Which Michigan opponent do you think would've had a better career at Michigan than the school they selected?
Simple question..I was listening to Mark Packer on Friday who is usually pretty good (although his callers can sometimes sound like Finebaum's crowd, heavy on the south and Ohio). Also playing MSU twice in one week, and potentially a third time this week..I was reminded of Jaren Jackson. If ever there was an ideal player for John Beilein and his system. Jackson with Simpson, Matthews, Livers, Mo Wagner, Duncan Robinson, Teske, and MAAR? Jackson on that squad vs Nova in the title game? I'd love our chances.
My 2nd basketball pick would be Victor Oladipo, just because I loved his athleticism and explosiveness. add him to the 2013 title team vs Louisville? Probably get's M over the top.
In football, I would've loved to see famed OSU flameout Joe Burrows wanted to stick it to them after he left and went to their rival.
All of them.
Huh?
This type of hypothetical stinks because no one ever says who they'd remove. If you want to add JJJ to that team, someone else is getting removed from the rotation.
If I can choose anyone to retroactively pluck and drop it would be Justin Fields, for reasons that should be obvious.
Conversely, imagine DPJ in Alabama's offense this year
The opposite is also interesting and just as valid: Michigan players that would've had better careers elsewhere: Dennis Norfleet, Nico Collins, DPJ, Devin Gardner, Denard (imagine if he didn't spend 2/3 of his starting career with a buffoon coach who thought it'd be best to line him up in the I-formation and instead spent his whole career in a spread)
I really liked Norfleet (especially the "Atomic Dog" shuffle he did while awaiting a punt during the Penn State game) but what exactly would he have done elsewhere at the Power 5 level? He was probably too small for RB and his hands weren't good enough for slot receiver. I'd say Michigan used him as well as they could (returns, occasional end-around).
Jaren Jackson Jr. for sure.
He would've filled the void left by DJ Wilson's early departure. If Wilson had stayed, JJJ would've been a luxury.
But fortunately, Michigan is getting a JJJ-esque talent in Moussa Diabate. I have a feeling Coach Howard will do a better job of using Diabate than Izzo did with JJJ and Coach Howard won't bench him for Adrien Nunez.
Did we really have a void after Wilson left? We went to the national title game the next year.
Yes we did.
The NCAAT run (where we played no #1 or #2 seed to get to the Final Four) changed how people viewed the team.
People have forgotten that we had to play a freshman Isaiah Livers major minutes at PF especially when Duncan Robinson was struggling. (I still recall Ace's posts about this.) And there were major concerns about defense because no one saw Duncan suddenly becoming a very good defender. (What Duncan lost on offense, he made up for in defense.)
With Wilson we would've had 2 experienced stretch 4s in Wilson and Wagner.
The NCAAT run (where we played no #1 or #2 seed to get to the Final Four)
Are you really going to try to cheapen our run that way? I might expect a rival fan to say this, but a Michigan fan shouldn't. We beat the teams that beat those #1 and #2 seeds. If you make the title game, you've earned it.
Besides, even before the Dance we had already won 28 games and the BTT.
No way man, Michigan totally lucked it's way through that tourney! The best team they beat was 6 seed Houston... who? /s
If stating facts is cheapening a run, then I don't know what to tell you.
Ex: Sparty played a 8 seed and a 5 seed in the Final Four to win the 2000 National Championship.
Does me pointing that out cheapen Sparty's run?
2008 KU beat 2 #1 seeds in the Final Four to win the National Championship. By every measure, that's a more impressive Final Four than what most National Championship teams do.
If you are only playing #1 and #2 seeds you would have a lesser chance of advancing than when playing #6 seeds. I think we can all get behind that.
Up to our individual egos to decide if it causes distress that someone mentioned that it was an easier route to the finals than most finals teams have.
We were all excited that Michigan made it to the finals. No difference there. Had we won it, national champs forever.
I don't think it hurts to say that the 2013 run was a more impressive run through the tournament than the 2018 run. They are both impressive runs to the National title game, and I don't hear people mention adding asterisks to final 4s based on who you beat.
I do think DJ left a huge hole against Villinova. I remember someone getting gassed in the game that wouldn't have with DJ there to take minutes and stretch out Nova. They still may have lost, but I think they stood a much better chance in the NC game with DJ.
If JJJ came here, we probably wouldn't have Livers.
