly tarnished by the pit it found itself in immediately after his departure. It was his lack of a coaching tree, lack of serious coordinators, and lack of tolerance for Les Miles that caused Michigan to hire Rodriguez in the first place. It was his lack of a roster—seven scholarship OL!—and lack of support that provided Rodriguez with two strikes before he even coached a game. We can argue about how much is Carr's fault and how much is Rodriguez's, but figuring out the latter is pointless since RR is gone and everyone hates him. The former is "far too much."
*[By this I mean guys who work for publications for whom access is lifeblood. They're naturally more circumspect. The reaction on premium sites to this golf outing was unprecedented, with people moved to call actual former players out by name after years of dark mutterings.]
**[Not in the book; something I got from a good source.]
Rich Rodriguez
via AnnArbor.com
If you left a goat in the locker room after a Michigan loss and then locked Rodriguez in it for five minutes, you would return to find the walls smeared with blood and feta. There would be no trace of the goat.
Rich Rodriguez was obviously not a stoic guy. His sideline tantrums proved that. The extent of his leg-gashing, table-throwing, goat-cheese-making post-loss hissies is probably the thing that Rodriguez is pissed about. They don't make him look like a stable dude. Neither does his descent into J. Edgar Hoover-esque paranoia, no matter how intent the university was on making that paranoia seems reasonable.
By the time I got through it, my reaction to Rodriguez's portrayal was different than that of the media reviewing the book. It doesn't paint Rodriguez as a guy I would want in charge of my football program. I can deal with one goat-annihilating postgame tantrum a year. Rodriguez seemed to have one after every loss.
So why do most neutral accounts play up the Rodriguez sympathy angle? They do not take the truth that the local media is dominated by agenda-laden twits to be self-evident. When Mike Rosenberg—who comes off as a real winner—bombed Rodriguez with a bunch of half-truths and misrepresentations I bombed back, stating that it was obvious the buyout kerfuffle was university-directed. Surprise: it was university-directed as they tried to get out of their 2.5 million dollar hook. Similarly, Free Press Jihad is re-exposed as a bunch of half-truths at best run by a couple of guys who "had countable hours in there at some point" but had it edited out, no doubt because that's not at all important in a discussion about whether Michigan was more than doubling their allotted time on Sundays.
If you go into the book knowing Rosenberg and Snyder published an embarrassing hack-job and that a large part of the media firestorm surrounding Rodriguez was a combination of University incompetence and the tiny lizard brains of certain folk in the local media*, the main takeaway from the book in re: RR is the sheer height of the plumes his emotional volcano shoots up. I mean, Bacon spends pages and pages on Rodriguez playing up the traditions of Michigan to his players. That's an obvious reaction to the Michigan Man business. I assumed Rodriguez was not an idiot when it came to firing up his troops, I guess, and that stuff shot by me. Beating a bleating ungulate against the wall of the Notre Dame locker room until it bursts into a kaleidoscope of viscera… that stays with you.
I feel bad for the guy. I'm glad he's gone.
*[The rest a combo of Rodriguez never winning any games and his remarkable ability to stick his leg into the press conference bear trap.]
Bill Martin
Good Lord, man. I find it hard to believe that a guy who dragged Michigan kicking and screaming into massive financial success and smoothly hired John Beilein (admittedly after making a questionable hire in Tommy Amaker) was really as incompetent as… uh… I believed he was after the sailboat incident. That's Yogi Berra right there but it's also true.
Here's the the story of the post-Carr coaching search from the perspective of this site:
- Kirk Ferentz is reached out to and either is or is not offered; if offered he may have been given an offer that was a paycut. Ferentz fades but it seems like there was truth to the rumors.
- Flailing. Miles heavily discussed. ESPN reports Michigan contacts him after Ferentz falls through. They agree to wait until the SEC championship game is over. LSU boards buzz that Les has told his team he's out. I would be "surprised if it was not" Miles.
- Infamous ESPN report.
- Sailboat. "Have a great day." Sailboat.
- Conclusion reached in the aftermath is that M "essentially passed on Miles."
- Tedford and Schiano now start getting thrown around along with odder names like Grobe and Pinkel. Also some guy named Hoke. So much Hoke.
- Kirk Ferentz momentarily back. Then gone.
- Schiano talked to, offered, accepts, changes mind, offered again, says no.
- Sean Payton!
- Miles again! Seriously!
- Miles out again.
- Jim Grobe. Jim Grobe does not get an exclamation point.
- KC Keeler! Lane Kiffin! Seriously!
- Rodriguez out of nowhere.
- Sigh… Peanut Butter Jelly Time.
