This week in Cardiology podcast RE B1G cancelation
The study used to cancel the B1G season continues to come under fire by Cardiologists and is discussed in this weeks episode at 3:30 in the link. With an altmetric score of 8860 and over 500,000 views, this flawed study is the very definition of covid misinformation. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/935699?src=soc_tw_200816_mscpedt_news_tho_twic&faf=1
August 16th, 2020 at 3:22 PM ^
"this flawed study is the very definition of covid misinformation"
nah, i'd give that title to you.
August 16th, 2020 at 3:32 PM ^
Truth doesn't necessarily have to matter to all, but I would bet it matters to the people around the players. It certainly matters to Chris Hutchinson. If we choose to ignore it then we shouldn't be surprised if the players that dedicated their career to Michigan lose faith in the institution that they have given so much to. At a baseline we owe them the truth.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:26 PM ^
"truth"
August 16th, 2020 at 8:41 PM ^
The main problem was the statement “the study was used” is a fabrication according to the news reports. A fabrication by you and by the twitter happy doctor. Why do you keep ignoring that and by ignoring it perpetuate that part of the lie?
There are also plenty of other studies. Why call only one into question and ignore the others.
Your new link’s author makes the points this study has flaws and probably should not be used to make a policy decision. And he says the study may have been used to make the decisions. The guy is smart enough to not say that the study was used because he doesn't know.
Your original post and link to a Twittering dr was where the dr said the study “was” used yet the SI article said they only speculated that this study might be one of many.
Stop perpetuating the lie
August 16th, 2020 at 9:22 PM ^
I am still waiting for the "many of other studies" that say anything near what this study found. None have been posted.
The degree to which this study has been torn apart is savage. And despite the publicity from it, Not. A. Single. Person. Is. Defending. It. Now......Not. One.
August 16th, 2020 at 10:34 PM ^
Grab yourself a nice hot cup of STFU. You could use Google like anyone else if you were so sincerely interested in finding the body of evidence. That's exactly how I found it, and the number of studies that show cardiovascular effects of Covid-19 with obesity as a highly correlated - if not causative - factor is huge.
August 17th, 2020 at 12:04 AM ^
SO, NO? But it gets Better!! (Note how I am linking everything I say)
Prof Darrel Francis was in contact with the authors of the study immediately after thinking their error was by mistake. https://twitter.com/ProfDFrancis/status/1294961510687612933
After discussion there was (according to him) agreement that there were glaring flaws and the paper would be retracted. https://twitter.com/ProfDFrancis/status/1294962502565007360
However they have not retracted, and the study is flawed to an extent that he now believes it to be a complete fabrication. https://twitter.com/ProfDFrancis/status/1294962745067044865
So he is pissed. And unleashes a now viral assault on the paper. https://twitter.com/ProfDFrancis/status/1294370975702822914
So...a paper with EXTREMELY serious flaws has led to huge policy decisions, as well as millions of people believing they have serious heart damage due to covid infection. This is a disaster. The paper has been reported on endlessly in cfb and news. It's a huge freaking deal.
August 17th, 2020 at 12:36 AM ^
I hate to say it but Venk and the UK guy tweet like typical narcissists. Francis deleted tweets that admitted he really didnt understand the research and where he only poked fun at one data point, yet he claims he deleted them becaise they were not important.
Now they are both going down big time to defend their reputations with an all out war. Without pointing out all the narciicistic examples I will just counter that a friend of mine is the head of cardiology for a large hospital group. He is not on twitter. He spends his time caring for patients, getting grants funded, and coordinating research. Your guys spend all their time making exaggerated statements to get followers and then when criticized, try to undermine critics with veiled high school like insults while declaring an all out war on anyone that could tarnish their reputation.
A good researcher wont respond to this BS. There are respected academic channels for vetting research that are trustworthy.
When I looked at Venks tweets before this blew up there is rarely an original thought. Rather its a lot of retweets with commentary to create controversy. They both know controversial tweets are what gets followers.
But notice, most critically, you and Venk still claim that this study is the one study that the BIG10 based its decision on. Without that there isn’t any controversy worth getting upset about. And that’s why you both keep avoiding or retracting that lie. As the SI article that talked about this research said: “Reports like these MAY have swayed decision-makers at the highest level of the school's 14 universities and in the Big Ten offices.” There were only speculating.
August 17th, 2020 at 12:47 AM ^
links...gaahhh so disappointed. friend brother gahhhh.
Furthermore--openly accusing academic misconduct is pretty much the most serious thing in research field. I mean, it would get a lot of followers I guess, but ya, you're kind of betting your career that you are right.
