For those who tell you the spread won't work in the B10
ESPN just ran a list during the WV-Pitt game:
Offensive Formations of the Top 10 teams-
Spread:
Florida, Texas, TCU, Boise St, Oregon
Pro Style:
Alabama, Pitt
Triple Option:
Georgia Tech
And my favorite-
"Undecided":
Ohio State
if only you could be good and run spread football...
(And while the competition may not be the best, it's not exactly tropical in Boise)
Edit: I just noticed in their usual wisdom ESPN had 9 top 10 teams. The other would be Cinncy, also a spread team.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:04 PM ^
It's about having the players and experience to execute the playbook.
Say what you want about our team this year, we definitely saw improvement on offense.
Give it 1-2 more years and we'll be humming on all cylinders and unstoppable
November 27th, 2009 at 10:58 PM ^
You are absolutely right. The spread will and can work in the Big 10 but you need to be able to "execute" it without turning the ball over as much as UM did. It's as obvious as Pam Anderson's fake tatas that you can't win games when you fumble the ball as much as UM did this year. If UM can back to sound fundamentals like holding onto the ball and tackling the opposing player on the first try, they'll win more games. At least that's what we hope.
Go Blue.
November 28th, 2009 at 9:50 PM ^
Has fake tatas? Huh. That one totally slipped by me.
You sure?
November 28th, 2009 at 1:20 AM ^
the media always trying to hit Michigan when they are down. They are all trying to twist everyone's words and use information that is inaccurate. There are a lot of stories out there about Rich's press conference after the OSU game. They are all trying to make Rich look like he is the devil or something. Of course if Michigan would some how win the Big 10 next year then they will all be saying that they were telling everyone to just be patient. I actually agree with everything Rich said in his press conference. I just hope the players and recruits don't read all of this negative press and believe all of it. I know that OSU is scared because they know that if Michigan gives Rich time that their streak of beating Michigan will be gone and reversed. They know that they will not be able to compete with that much speed.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:23 PM ^
lol.. evidence for the spread -
Big Ten record vs spread offense teams outside of the big ten:
1(Cap one bowl) - 4204348349343573492394
November 27th, 2009 at 10:54 PM ^
or when Urban Meyer went WTF when Henne gave the read option type hand off to mike hart on the first play!
i.e. us running some spread in Capital one bowl.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:12 AM ^
There was not one zone read play in that game, FWIW. I don't think any citizen of this planet actually would buy a Henne keeper.
In fact, Lloyd Carr went out of his way during his interview that game to say that Michigan was NOT running a spread offense.
EDIT: for a typo
November 28th, 2009 at 1:35 AM ^
I pointed you for it, because you make a true statement. But let's not forget that that alone does not a spread make. It wasn't Rich's spread, that's for sure, but truth is we got away from the zone read a lot this year (after strangely forcing it more last year). A lot of the principles were more of a passing spread. Not that far off from the type of spread the Patriots run quite a bit of. But what do they know? ;-)
November 27th, 2009 at 10:11 PM ^
I know im going to get negged for this but...I have proof the spread works in the Big Ten. Remember (sigh) '06 Ohio State.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:16 PM ^
I don't think too many people here doubt it's going to work. The question, as we know, can Coach Rod get the defense where it needs to be in the next two years.
I sure hope so, I love what he brings to Michigan. The people who don't embrace change, are the ones who get left behind.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:07 AM ^
"The people who don't embrace change, are the ones who get left behind. "
I prefer to call these people "mentally challenged," although I appreciate your diplomatic efforts.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:22 PM ^
Yeah did you see the part where the commentators said that rich rod deserves a lot of credit for those teams who are in the top 10 & runs the spread.oregon & florida to be exact. We have the pioneer of the spread zone option read.rich will take the big10 by storm like he did with the big east.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:23 PM ^
That was pretty good, but I found more humor in how Bob Davie kept saying "West Virginia is just trying to get to where they were before 2007, so badly" over and over again.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:49 PM ^
I'm pretty sure that Michigan fans would like to get back to where they were in 2007 (9-4 record) too.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:16 AM ^
Well, I am one who will quibble with that. I definitely haven't enjoyed Michigan's two losing seasons. However, it's pretty clear to me that Rich Rod is going to EXCEED where Michigan was in 2007. The talent level is quite impressive and is very young, and GERG is a fantastic coordinator. Michigan will be back to 9-4 next year.
November 28th, 2009 at 2:41 AM ^
although I was getting permanently frustrated with Michigan throughout the Henne-Hart-Manningham years.
November 28th, 2009 at 2:39 AM ^
that's a good one, raleighwood, LOL.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:25 PM ^
If you have the right players it will work. With equal talent on the college level the spread is the more potent scheme. It will never be so in NFL because you can't afford the risk to the quarterback.