It seemed like a clown show, and behind the scenes… clown show. Martin wants Dungy, has no idea if Dungy—who is a broadcaster and can be contacted by anyone at any time for any reason—will take the job. Wants Ferentz, has no idea that the president of the university will stab him if he hires Ferentz. Wants Miles, has no idea that Lloyd Carr will stab him if he hires Miles. Somehow misses on Schiano, then has Rodriguez fall into his lap and grabs him before anyone can think about it, which sets up the whole buyout fiasco the media will spin for six months. The sailboat incident is even worse since Bacon asserts one of the main problems was Martin had a new cell phone and didn't know how to use it.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh /dies
Martin himself drops out of the story shortly thereafter, which is another indictment of the guy because what enters is a vast institutional incompetence that starts the Rodriguez media cockroach katamari rolling. Everything from the buyout to the Dorsey situation is mishandled not only by Rodriguez (sometimes not even by Rodriguez, as with the buyout) but by the people who should be telling him what is and is not possible. When Rodriguez went to bat for Dorsey with a guy in admissions the guy in admissions should have looked at the guy's transcript before saying yes, and then when he did look at the transcript he should have said no.
Instead we actually sign the guy—opening us up to the most cynical and loathsome of all the lizard-brain media attacks—only to find out he is nowhere near eligible. And don't get me started on the CARA forms, which was a special brand of idiocy all on its own. Martin did a lot of big picture stuff very well, but he was totally unprepared to fix a department that had started downhill long before he arrived.
For all the crap I give Brandon about his failure on big picture stuff, he cleaned out the deadwood with alacrity.
TOMORROW: Players, reporters, me/us(!?).
October 26th, 2011 at 3:40 PM ^
about half the book. regardless of that, my guess is that when the time comes to honor lloyd at the big house he's still going to get the loudest standing ovation to date.
October 26th, 2011 at 3:44 PM ^
I'm Bill Martin, get the f*ck out of my way. Two weeks later Martin announced he would retire.
October 26th, 2011 at 3:46 PM ^
What time's the game on Saturday?
October 26th, 2011 at 3:50 PM ^
Noon. ESPN
October 26th, 2011 at 4:32 PM ^
Appreciated but my comment was a bit of a joke. I can't wait for Saturday (or any saturday in the fall). The endless argument...that I can do without.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:40 PM ^
It was also a much needed comment. No mater the past, think of it like the Monkey in the Lion King "It's in the past!" /3&Out reference
I've enjoyed (the non flamebaiting) debate here, and I'll probably finish the book tonight. And Saturday I'll put on a jersey, watch the game, and cheer, just like I do every saturday.
October 26th, 2011 at 5:40 PM ^
I've been involved in many of the debates, but it gets really tiring. The pro-RR crowd (those remaining in that camp at this point) will never change their minds. The anti (or judge-him-by-his-performance) crowd isn't going to change their minds either. Can't wait for gameday.
October 26th, 2011 at 11:53 PM ^
Dablue. Haven't seen you much around on the three and out posts. Wonder why. I am not surprised you went into a post about a book that disproves half of the shit you hang your hat on and say you are tired of arguing.
Are you still wondering if RichRod pushed Mallett, Arrington, and Boren out the door?
October 27th, 2011 at 12:19 AM ^
I'm sure he will follow other fellow travelers M-Wolverine, Yooper, et al and start trying to discredit Bacon over immaterial facts b/c he doesn't want to believe the truth about why those players left. It's not easy to learn that you've spent the last three years ranting like a lunatic about something only to find out you were full of shit.
October 27th, 2011 at 11:28 AM ^
Oh boy. While you and BigBlue02 cuddle around a campfire (perhaps roasting marshmallows), reading passages from a book about the RR era, delighting in the possibility that he really did have a tough road...consider for a moment that it doesn't matter. The Freep greatly exaggerated their reports; former players didn't like him; and former coaches (even one who pushed him for the job) turned on (without any explanation). And? Did that cause us to lose to Toledo?
What folks like you still can't grasp is that the problem with Rich was his performance on the field. Did Auburn give Malzahn an easy path? Look to Clemson where Swinney was so ridiculed that RR was suggested for that job (especially by the "lunatics", as you say, here) before the 8-0 could dry. A good coach (like a good anyone) overcomes adversity. RR met adversity and failed.
Just as with the overly discussed roadblocks (yet again) "revealed", nothing that Bacon writes (at least as excerpted in the News and/or summarized here) shows that RR worked to re-recruit players. Nothing suggests that RR took steps to make friends in a new "company". In the end, none of that matters.
The argument made by folks like me is just that RR's performance merited firing. Period. End of story. That's what folks like the most adent RR-defenders could never accept. It isn't about him being from WV. It isn't about his intellectual disinterest. It's just about his performance, which was terrible. Period.
October 27th, 2011 at 11:32 AM ^
Are you still wondering if RichRod pushed Mallett, Arrington, and Boren out the door?