RE Venk: damn impressive publications. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nNET6osAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao
and Holy **** Darrell Francis https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=k3Sl9ogAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
an h-index of 90? That's absurd.
August 17th, 2020 at 2:19 AM ^
Bigfoot, you are swinging windmills. No nobody here is defending the study and no one has said it was used to make any decisions. In fact the authors state it should not be used.
And like I said, you have no voice here given that your repeated statements that this paper was the basis of any decisions is blatantly false. And this is the fifth time you’ve failed to even respond to that.
And clearly you cant even read. Friend not friends brother. And I haven’t accused anyone of misconduct. Stop your BS attempts to create controversy. Or maybe you are just throwing around terms you don't understand. Both your two twitter happy researchers publish excellent research. But I did absolutely question their character. As others here have.
Most academics volunteer their time on academic review boards to provide personal and confidential feedback to their piers. Public debates happen often but the back and forth is hard core facts and data and not this twitter bashing crap meant to get followers
And I don’t even need to cite a friend as example of character and integrity. There is this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci
Or even this namesake (Different) guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy
They rarely or don't tweet. Character and integrity count. Years of unheralded public service count. Great ground breaking research counts.
August 17th, 2020 at 2:38 AM ^
oh man, you are really, really not going to like what Francis says about playing sports. Consider it fair warning...do not click the link. Just don't do it. https://twitter.com/ProfDFrancis/status/1295116534415855616
August 17th, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^
Swing number 6
August 17th, 2020 at 12:48 PM ^
Missed swing number 6
August 17th, 2020 at 3:14 PM ^
Dude. You keep "linking" one fucking guys twitter account. That's not backing up your claims. It is clinging to one example you can find that aligns with what you wish to be true.
You honestly think that you are just that much smarter than almost everyone else? Clearly you do.
August 17th, 2020 at 5:04 AM ^
People like you make me vomit. The decision to suspend college sports was done so to protect the STUDENT-athletes. Maybe out of an abundance of caution. You think the university presidents really wanted to give up hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue? The only thing you seem to care about is to throw the students into the breach, damn the possible repercussions for them, simply for your entertainment, like gladiators in the arena. "Oops, we were wrong, sorry about your health issues. But hey, at least you got to play football."
August 16th, 2020 at 6:39 PM ^
There is no science behind this because there is no control group. There is no study which compares playing football versus not playing football. We're talking about an activity that includes some 30 to 40 hours a week. There's no data out there which shows the players are any more risk spending their time playing football versus not playing. Are they safer at school during this period? This move is purely speculative. Other sports are having sucess playing right now without being linked to major outbreaks. At least football is out in the open.
August 17th, 2020 at 12:00 AM ^
Tell that to the Boston Red Sox #1 pitcher this season who will not play a single game due to heart issues caused by COVID-19.
August 17th, 2020 at 1:24 AM ^
I clicked your link. I didnt see anywhere in the article where it stated he contracted covid from playing baseball. Maybe you could help me out here?
August 17th, 2020 at 10:59 AM ^
Not from playing baseball, but he will not be playing baseball due to heart issues from COVID.
Many kids have tested positive and many will continue to test positive, football or not. Why subject those kids to further risk of heart issues and potentially death when you don't have to?
August 17th, 2020 at 11:09 AM ^
"Football or not"
That is literally my point. There's no evidence that shows playing sports increases your risk of contracting the disease as compared to alternative activities. In anything exercise has been shown to help boost people's immune response and could potentially be helping people. People want to claim they know better than others but they arent providing and data to support their claims.
August 16th, 2020 at 6:39 PM ^
There is no science behind this because there is no control group. There is no study which compares playing football versus not playing football. We're talking about an activity that includes some 30 to 40 hours a week. There's no data out there which shows the players are any more risk spending their time playing football versus not playing. Are they safer at school during this period? This move is purely speculative. Other sports are having sucess playing right now without being linked to major outbreaks. At least football is out in the open.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:26 PM ^
Damn it, where is that super special 100 point upvote button when you need one?
August 16th, 2020 at 3:34 PM ^
From the website you linked:
"There are tons of reasons to cancel college sports. This study is not one of them."
I don't know nearly enough about cardiology to comment on the voracity of the study, but it seems flawed. It also seems like the same group that is educated enough on cardiology to comment on the flaws of the study also believe the there is sufficient reason to cancel college sports. And I assume that opinion comes from a cardiological standpoint, plus all else we know about the virus. So the same people who question this study still think the decision to cancel college sports is a sound one.
August 16th, 2020 at 3:42 PM ^
Exactly.