Ohio State's problem is that Pryor is not a good passer and that will always limit what they can do versus good defenses. He can roll over weaker teams but the better ones will expose him.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:26 PM ^
The best examples of the spread destroying Big Ten teams come from three games:
'06 OSU vs. Florida
The Horror
'07 Oregon vs. Michigan
I'm really excited for what we're going to be. I would LOVE to hang a 41-14 on OSU next year.
EDIT: For the record, Florida did put 35 points on us in the Capital One Bowl. Luckily, their secondary sucked.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:28 PM ^
1st off the spread, as has many different offenses, has already worked in the Big 10. NW, PU, Illinois and PSU/tOSU have used it to varying degrees for many, many years. I honestly don't get the infatuation people have with the spread or the belief that it is "new". In my opinion we are only a few years away from some of these kids seriously second guessing their decisions to play in a spread offense because of the difficulties some kids have of adjusting at the next level. Over the last couple years multiple NFL people have mentioned the problems they have with "evaluating" and retraining some of these kids. As a rival fan I was giddy when UM went to the spread as I personally thought in some capacities it would level their advantages. As a huge college football fan, a Big 10 fan and a debater of sorts, I was shocked they went that direction.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:37 PM ^
Whenever I hear NFL scouts mumble that shit in the future I will laugh and think of probable 2009 Rookie of the Year Percy Harvin.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:44 PM ^
Exception, not the rule.
November 27th, 2009 at 11:58 PM ^
Yeah , Michael Crabtree really had a tough time adjusting. So has Chris Johnson. And Drew Brees.
Rashard Mendenhall. Wes Welker. Joe Flacco. Matt Forte.
Yeah, all those guys suck.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:37 AM ^
You caught me. I said none of them worked and you proved me wrong. Solid work.
PS....................Percy Harvin, Crabtree and many of the WR have worked as it is a different adjustment. However, many linemen have gone undrafted and so have the QB's Some of the record setting WR's have struggled too, but lets not worry about them, because obviously we are dealing with definitives as they relate to your agenda. Clearly there are only points for your side.............insert Heavy eye rollhere.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:48 AM ^
John Navarre, Drew Henson (I know, I know), Scott Driesbach, Todd Collins, Chris Perry, David Terrelle, Anthony Thomas, the mighty Braylon Edwards, and the list goes on and that's just Michigan guys.
Dude, they question was about the transition from college spread to NFL ranks. If you actually looked at data, I'd bet that there's no actual difference.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:10 AM ^
Shall we look at record setting QB's 1st.................Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't make it so. I'll bet their are 50 articles chronicling the problems. listen this is dumb. Honestly I don't care. My team doesn't run the spread your's does. If you love it so be it. I don't, but don't accuse me of making crap up when you know I'm not.
Chad
November 28th, 2009 at 1:25 AM ^
Why wont you actually address the point? Maybe I haven;t been clear. My point is that scheme doesn't matter. I have provided counter points to the idea that NFL talent developed under the spread can not thrive in the NFL as well as the idea that NFL talent developed under pro-style schemes thrives under in the NFL. All you have is, basically, "disagree all you want, you're wrong because of a private reason I'll keep to myself."
If there are 50 articles, give me 5.
Restating, the scheme doesn't matter and you haven't demonstrated anything to the contrary.
November 28th, 2009 at 8:41 AM ^
that these kids are being brought in to play and WIN for the University of Michigan. Not to get them ready for the NFL. If they are good enough and have the skill set while playing here, it won't matter what scheme they played in.
This is a Michigan blog and we should be worried about what they can do for Blue.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:37 PM ^
Why are we even still having this debate? The 'spread is dead' meme is only used by people that are a few crayons short of a tool shed.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:51 PM ^
dealing with a short tool shed are those short changing ANY system. The option still works, so does the flex bone/veer, wing T, etc, etc...............If you believe in it, can teach it and are passionate about it, it will work. To me a Pro set that incorporates all things is the best. Not to mention play action, down field running games with a top shelf TE are almost impossible to stop when they are executing properly. That and increasing your touches also increases the oppositions touches. Call me old fashion but I want to limit your touches and control the game.
November 27th, 2009 at 11:00 PM ^
Then why does only, now 1, of the top 10 teams currently run it?
November 28th, 2009 at 8:36 AM ^
If my team is better than your team and my team will gain more yards per play than your team on average, then I want us both to have more touches, not less.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:43 PM ^
the weather in W.Virginia isnt drastically better than it is here. Not to mention playing on the road vs. teams like UConn, Rutgers, Pitt and Cincy didnt seem to hamper WVUs offense all that much. Not going to look up the weather almanac but WVU scored.
45, 38 and 45 points in November in Morgantown and Cincy in 05.
