- Member for
- 4 years 32 weeks
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Mizzou, KU................||
TT, I'm not sure Okie St does.............quite a bit is 15 snaps out of 70, and with their TB's plus Qb issues I'd honestly like to know that answer, myself.
Other wise please stop, your and my convo has been more advanced than this.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||You are very literally a crack smoker...........||
Go find the quote I don’t know how to do it, but it was absolutely the very 1st thing I said. So filtered thru, (again the 1st thing I said), it helps to put the following in context. You are so desperate to make up or infer something different than what was said you are making yourself look silly.
The box you quoted did indeed say what you posted, but that doesn’t say UM will struggle because of the spread. It says you will “still” struggle vs good defensive teams regardless. Point being spread UM isn’t any more likely to dominate good defenses than non-spread UM. Holy crap I can’t believe how far you have reached for this slice of peyote. And here in lies the rub………….you need that not to be true. I don’t have vested interest other than my opinions. You do. You are so desperately trying to say I said the spread will not work, when Purdue made it work 15 years ago.
Seriously I don’t need your respect; and I have not changed my premise. You wont admit it even though I have backed it up, and frankly though I am indeed compulsive I’m not gong to live my life vicariously thru the thoughts of message board eyes. I’d just as soon us get along, but your respect, come on.
PS...........you love that straw man bit eh?!?!
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Holy crap R you guys masters at the reach..............||
I said they went under center, please find where I said their primary O was a Pro Set?! Honestly I’m already in an epic battle with the other cat over his maniacal inferences so cut me some slack here.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||I don't know..............||
I guess, but again there isn’t a team in the country that rolls more kids into the NFL than tOSU and I’m just spitballin’ here, but I bet they have averaged classes around 12th or so?!??!
Furthermore, Tenn, USC, Miami, FSU et al have helped to prove to me there is a whole lot more going on than signing top 5 classes for success to happen.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||You are indeed insane good sir..............||
you are reaching a conclusion that is all your own. Holy snikes the idea that seems to escape you is this…………. Michigan playing the spread will NOT give them a “new” advantage vs good D’s. I said they wouldn’t have anymore of an advantage in the spread against a good D than they would otherwise. Man alive………………Are you aware what you are saying?
I could pull up countless examples of spread teams making a good D look bad, just as easily as I could the opposite. The two are mutually exclusive. With prodding from Mwolverine I just stumbled on to the realization that the spread has NOT increased scoring over the last several years. So it isn’t a huge leap (you know about that right) to assume the spread has not taken advantage of sound D anymore than any other brand of O. My premise today, yesterday, and tomorrow is just that. The spread isn’t better and just as likely to be stymied by good D as any other Offense. It isn’t that complicated. You want me to be saying something other than what I am.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Okie dokie doggy daddy...............||
Here you go friend…………..I don’t know how to do what you did with the box thing so I’ll cut and paste my very 1st quote. Again this is my 1st quote using sign language here so you can see what I am saying………………….
“””””””””1st off the spread, as has many different offenses, has already worked in the Big 10. NW, PU, Illinois and PSU/tOSU have used it to varying degrees for many, many years. I honestly don't get the infatuation people have with the spread or the belief that it is "new".””””””””””””
Now please cut that up if you will!
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Finally.............||
Also if you could please help me understand your theory on over matching talent?!?! Iowa has indeed stock piled some terrific 2-deep defensive talent but they don’t over match anyone on offense. Maybe on O-line I suppose, but Iowa’s QB play and WR play has been spotty at best. (Wr’s have been a little better this year) and that wont improve in a spread that takes more timing and more of everything. It is such a tired old theory that the spread proponents continually perpetuate.
Furthermore from game to game a team imposes their will or doesn’t. The spread isn’t over matching anything. Go look at the amount of scoring over the last several years. It is the same as it has been over the last several years.
That doesn’t even address teams executing better game to game or series to series, not with standing the presence of good or bad Defense.
It also doesn’t address the question of what makes a team talented? One that executes and if it is, what makes them talented one week and not the next.
Or how about this conundrum. OU waxes Okie St, who beats TT who waxes OU. Who was more talented and who executed better?!?! Obviously the team that won I guess, and it may have been the better of two “bads” in some cases. Honestly you succinctly pointed out it all comes down to execution and your system is immaterial though I sense you don’t want that to be true, though I swear you said that yourself earlier.