Cass would have been pretty sweet.
First one that comes to mind is Otis Reese. Thought he would have had a great chance to make an impact as a freshman.
He got no run at UGA and is now at Ole Miss.
Im sure there are a lot more, but Reese popped into my head first.
I don't think any of Jackson Jr, Oladipo, or Burrows ever had any real inclination to play for Michigan.
Realistic options that would objectively had better careers at UM:
- Jaylen Brown - went to Cal, was Pac-12 freshman of the year on a team that got third in the conference and flamed out in the first round of the tournament. Could have been playing next to Moe, LaVert, DJ, etc.
- Tyus Battle - went to Syracuse, stayed three years, went to the tournament once, never learned to shoot under Boeheim, and went undrafted. Ugh.
Tyus Battle helped complete the long con by John Beilein to send him to Cuse and upset one of the most talented MSU teams in recent memory in the second round.
Sounds like a fair trade-off...
The bagman karma whacked Battle.
First name that popped in my head was Tyus Battle. That's a guy who Beilein would have turned into a star shooter and great PG. Probably still not an NBA guy but he'd have been a tough college player.
Are these former players that were actively recruited by UM and that we had a supposedly legit change to land before they chose to go elsewhere? If so, I don't remember Jackson, Oladipo, or Burrow falling in that category.
Also, Joe Burrow's career turned out just fine after he undertook his cajun vision quest. Michigan definitely could not have topped that experience.
The question you pose in the title does not correspond to the examples you provided. If the question is just simply "which players from other teams would you have liked to see at Michigan" I think the examples you listed are fine. But, none of the guys you pointed out would have had "better careers" at Michigan.
In the case of Jackson Jr. and Oladipo, they would have been on some very talented rosters and their usage would have been heavily decreased. They both would have still been productive since they are talented players, but I doubt they would have had "better careers" here than they did have at their respective schools. Oladipo was the B1G defensive player of the year, National co-defensive player of the year, and a first-team All American in 2012-13; you can't really do much better than that, especially if you throw him into an already crowded backcourt with Burke, Hardaway, Albrecht, and Stauskas. Jackson Jr. was the B1G freshmen of the year and a third-team All B1G player; are we sure he achieves those accolades while sharing minutes with Wagner and Teske?
In the case of Joe Burreaux, he would have had a definitively worse career. We are talking about a QB who had the very best single season in college football history. The guy played himself from 'never sniffing an NFL roster' to 'No.1 overall draft selection' in one year. That never would have happened had he played at Michigan.
I think Branden Dawson would not have had less made 3’s than CJ Baird and Luke Wilson had he gone to Michigan. As it stands, he has as many made 3’s in college as Dr. J, Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, and Teddy Roosevelt.
I don’t understand the Jaren Jackson one. You mean he would have done better than Big Ten Freshman of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, and going fourth overall in the draft? Doubt he’s regretting much.
My 2nd basketball pick would be Victor Oladipo, just because I loved his athleticism and explosiveness. add him to the 2013 title team vs Louisville? Probably get's M over the top.
Victor Oladipo's career wouldn't have been better at Michigan. He was the 2nd overall pick in the NBA draft. While Indiana lost to Syracuse in the sweet 16, and Michigan beat Syracuse in the final 4, IU beat Michigan twice that season. That was a special Michigan team but IU was just as good tournament results notwithstanding. Replay the tournament and there is an equal chance IU advances and not UM.
I think Oladipo would have had a worse career at Michigan and would have been drafted lower with lower overall productivity in a Beilein system from 2010-2013. In contrast, he would have been a star on the 2017-2018 team with Yaklich's defense.
I would've loved to have seen all the best players for other teams on Michigan combined with our best players. That would be cool to see. All of the best players on our team. Our team #1. Best football and basketball teams play with the best players. Cool to see.
Khristian Lander would shine at Michigan. Instead he chose IU.
probably no one from osu
maybe some guy who was on the bench...
<ducks>
I’d take Duane Washington
Terrelle Pryor running a Rich Rod offense would have been interesting. At the time even his HS coach commented it was a better fit for his talents.
M signed Denard a year later, but he didn't start until year 2.
This is a winner. I remember the recruiting battle on this one, and how it went down to the wire (at least we thought so, who knows reality).