45, 42, and 41 in Morgantown and Pittsburgh in 06.
38, 28 and 66 in Morgantown and Cincy in 07
All of the above games in November where gets just as or almost as cold, windy and rainy as it does in the midwest.
Why, because he had better players for his system.
November 27th, 2009 at 11:04 PM ^
or did he have Pat White. Do people realize that West Va only has like 11 kids in the NFL right now. While teams like UM have 33, OSU has 37, PSU has 29 and Iowa have 25. Furthermore out of those 11 only-TWO are defensive players. They did not ever play that good a D regardless of where the proletariat suggest they ranked. In fact they actually play better D now and frankly have had better recruiting. Say what you want about Stewarts game management, but he recruits better than RR and plays stouter D. I watched them tonite and have several times.
Furthermore of the top 14 scoring Defenses (not always the best indicator for the record) 9 are Pro style O's. If you count Oklahoma who still goes under center quite a bit & Air Force (veer/option) it's 11.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:13 AM ^
How does that break down if you limit the time frame to when WVU actually started sending players to the NFL? Also, Penn State is a spread Team and has been for at least 3 years now. And how can you leave Florida off this list with a straight face? If you put Florida, West Virginia, and Penn State up against Michigan, Ohio State, and Iowa over a reasonable time frame, say the last four drafts, I bet the numbers are much more even.
As for recruiting, did WVU recruit a better class than Michigan in 2009? How's 2010 looking? There's no data to support your point that Stewart recruits better then Rodriguez. Quite the opposite actually.
Connecting defensive production to offensive scheme is...uh....well....silly (which is code for dumb in my world). At least without putting forth some data suggesting they are correlated which I have yet to see anyone do.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:12 AM ^
guys are data hounds but seriously this isn't that tough.
Under RR (verify yourself) they routinely recruited in the 30's to 50's. Stewarts best class has been 27th the past two years. RR's best was the class Stewart finished in 2007 (23rd). The rest were in the 30's with many in the 40's or 50's.(52nd in 2005 I believe) UM helps him recruit now. Of course they didn't recruit better than UM, do you understand the point?!
Ironically you unwittingly added PSU to the list (people conveniently call them spread or not spread to further their point) when they have dropped a little recently per NFL talent as has UF. Both had in the upper 30's awhile back. Iowa on the other hand is rising every year seemingly. Even when they were down. That's because they run their practices and whole operation like an NFL team and you hear it talked about every Pro Day.
As for the offense to defense correlation if you don't see it now you wont after I explain it, but in short. The more you limit a teams' touches and control the ball, burn clock the better your defense typically plays. Why do you think Iowa plays the way they do? They are defense 1st, 2nd and 3rd and so is Nick Saban. I'd take either coach over most (not all) but most every spread coach.
Chad
November 28th, 2009 at 1:18 AM ^
And while $aban may be one of the best coached in the game, if you don't mind all that cheating stuff, let's not really be putting Kirk up there. I mean, he was almost fired like a year ago. All that NFL talent he keeps sending, and he was scraping the bottom of the Big Ten. Though it was the police blotter that had him in more trouble, admittedly.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:31 AM ^
I'm sorry. I'm not an Iowa homer and I know we have our failings. Many of which start with our moronic fans IMO. Yes he was being chastised and we do have serious offensive failings from year to year (game to game really) As for our NFL talent we are no USC or tOSU or even UM, but defensively and TE/O-line we are pretty darn good. Even in 2006/2007 we had several future NFLers. So I'd agree we had some serious coaching deficiencies, though I 'd say they were as much character and effort related as anything. But I must also say, I personally believe KF and staff are better talent evaluators than they are even coaches. You may not know this but we have like 13 plus 2 star kids in the NFL right now. Many of which played as Frosh.
Our failings aside I still believe in the system. I love play action passing and Pro set O!
November 28th, 2009 at 1:50 AM ^
I'm ok with heated discussions and won't neg you for them like some, as long as you come back with fact and can back it up. As long as someone isn't being profane, or insulting or ridiculous, bring it on!
And I'll think you'll find as long as someone isn't trolling, a reasonable opposing fan is welcome here. And it's not like there's a lot of Iowa hate here, other than normal Big Ten rivalry. I know a lot of people wanted Iowa to win the conference over OSU for sure, and even Penn State. There's been a lot of good history between our two schools. And I'd guess they're falling 7th or lower on most people's conference hate...though big 80's fans may differ...throw in a half dozen OOC obnoxious teams, and that doesn't even rate.
And speaking of which, if we can put up with an Irish fan because he's reasonable, a Hawkeye is no problem. Just be ready to bring it strong!