I have to tell you, when I stumbled across the reality that scoring is not “up” over the last several years that pretty effectively ends the thought process that the spread has changed much, no matter how you slice it.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Listen if you want to assume USC and Texas.......||
just started recruiting good again so be it, but it isn't logical and you know it. No way Texas in Texas and USC in Cali ever recruited poorly. They just didn't get coached up for whatever reason in my opinion. I have tried for years to find archived recruiting rankings from then, but I’ll assure you both teams were still top 20 recruiters.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||I can get behind that thought.............||
UF is going to rock FSU it seems.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Here is the D follow up...............||
to my other thought. It seems the spread has not impacted the scoring much after all.
Incidentally you guys have challenged me and I thank you for that. Why I never went this direction before I have no clue. Here is some more good stuff………..
In 2003, 25 teams held others to under 20 ,points a game. UM was 7th and Iowa was 10th.
In 2007 there 20 with Iowa at 16th and UM at 23rd
In 2008, 24 teams did the same and Iowa was 8th and UM was below 50th.
In 2009 there were 23 teams and Iowa was 11th with UM again down the field.
Here is something intriguing……………..in 2006 there were 42 teams who held the opposition below 20 points while there were 39 who scored at above a 30 pt clip. Wow what a dichotomy.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||I don't think that is ture.........||
That hurts a little as I am giving you reasons, not saying if we had done this or that we’d have done better. It’s apart of the game and I’ve been clear on that and you know it. Playing devils advocate you might say without those struggles Iowa doesn’t get their collective heads out of their arse and get it together so I most assuredly am NOT excusing anything. I believe one is followed by 2 and so and so on………usually things are indeed tied together like ball control and D.
Also M, I do not agree with your premise on O but I do think 90% of the college football landscape that doesn’t follow closely would agree with you.
I have some stats for you, that aren’t necessarily indicative of much other than scoring is NOT going up as I think most would assume. A quick cursory look at the total offenses stats on Yahoo shows so far this year 39 teams have averaged 30 plus per game. In 2008 there were 37, in 2007 there were 49, in 2006 there were 39 and jumping clear back to 2003 there was also 39. The spread has not revolutionized College football scoring. Although the media has perpetuated that, and us fans have sucked in, it isn’t true. Scoring is NOT up and that is a stat that is hard to twist.
Pretty shocking eh............I'm not sure I even expected that.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Aaahhh quite true............||
And in the effort of full disclosure I’m not above being convenient certainly………LOL
In that spirit we are all college football junkies I presume and we can all grab games (OSU’s spread is getting annihilated right now & OU’s is the beneficiary of some solid D leading to optimum field position) that prop up our point. I love football and really truth be told I miss OU and Nebraska wish boning and optioning it up and down the field, with IM Hip, Jarvis Redwine, Jamelle Holloway and Marcus Dupree (one of the greatest TB’s to play the game who indecently caused Switzer to go to the I while he was there because he wasn’t as good in the veer) but I will watch any team play including the WAC & MWC at 12:00 at nite.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||I don't know.........||
Honestly and here is were I can sometimes be a little sarcastic so I’ll refrain. I don’t like being that way (though sadly it seems natural at times) and I have enjoyed dialoguing with you, but USC has recruited studs for years. So has Texas and all those SEC teams yet it still didn’t keep USC and Texas from being miserable for much of the 80’s and 90’s. I honestly don’t think the causal fan & especially the College football Royalty really understands how fragile and fickle it really all is.
Talent doesn’t automatically equate to W’s anymore, and you can be talented and a good coach and still go 14-10 over a 2-year period. It happens and when it goes away it’s tough to get back. Coming back full circle it is this reason that I thought the spread was a mistake for UM and the same reason I now feel they need to see it thru with RR.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||I enjoy following people who get it.........||
4 things will never change in football and all one needs to do is look at Iowa or UM over the last couple years to see its veracity.
1) Can you dominate the O & D line?
2) Do you have above average QB play (the Big 10’s problem as a whole of late)?
3) Can you hold onto the ball………?
4) Can you play smash mouth sideline-to-sideline D when your O goes in the tank and it always does at some time?
It really is that simple. The system is of a lesser concern, and yes Oregon dominated the lines and USC with their 800 High School All-Americans did not. That is the number one reason how teams that recruit lower ranked kids compete. The spread means little. Good job!
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Hmmmmm........||
Well tOSU who hasn’t recruited like USC for the last 10 years still has more NFLers so I’m not sure that’s exactly true but I like that you agree the NFL draft is the truest testament. Yes I still get that tOSU recruits well, but they were no USC.