No. I'm wondering why the hell you still want to argue about it (and why you can't understand the difference between "failing to re-recruit" and "pushing out the door"...the later of which I never said). Anyway, it seems as if you feel you "won". Maybe if Rich did more of that, he would have kept his job.
October 27th, 2011 at 5:52 PM ^
no feeding
October 26th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
There's a claim here that figuring out how much blame to lay on RR is "pointless since RR is gone and everyone hates him", but if some of RR's mistakes can explain some of Lloyd's former players' behavior, then it's not at all pointless when you're calling major stike against Carr the behavior of his players. Carr wasn't the only mentor those players had and the book makes it clear that some of RR's (and BMartin's) mistakes really upset some people as they were given the boot from the program.
October 26th, 2011 at 3:53 PM ^
"RR's mistakes can explain some of Lloyd's former players' behavior"
Well then here's hoping that Hoke and Borges don't make any mistakes, yeah?
October 26th, 2011 at 4:23 PM ^
October 26th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
The transition from Carr to RR was handled chaotically. That's bad enough.
Martin seems to have been disorganized toward the end of his tenure; it's my belief that Brandon is a stinker with an overblown ego who would never, ever have hired a coach who might stand up to him.
The "review" following the bowl game was a charade. Brandon was going to hire Hoke all along. RR could have won that bowl and still would have been fired, as the decision had been made.
October 26th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
You really don't think that Hoke would stand up to Brandon? Likely not right now of course because Hoke is still on his first year. However he has Michigan football ranked, at 6-1, and with a great recruiting class on deck. Keep on this pace and in a couple years Hoke can hold a presser and say "Bring me the head of Dave Brandon". Shortly after that you'd see Brandon hauling ass down State Street with a mob of students chasing him.
Bo could have asked for Reagan's head and I'd have been halfway over the fence at 1600 PA Avenue before I stopped to think: "Wait, what if Reagon isn't home? What's my plan B here?".
At Michigan any successful coach is going to be able to easily stand up to the AD. The idea of Bo as the coach and patriarch of Michigan Athletics is second nature to us and most people would gladly accept the second coming of Bo, blessed be his name.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^
The "review" following the bowl game was a charade. Brandon was going to hire Hoke all along. RR could have won that bowl and still would have been fired, as the decision had been made.Even if this is true (which is impossible to know), what's the point in speculating? The reality is that we lost the bowl by a score of 52-14. If you went into that game leaning toward a coaching change, it certainly wouldn't have given you any reason to reconsider.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:49 PM ^
October 26th, 2011 at 5:57 PM ^
Completely blocked that final score out of my mind. That is embarassing. Especially now knowing that Mississippi State has spectacularly regressed this year.
October 26th, 2011 at 5:08 PM ^
But he wasn't going to fire a coach before the bowl game without a successor being named and there was no assistant coach on staff who was worthy of the interim title. It was the right move on Brandon's part. A tough decision but well executed in contrast with the 07-08 debacle.
October 26th, 2011 at 5:24 PM ^
If there was one thing Brandon wasn't going to repeat it was the Martin style chaos of hiring Rodriguez. Even if it was a charade and Brandon knew the coach he wanted he still played a cool hand in keeping it close to his vest as long as possible and made the transition as swift as possible.
My thoughts was that Rodriguez was gone even pre-bowl as many people believed it was time to clean house and start over. Sometimes a do-over is warranted and I am pretty sure there was people telling Brandon that even pre-bowl.
October 26th, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
Just a total embarassment all around by everyone involved
There really is no defense for Martin, Carr, Rodriguez, the former players or any of them. They all fucked up a great thing with a bizarre combination of incomptence and selfishness, and now we're playing catch up
Good luck turning this shit around, Brady. But I think you're the right man for the job. You're nothing like the last two sour pusses that ran the show. And, at least your AD, not only has your back, but he also has a fucking clue, too
October 26th, 2011 at 4:39 PM ^
We are in the middle of a very good season right now. One that is damn close to being perfect so far. Things were fucked up in the spring of 2008. The last three years were catch-up. This is the payoff.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:50 PM ^
Our roster is still lacking. Thats what I mean about turning things around. We are still catching up and will be until we can say with a straight face we wouldnt switch roster with Michigan Freaking State
But, agreed, we are having a really nice season. Its been fun. And, I am a big fan of Brady Hoke and the attitude he's bringing. Its good to not have Coach Freak Out About Everything on the sideline
October 26th, 2011 at 5:05 PM ^
we are one hard tackle on Denard from being right back to at least 2009....we are by no means being rewarded for the past 3 years.
It's scary out there.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:45 PM ^
If not, well at least there's free Domino's for everyone!
October 26th, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
October 26th, 2011 at 4:17 PM ^
That is all.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:13 PM ^
What did Dhani Jones and Marlin Jackson do to embarrass themselves at this golf outing? I've been reading this blog everyday since 2007 and don't remember ever hearing about that?
