Warde Throws Water On Idea of Hanging Fab Five Banners
If I recall and understood the Ed Martin scandal correctly, he was front running tons of kids with loans that he'd hope to cash on in future when they were in NBA... and had he not been given free tickets by Fisher, then he'd have been considered not associated with the program. Is this correct?
That it came down to the free tickets only ?
The ol' triple post. Haven't seen that in a while.
To be fair, plenty of other programs "got caught"; UM was just stupid enough to give themselves damn near the death penalty instead of telling the NCAA to fuck off like every other school since has done.
The NCAA used to have far sharper teeth; schools like Maryland and Texas A&M got relatively strict punishments for transgressions related to player payments. And honestly, Michigan courted this somewhat by being so popular and disruptive. People think the NCAA is restrictive now, but when the only media covering them were beat writers who needed access, they were supremely draconian, and a bunch of freshmen doing the cabbage patch in their baggy shorts and black socks was going to draw their ire.
No, the problem was that the NCAA could piggyback on the FBI investigation to get the evidence it needed.
We didn't get "nearly the death penalty" in any event. We lost one scholarship a year for four years, and were banned for the postseason for a year. What was much worse was hiring Ellerbe, who was an utter disaster of a coach.
FFS, if the NCAA will tolerate coaches admitting to paying players, I think this Michigan of ours could allow the banners. We're so damn clean we lost the best basketball coach in the history of our program.
Hang NEW banners.
This. Is. The. Answer.
Good. Discussion over.
Warde's answer annoys me even more b/c this band dweeb gets to stay on his ridiculously high horse.
Warde was a HS All American defensive tackle when he came to UM. He's the platonic opposite of a "band dweeb", which is totally a phrase that a mature person uses to describe someone he disagrees with.
Jesus, I'm referring to Bando, not Warde.
How the hell do you possibly misconstrue the two.
Take a chill pill. Jesus doesn't post here any more.
I've got a close friend who was a MMB member (trombone) in the mid '80s, and he'd correct you: it's "band geek."
Plus he probably could kick TheCube's internet tough guy ass.
Coach Juwan said it’s something that’ll be revisited when he sits down with Director Warde and President Schlissel
Warde clearly said it was a university decision made in the past and it’s out of his hands.
Discussion not over.
See, here's the thing when you understand that the University of Michigan is more than an athletics program: The discussion is over. A basketball coach does not wag the dog, even if it's Juwan Howard.
As pointed out below, we still can have great memories of the Fab Five. And I do. But the banners are gone. They will remain gone as a testament to Michigan's punishment for breaking the rules. And that's been the case since 2002.
Again, as Warde just told us all, discussion over.
It's not UNC forging education departments. It's not Penn State/MSU/OSU in terms of sheer moral reprehensibility. Nobody outside of college athletics cares or even has heard about it.
It's an athletics based decision.
No, it's not.
But do continue to lose sleep over this. The banners are gone. Discussion over.
Is it? The head coach just said at a press conference that it will be revisited.
I can see how some get annoyed by your holier than thou facade.
Would it shock you to hear that he looks down on those who have been lifelong fans but didn’t attend the school and are just fans?
Didn’t Warde say or allude tonsone way of acknowledging or showing the banners in some other way? Maybe that’s where this is headed. Take them out of archives but don’t raise them
A display in Crisler? Museum? Stop hiding them and put them out there for a historical look at the era - good and bad. Then let people discuss. But don’t celebrate the breaking of rules (no matter how stupid) with raising the banners
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I respect that decision. Those banners were achieved by breaking rules via paying recruits. We all remember the games, and no one can take those memories or these documentaries away from us. We don’t need to cheapen the image of our university by hanging banners that were achieved partially via illegal payments to players (regardless of the loose affiliation of the booster with the University).
Exactly. We all want to shit all over 2013 Louisville and bagmen and OSU tattoos and all that nonsense - which is fine. But you can't really do that and claim to be above it while you simultaneously flaunt your trophies from your own rule breaking. If Michigan's above that, then be above it.
I have no problem with the banners sitting in a closet. I also wouldn't have much of an issue if they were restored to the rafters. But that crap is inconsequential to the future success of Juwan and the basketball team. We didn't hire the Fab 5. We didn't hire Howard so that we can reunite the Fab 5. We didn't hire Howard to celebrate the Fab 5 and j/o to their 25-year-old tainted accomplishments.
Our topic today is "Juwan Howard is now the Michigan Basketball coach." Focus, people.
Right. Not hanging them isn't the only reasonable call, but it is a reasonable call under the circumstances, and none of that should affect the current program. Time to move on, as the University clearly has.
Why do you want to be "above" and follow a rule that is morally ambiguous to begin with? Especially one that is not enforced by the NCAA, another morally dubious organization designed to exploit student-athletes?
You remain the poster with permanent zero points I most want to have points. Some positive some negative, but your comments generally elicit some urge to vote one way or the other without pissing me off.
Virtual +1 sir.
Edit: Clarity, Reggie is who I'm referring to here. It doesn't seem clear to me in how this site does comments.
Agree with your first paragraph and your "banners sitting in a closet" phrase got me to thinking about what is missing in contemporary debate and issue resolution: compromise. How about if they hang them in the Davidson Player Development Center or possibly in a case in the Crisler Concourse with an accurate story about what went down and why they aren't hanging from the rafters? A bit of recognition for a couple of great seasons and a bit of transparency on why Michigan doesn't deem them "rafter worthy".
This is 2019, we don't do compromise anymore sir.