Also noted...“Reported coronavirus deaths yesterday: • France: 0 • United Kingdom: 0 • Canada: 4 • Germany: 6 • Italy: 6 • United States: 1,450.”
OP always cherry picks whatever fits his narrative and other actual facts be damned.
August 16th, 2020 at 6:44 PM ^
The way the deaths are being counted is suspect as we continue to count people dying "with" Covid as opposed to "from" Covid. I'm betting the way the cause of death due to Covid is being interpreted in these other countries you've mentioned is far different than in the USA. Follow the money......
August 16th, 2020 at 8:03 PM ^
The whole idea that the extra 200,000 people who died this year versus last year in the US is because of something else and we are miscounting the deaths is crazytown propaganda. There are not hoards of people dying of jumping out of airplanes without parachutes who also happen to have COVID. If anything we are undercounting the deaths.
August 16th, 2020 at 11:43 PM ^
Regardless of one’s political leanings, it will be interesting to see all cause number of deaths in 2020, 2021, 2022 versus each of the prior 10 years.
Many of this who perished from Covid probably did so only months before they would have without contracting C-19. There are obviously going to be more deaths in the 40-70 year old group from Covid than there would be from other respiratory illnesses, but there Ought to be fewer drinking and driving deaths and fewer on campus alcohol toxicity deaths, but increases in murder and suicide for 2020. There will likely be more cancer related death in the next couple of years due to decreased screening.
my guess is that 2020 will not look too much like an outlier for the year
August 16th, 2020 at 8:25 PM ^
Because the disease causes sepsis is many patients. Just read another article about the effect, this one from NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/magazine/covid-cytokine-storms.html
They are not over-counting deaths. If anything, they are undercounting who is dying because of their contracting the disease. Not everyone who has diabetes dies young, just like not every old person is a year from death. Stop pretending that those who catch the disease and die of a comorbidity or because of sepsis due to immune response we’re bound to die now whether or not they for the disease. It’s really offensive to humanity. Every time someone spouts these misinformed opinions they are insulting those who have died—essentially implying that their deaths weren’t avoidable or important enough to be considered save-able.
August 16th, 2020 at 7:34 PM ^
Lots of things are killing young adults these days, Covid isn't one of them.
August 16th, 2020 at 9:56 PM ^
Lets talk in 10 years
August 16th, 2020 at 3:43 PM ^
Agree with everything you say here. However would add there are always reasons to cancel anything, but we must remember there are reasons to maintain as well. Above all the conversation must be open and honest.
Edit: I don't agree that his reference to "there are many reasons to cancel" came from a cardiological standpoint. He certainly didn't say as much.
August 16th, 2020 at 3:55 PM ^
November 3rd.
Can't wait.
August 16th, 2020 at 4:07 PM ^
I remind all to please stay far away from political talk. It doesn't help at all and there is zero factual basis for it. Please keep the conversation honest and based in facts.
August 16th, 2020 at 4:21 PM ^
It may not help, but there is significant factual basis for it (much of it contained in direct quotes from the person in question),
August 16th, 2020 at 4:46 PM ^
It's a 100% factual that trolling the libs has not been an effective means to combat this virus. Granted I haven't seen a realistic plan from the Democrats either but it's bound to be better than people are only wearing masks because they don't like me.
August 16th, 2020 at 8:49 PM ^
Go fuck yourself.
August 17th, 2020 at 10:11 AM ^
TIMMMAAY---please ratchet it down a couple notches, I received a valid complaint late last night and more info early this morning about this particular post. Gotta keep it more civil than that, OK?
Not going to take any action right now other than a first warning but if it continues you'll force me to take other additional steps to put a stop to it. It's in your best interest to show a little more self-restraint.
This goes for everyone from here forward: inappropriate comments such as the one addressed here will be handled with a warning, followed by additional steps(s) up to and including shutting down user accounts. We all need to de-stress a little; telling someone to "go fuck yourself" (or similar demeaning rhetoric) does the opposite and has no place on the MGoBoard.
I'd like to think the vast majority on this board are a 'cut above' what you see on most other message boards. I don't think asking for a measure of civility is asking too much. And I certainly don't want to ban otherwise good board members and/or engage in censorship over language, but when it's used to demean or insult others, I will. An example: just last week two users got the banhammer from me for insults involving inappropriate use of the word "retard".
August 17th, 2020 at 3:21 PM ^
Okay. I'd argue that I didn't insult him, merely instructed him to uh... enjoy himself.
But okay.
It's not okay for this guy to keep doing what he's doing, constantly, and then fall back on "no politics", while he's blatantly lying and advocating for his "side" of the political debate (this is definitely a political topic in general, no way around it unfortunately). He's just goading people by saying that, and knows it. So I guess I'm just saying that it bothers me that I'm the one getting chastised here.