October 26th, 2011 at 5:59 PM ^
I also don't remember ever hearing anything about this. I am very curious.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:15 PM ^
Will get to 500 posts by midnight.
Book it.
Opinions on this topic run strong on both sides.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:49 PM ^
Even though its still a pretty touchy and polarizing topic for most fans, its nice to see that people here are discussing the merits of pretty darn intelligently. You and I may not see eye-to-eye on some of the revelations in the book but I would be remiss if I failed to acknowledge that you're making cogent and credible arguments in this thread, likely much more eloquent than I could do myself. I appreciate your posts and learning your different point of view.
As an aside, I'd be interested to see what other B1G blogs are doing, if they are reading the book and discussing it at all. Its pretty interesting for college football fans in general, not just Michigan fans, I think.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:51 PM ^
considering the frequency of posts by JClay, brodie, et al. . . .
October 26th, 2011 at 7:55 PM ^
I don't see anything wrong with JClay's posts...Brodie on the other hand is being kind of an ass.
October 27th, 2011 at 12:07 AM ^
It's past midnight. <400. FAIL.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:27 PM ^
I'm halfway through the book (on Kindle app), but like Brian says, not a whole lot really surprising to those of us who followed the story closely from the beginning. Even a lot of the Carr stuff was rumored before, and his ambivalence toward RR was obvious from his public silence, if nothing else. The one really interesting, game-changing tidbit for me was that Casteel was ready to go, "had his Michigan phone already", but got convinced to stay at WVU by (slightly) more money and a guaranteed contract.
If Casteel comes, and the dysfunctional mess over the defense is at least substantially reduced, we maybe win 2-3 more games each year under RR and the world is very different now.
Edit: I should add that even if many of the details are not that surprising, I find it still a very compelling read!
October 27th, 2011 at 12:22 AM ^
Maybe Casteel can visit Ann Arbor and explain to Martin how to use his cell phone.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:29 PM ^
Very frustrating. My experience is similar to JiV's. Usually you don't want the old CEO (Lloyd in this case ) hanging around near term because their ego gets in the way for whatever reason. If he stays he's got to support the transition. That's Martin should have been all over him.
Then again Martin had no football cred, seemed a bit detached, so maybe there was little he could have done other than invoke the ghost of Bo.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:29 PM ^
If Carr loved Michigan, it certainly doesn't appear that he cultivated loyalty to the institution, but to himself. I doubt it was on purpose, but it appears to have ended up that way. It had its upside, as Carr never lost his team even in the darkest of times, he won a lot of big games, and he appeared to be a great motivator. But when his enthusiasm waned, he left behind an institution that was focused on individuals, and not the team. When that happened, Michigan became unable to handle the transition. Then he offered to sign the transfer papers for anyone who wanted out, instead of reminding them that "those who stay will be champions".
For me, Carr burned off all of his career goodwill with a four game losing streak to OSU (I personally put the blame on Carr for 7 in a row. There's no way that RichRod could have beaten OSU with what he inherited even under ideal circumstances). He was breakeven to me until some of these recent revelations. Now he's negative. When Michigan lost the most humiliating game in the program's history, Carr lost his right to be excused for this shit.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:31 PM ^
IF Carr loved Michigan?
IF?
jesus christ
October 26th, 2011 at 6:24 PM ^
Are you Lloyd Carr's nephew?
October 27th, 2011 at 9:12 PM ^
slow clap . . . .
So many games where he turtled up and cost us big time - drives me crazy. Especially against OSU - nightmares of Troy Smith as a SO.
ugh
Then the Drew Henson / Tom Brady fiasco. Talk about putting a player above the team!! Why no one blasts him for this is beyond me.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:38 PM ^
Ah yes.
This is precisely why I'm staying far away from this book.
Jimminy Christmas.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^
It may be very disappointing to see the widespread failure that was the last few years, but I'm glad to have, what I believe anyway, a more complete story than we have gotten so far or probably would have ever gotten. I don't think ignoring this book completely is a wise decision.
October 26th, 2011 at 4:48 PM ^
But I'd also understand if some readers didn't want to go through the last 3 years right now. As Brian wrote above, it's somewhat masochistic. Especially in the middle of a 6-1 season that's got a lot of potential.
Chitown - maybe tackle it in the offseason? I'd also recommend reading it at some point, but I understand if it's too soon, or if it might overshadow the current season.
October 26th, 2011 at 6:11 PM ^
I don't know this book kind of put my feelings more in perspective. Despite how bad it may feel to us there is no arguing we didn't suffer a tenth as much as everyone on those teams and part of that program.
Sure it hurt to watch our team struggle so much but at the end of the day we are only observing. It is easy to forget that in the heat of the moment sometimes.
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