He would have started day one. Big guy compared to D. Robinson. Robinson would have never supplanted him; no way. But if (big if), he would have come to M anyway, can you imagine the backfield with Pryor QB and Robinson at RB?
That would have worked.
Defense would still have sucked.
that's true, but pryor specifically didn't want to run that offense and wanted to run a pro style one. unfortunately for pryor, his qb coach at osu (joe daniels) was forced to retire in spring of 2009 due to brain cancer and tressel replaced him with some guy who never got another real coaching job again.
i think pryor's whole career at osu would have been different if daniels was there the whole time instead of just pryor's freshman year.
I don't know anything about the QB coach then, and I don't know if the sales job would have had anything to do with reality anyway (they rarely do), but I agree on why he chose OSU over M. I would have done the same thing.
Well, no I wouldn't. But if I wanted to be a NFL QB I would not have gone to play for RichRod.
Can I cheat and select Kevin Garnett?
For that matter, LeBron James?
I was convinced Michigan was getting Kevin Garnett. Had to subscribe to monthly recruiting magazines to get info back then. They also had a call line to get recruiting info, like a 1-900 number.
I don’t remember the name of the recruiting magazine I got, but the cover had a picture of Garnett and said, “6’9” jewel with a jumper.” VERY disappointing when he went pro out of HS. Didn’t even know that was possible at the time.
I was convinced Michigan was getting Kevin Garnett. Had to subscribe to monthly recruiting magazines to get info back then. They also had a call line to get recruiting info, like a 1-900 number.
I don’t remember the name of the recruiting magazine I got, but the cover had a picture of Garnett and said, “6’9” jewel with a jumper.” VERY disappointing when he went pro out of HS. Didn’t even know that was possible at the time.
Winston, and not necessarily because he would have had better stats at Michigan or more Big Ten success, but because (assuming everything else stays the same in this hypothetical - seeding and whatnot) he would have made a final and was the missing piece for a Michigan basketball program from 2017-2019 that didn't have a multi-level scorer at PG, but was right there in the tourney. Going from late career Walton, who was playing like an All-American, to Simpson's style of play gave me whiplash.
Simpson was great, but those Michigan teams ranked in the top 3 defensively (in large part thanks to him) while struggling to run an offense (ranked 35th and 24th) that could get good looks for other guys against equal defensive talent. They had to run a heavy P&R offense that looked downright bad at times when teams could switch/drop since Teske was iffy in the post and Simpson couldn't really go off the dribble. Games where we saw Poole have to shoot late clock step backs would have been less common IMO.
This hypothetical may remove Simpson from the team (would have been great to have them both to run out a defensive line up since Simpson's back ups weren't great), but I'd take Winston's offense and Teske/Livers/Matthews holding down the fort on defense. 2018 tourney run probably doesn't change and maybe they have enough firepower to stick with DiVincenzo (or at least have a 3rd option behind MAAR and Moe) and the following year TT doesn't just suffocate Michigan (Simpson had a ORTG of like 5 in that game or something comically bad).
Was thinking the same thing but feared getting negged to oblivion. To complete the thought, might Winston have benefited from Camp Sanderson — improved explosiveness, etc.?
I was readying the "ducks" comment just in case.
Not really sure on the Sanderson thing. He's a great S&C coach, though I'd presume MSU's isn't a slouch. Winston was always going to be a bit limited athletically, but the guy could do everything but sky over a defender and dunk. Even his jump shots were high off the ground so it didn't limit him shooting over guys really.
The problem with your post is your not talking about guys that had bad careers. Both guys were high draft choices in the NBA, have had solid careers so far and made millions. I am going to cheat a little since I do not think this was an opponent (but was a "recruit" and high draft choice) and say Mo Bamba. His NBA career hasn't been all that great and I think Beilein would have done 5x better with him than Smart. Also, big sigh thinking about Bamba coming off the bench on the 17-18 team.
Trevon Bluiett, Tyus Battle, Pete Nance, DJ Carton and I think Josh Christopher and Isaiah Todd both would have had a better start for their professional aspirations. I also think Evan Smotrycz, Cam Chatman and Colin Castleton made mistakes by transferring. Aubrey Dawkins would’ve done well staying as well
I think Castleton, Smotrycz, Chatman, and Dawkins probably made the right decisions.
Castleton is playing pretty well at Florida.
Da'Shawn Hand
KJ Costello
Terrele Pryor as QB instead of Steven Threet.