August 18th, 2020 at 12:55 AM ^
Sorry for the lengthy delay in responding, but 1) I just saw your response and 2) like I responded in the mod sticky thread 6 hours ago, I've been out of town spending the afternoon and evening with family (only time I've looked at the board since 4pm or so was to only once peek in the mod sticky to see if anything here was en fuego.
Is there anything that ISN'T somehow related to politics these days? I get your point there and don't disagree. Bigfoot may have been goading people, as you claim, but did it warrant the graphic description, on your part, of what he should do to himself?
I'll reiterate: these are stressful times, why make it worse by spewing personal and graphic insults? I think the vast majority on the board should be able to expect a certain level of decorum and civility on the part of all. Is it really too much to ask for? I had a complaint in the mod sticky thread and promised the complaintants I'd investigate and take action if it was warranted.
As for "chastisement", yeah, there was a small measure of that involved, but I thought I made it clear by using bold type that I was directing my comments to the broad audience much more than just towards you.
August 16th, 2020 at 7:25 PM ^
This country will be even more of a freakshow after Nov 3.
August 16th, 2020 at 4:04 PM ^
Here is a link to the episode a week ago discussing the paper before it was involved in B1G decision (starts at 4:00). This quote stood out to me: "Professor Francis specifically wrote not to jump to malfeasance conclusions, but these aberrations once he points them out are pretty obvious." (@8:35) https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/934881
August 16th, 2020 at 4:02 PM ^
It’s already canceled so let’s pretend we did the right thing.
August 16th, 2020 at 4:19 PM ^
Not sure we need to pretend. I live near a university that is starting in person classes tomorrow and have seen a lot of students in groups walking around town together and going to the restaurants/bars, no masks.
Also, wife and I took a leisurely drive around the back roads yesterday (early evening) after running some errands. We counted nearly a dozen large parties at various houses (maybe open houses or family gatherings - not really sure) with >> 10 people gathered together in the yards and porches - no masks.
With the way people are behaving these days... I won't be surprised if we see another case spike in the next few weeks.
August 16th, 2020 at 5:11 PM ^
Out of curiousity, what state and direction. I live in central TN and that stuff never really stopped, here.
August 16th, 2020 at 7:26 PM ^
I'm at Western Carolina University (English Prof.), and our classes start tomorrow (Monday the 17th). From what I've seen in my limited time on campus, there are a lot of students following Mask rules etc. but there have been A LOT who aren't or are only doing a half-assed job. I don't suspect we are the national exception. College campuses are almost certainly going to blow up with COVID cases. Sports or no Sports the BIG Ten's call seems to me a case of the inevitable. Whether Sports were called off last week or next week, there is no real way they make sense and all this bluster about it seems to largely miss the point. We are in a PANDEMIC(!) and the Federal government can't muster a coherent response. Putting unpaid college athletes at needless risk so coaches and ADs are able to better justify their massive salaries (I know the money these sports generates does more than this but my bet is that Ryan Day's concerns about the lost football season has more to do with his salary than the Swim team's scholarships) seems to be misplaced concern.
Sure, maybe this particular study isn't air tight but it's not like this virus isn't presenting an abnormal risk and it's not like we can't all guess what will happen (and is already happening) when college resumes in full.
I LOVE college football and am crushed that there won't be a season this fall. But all this Monday Morning QBing on the BIG Ten's decision seems really misguided to me.
August 16th, 2020 at 4:14 PM ^
Is it also misinformation that 10 big ten athletes were Recently diagnosed with myocarditis?
“if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a conspiracy theory by big duckhunt”
I don’t get your obsession with this study. Is it poorly powered? Yes. is it definitive? No. there’s a difference between Acknowledging those and saying the paper is “under fire” and “falsified” as you have claimed multiple times
August 16th, 2020 at 4:21 PM ^
Is there anything to link them being B1G athletes with them being diagnosed with myocarditis? Are non athletes not getting myocarditis?
August 16th, 2020 at 4:24 PM ^
Myocarditis occurs at a baseline rate of 10 per 100,000 people a year
much more common during typical flu season
Is it conclusively Covid? No, but I’ll refer back to the duck thing
August 16th, 2020 at 5:20 PM ^
I didn't ask for a link between myocarditis and covid, I asked for a link between myocarditis and being B1G athletes.
August 16th, 2020 at 6:26 PM ^
Strenuous exercise is believed to increase risk. I believe the recommendation is a 6-8 week recovery before resuming rigorous activity.