Actually, that's a good idea. Might not be a bad idea give constant visual reminders as to how something so seemingly minor can cost the university a great deal.
Unfortunately, most, including wolverine fans still don’t understand the ed martin thing.
1. The Fab 5 were not paid to go to Michigan.
2. Ed Martin acted entirely on his own and was involved with kids from other schools as well.
3. Ed Martin knew these kids way before they attended Michigan. Was he a criminal, yes, but to the kids he was just someone who had their back.
4. Michigan’s problem was letting Ed Martin be around the program. Fisher knew Martin wasn’t kosher but the kids wanted him around.
5. Allegations of hundreds of thousands of dollars given to Webber are just that...Allegations
6. Even if Chris Webber received money, it wasn’t to influence him. If it happened, it went to his parents and/or possibly after he left Michigan. See Mitch Albom’s opinion...
7. Ed Martin gave money to players post Fab 5. This happened due to the fact that Martin was running numbers and needed to launder his money.
The most overrated scandal in the history of sports.
6.a. Chris Webber was an MSU lean until near the end. (My memory's a little fuzzy on this, but wasn't there some issue with MSU fans and their actions at a game that he attended that sent him to Michigan?)
The last time he commented on it he basically drooled all over Tom Izzo and then said that he would have gone to Michigan State if Izzo had been the coach and basically that he wished he had gone to Michigan State so...... there's that.
Webber never said he wished he attended MSU, that's pathetic.
Really.
Like I said Webber never said he wishes he went to moo u.
Did we read the same article?
Minnesota committed recruiting violations in an attempt to get Webber, and MSU turned them in. Webber was not happy about that.
Bingo.
Thanks. If this is the case, I wish at some point, not at Juwan's introductory press conference,
Ward Manuel or Mark Schlissel would address this better. The perception is that Michigan was
cheating, just like a lot of other schools do, but that's not the case. They were not intentionally
paying players to come to UM.
Kudasi -- nothing personal, but that's crap. Yes, receiving money from Ed Martin is different than getting it from a coach, but it's also against the rules and for good reason. Imagine what it would be like if that wasn't against the rules. Money would fly and the whole scene would be an even bigger sham than it is now.
And by the way, if they do change the rules to let players get paid, the banners should still stay down. It's simple -- some of our players cheated. The program owned up and moved on, which is the right thing to do.
tim4landg,
What's crap?
There are a lot of people that think the Ed Martin scandal was about Ed Martin paying players to attend UM. That's bullshit. Ed Martin was using kids to launder his money.
What exactly are you disputing?
How is it you claim so much authority about the Ed Martin scandal, yet get so much of the narrative completely wrong?
I think you're being intentionally obtuse. Maybe Martin was laundering, but are you seriously debating that he picked college basketball players to receive money because they were college basketball players?
I've never opened the NCAA rulebook, but I bet it doesn't say "Hey, you're not allowed to accept tens of thousands of dollars from someone as an incentive to attend a certain school, but you can if they just want to give you money." I bet it says college athletes can't accept money, period.
I assume the school warns athletes that they risk their eligibility if they don't steer completely clear of that kind of thing. If they don't then the program deserves to be violated for that.
Does anyone know definitively that Michigan intentionally paid players during the Ed Martin era?
Did they know that Ed Martin was paying players and didn't do enough to stop it?
Was Ed Martin attempting to pay players to specifically play for the University of Michigan,
or were there other reasons (laundering money, attempting to curry favor, etc.).
The reason I ask is IF Michigan was intentionally paying players to influence them to attend UM,
then they should never raise the banners again. They broke the rules and should pay the price.
I haven't seen that evidence though.
Except that there was NO successs achieved through paying players because not one single player was paid to come nor to stay or to play, not in ANY way, shape or form!
LOTS of kids were gifted or loaned $ by Martin, NOT just athletes and NOT just good athletes, NOT just major college or potential pro athletes and as far as those that were the high potential bball players, fucking sure as fuckity fuck NOT just kids that went to Michigan!!!
EVERYTHING was PERSONAL twixt Martin and players without any connection to where they went to school!
Either ALL the schools with Martin paid/loaned players should've been spanked or NONE, but just as with bball and fb officiating, the rules are different for Michigan!!!
The real scandal and real criminals are ALL the schools, leagues and NCAA that that take ALLLLLLLLL the money from the disgusting advertisers via broadcasters, and from ticket, food, parking and merchandising which is produced SOLELY by the fucking players without paying them!
LIARS! THIEVES! HYPOCRITES!!!!
I wish we could make a diary thread about what really happened. Does anybody honestly KNOW enough to speak with authority on this? My impression is that it started as a “legit” relationship between Weber and Martin but the issue became when Weber introduced other players to him.
Mateen wasn’t going to get benefits from Martin if he went to MSU. Our guys took him to incentivize him to come to UM. Also, Weber lied to the grand jury.
Those are the two caveats that ultimately took us down from my recollection. And I think you are fooling yourself if you believe this didn’t turn into a recruiting “benefit” for coming to UM.
Warde came prepared to answer, and had a very good explanation that the tweets don't really capture. I think it's fair to disagree, but it's not like he hasn't thought about the banners before.
Warde works for Michigan, and it’s a Michigan’s decision, not his and not Juwan’s. As AD, his job is to relay what Michigan wants him to relay. I’d be willing to bet his private opinion on the matter is different than the opinion he expressed, but his opinion isn’t the issue.
I don't like Warde. We should hire someone better.
There. I said it.
Big balls saying that here considering how everyone loves Warde...