November 28th, 2009 at 1:19 AM ^
You're a smug mofo ain't ya? I actually like it. Go ;head with your weak-ass self. But answer the question. All you have is a hypothesis; that’s an unproven concept in case you didn’t learn that in college (making an assumption there). I acknowledge it as a valid concept but until correlation is demonstrated, that’s all it is. You either have not or can not demonstrated such evidence. That was the point of that statement. Capiche? (P.S. That means “do you understand” in Italian).
Now that I have you backtracking on the Stewart v. Rodriguez in direct recruiting competition over the last two season lets talk about advantages. Yes, RichRod has the Michigan brand to help his ability to recruit. Stewart has WVU’s national profile, built by RichRod, as a brand to help his ability to recruit. This can’t be denied. Stewart’s ability to recruit can’t be assessed until his recruits are actually starting for his team. That is not yet the case.
As for the idea that Iowa is becoming an NFL pipeline…okay. Yes Iowa is the most awesome producer of NFL talent in the conference. Nay, the conferences.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:43 AM ^
I think we can come to some agreement as I said above I get you guys and I do apologize for being a tick disdainful. You are taking some serious liberties here if you think I was back tracking. You just missed what I was saying. I hope you see if nothing else I debate for a living so I'd never enter into an argument that compares the recruiting power of the winningest program in history to West Va that has sucked for most of their existence. I also never said Iowa was a talent producing juggernaut as I wouldn't have offered up their obviously deficient number had that been my intent. I find it interesting that little ole Iowa who recruits classes from 25th to 50th is the 18th best at the time and apparently moving up.
I also can't give RR to much credit as the best classes West Va has signed have come since he left. As far as what Stewart does with them that is coaching and development, not necessarily recruiting, though I'll concede it is obvious Iowa's classes have been way better than their rankings and if that's your bent I concur.
Chad
November 28th, 2009 at 2:00 AM ^
First off, stop insulting my intelligence. You went from saying Stewart is a better recruiter than RichRod to Stewart is better than RichRod when on a level playing field, which is impossible to assertain because Stewart has never had to recruit without having the benefit of the RichRod effect. You want to say his effort has nothing to do with what Stewart has been able to land but this is a stupid premise. Flat out.
If this is what you do for a living, you suck. And not in a “damn this guy is good” sorta way. More like in a “damn, I can’t believe this guy sucks this much” sorta way.
Iowa is irrelevant to Michigan’s aspirations. Sorry bud but, Michigan aspires to more than 2 half championships every 10 years. I respect Kirk Ferentz and what he has been able to do at Iowa, of all places. But, stop using Iowa as a proxy for Michigan. It works in the very short term; it’s terrible in the significant term.
November 28th, 2009 at 10:39 AM ^
i could easily argue that WVa has had a better program the last 30 years than iowa.
November 28th, 2009 at 2:27 PM ^
And if you can do that, you might as well go for history. Because Iowa was garbage before Hayden.
November 28th, 2009 at 7:44 AM ^
Why has Stewart been recruiting well? Maybe because RR turned WVU into a prominent enough program to draw in those recruits.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:13 AM ^
Actually I forgot to give your Florida's numbers. I usually include, them because people are shocked, but I thought I'd hold them out this time. The number is and this is with a straight face and off of ESPN's NFL players per school page..................31, as I said it was higher a couple eyars back. Being honest, which I know many can't be....again with the heavy eye roll........there are many reason's why this may be and it isn't just because of their Offensive system. But it does show, they aren't necessarily the most physically gifted and that D is still they key.
The highest for the record are tOSU, USC, Georgia, LSU......you know Pro set teams.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:25 AM ^
So if they're sending far less talent to the NFL, but winning the college games, beyond being better for, you know, the actual college teams, it must mean that they are being better coached, or have a better system, if they're winning and besting those other teams with less talent.
And LSU has morfed in a couple of posts from a spread team to a mixed offense to primarily a pro set team? And if you mean that's what they're doing now...how's that working out for them?
BTW, I'm watching Boise right now who carved up that Sooner defense you wanted to include on your great defense list....as did Florida, and GASP West Virginia.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:49 AM ^
I almost edited that out as I saw that it had an obvious rebuttal, but it has other outlets and I so love the debate game. As it is however I have to rock out tonite as I am in boo koo trouble from my wife right now. These board suck me right in. I've actually avoided them for sometime. May have to go back to that. C-ya and good convo.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:59 AM ^
It IS addictive. Kept me on here much longer than I planned. But keeps the mind fresh.
And don't be afraid to hop back in. I'm sure there's dome discussion you'll agree with. And on this board, I've seen people dig out of much deeper negative point holes. Sometimes multiple times. I think I've had posts lose more points than you have total. LOL
November 28th, 2009 at 2:04 AM ^
There are a lot more of us than there are of you here... ;-)