PS................I don't get the negative points and I guess I don't care but it is interesting
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Hmmmm.....................||
Boston College, Wisco, Iowa et al would disagree. So would last years flavor of the month Mizzou, KU, etc, etc, etc...........
Once again the defense is the key. KU and Mizzou suck.............wait for it…. not because they can't play good O, but their D blows. The system, like Ga Tech’s who many said was outdated are immaterial. Heck I honestly think the Wing T would light up college football, but the spread being the “best” at maximizing talent because it is the flavor of the month is inconclusive at best.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Well.........||
This star argument is amongest my favorites but it has gotten so old and tired and mostly futile that I won’t get to deep here. I’ll say this. There is so much talent out there anymore that is miss-ranked that you could field several teams of exclusively 2 star kids that could compete at the highest level. Yes on a blurry out of focus level there is a correlation but seemingly there are countless examples every year, and over the last several that completely obliterates its’ veracity. Both ways mind you. Right away Iowa 25, Purdue 25, Wisco, 21, Va Tech 24, Oregon, 23 and BC 21 prove that you don’t need to have very high rankings to find lots of talent. It doesn’t also always translate to W’s!
Ironically enuff, I must be prophetic (despite being all over the place…..Eye roll again) as I knew it would come to this hence why I mentioned recruiting earlier.
Once again NFL alumni is the truest gauge for a teams recruiting abilities based on talent. Not W’s but pure talent.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Whoa hold on there................||
Howdy dropped back in just in time it seems. 1st off your assessment is clearly flawed right from the start. Right off the bat in my 1st post, I clearly said not only can the spread work it most assuredly has in the Big 10 in particular. Therefore right from the begining we can conclude your logic may indeed be flawed if not your reading skills at least. I also said it isn’t new like many on here like to think. You know suddenly UM has reinvented the wheel right here in the Big 10.
I also followed the conversation as you took it, so if it was all over the place grab your mirror. I only refuted your ancillary comments about West Va, Stewart etc. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt as you do RR.
Ultimately unless you can go back and review where I started and see you are mistaken about what I said it would be fruitless to continue. Really the man below is dead on. It most assuredly comes down to talent and ability to execute and run what your sytem is. My feelings, and they were rooted in sound logic, is that ball control O’s lends itself to better D and this isn’t a new thought postulated by me. In fact though I fancy myself a sharp chap I have certainly not presented a new idea here in the last 24 hours. All mute as you have accused me of something I in fact did not do. Resorting to suggesting I conceded when in fact I have not. I still think it is the wrong offense for UM, I never said it wouldn’t work.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||This is mostly to the 2-guys I have chatted with..........||
And then I have to take a break already. I’m to obsessive…….
Insulting your intelligence?!?! Here is a theory of mine. Pete Carroll in Iowa City would not continue to sign top 10 classes and KF in Tinsel town would sign higher classes though admittedly not as good as Pete, so please who is insulting who. My point remains and I was clearly not comapring them now.
Honestly the guy with defensive/NFL points I don’t get at all sorry. As for West Va’s great D in 2007 I’d hoped someone would go there. That was their best D in 7 years and they gave up 235 points (against admittedly solid competition). The next year they gave up 221. This year they have given up 216 vs the best Big East in years. Why do fans do that? Grab a “ranking” and pretend like it proves their point. It doesn’t.
Back to the Defense and recruiting thing. West Va wasn’t bringing in top shelf D talent like UM needs, will he now? If RR gets credit for West Va’s recruiting now, Stewart gets some of his past credit as well, as does the Michigan name for RR now. See it’s a circular argument and one people use to help prop up their guy.
Here is the rub,I didn’t mean to compare Iowa to UM. Michigan is “the” university. My thoughts were this. The rest of the world is catching up to the UM’s, USC’s etc! But the Boise St’s didn’t get REALLY good until they played real D, nor did TCU, nor Utah etc. The spread is nice, but it still takes world class D. Iowa wins because of their D, and pretty much just that.
Now to be fair, I will concede Iowa failed of late because of terribly bad O. So it’s not just cut and dried. In fact many of you likely don’t know this, but Iowa is the 3rd winningest team in the Big 10 since 2001 (1 game behind UM) and the 4th winningest since 1981. But had it not been, for 4 things you’d likely be lamenting us as much as tOSU over the last 8 years.
1)…Horrendous, injury riddled, Epically bad QB play from 2006 to 2007.
2)…Terrible entitlement/attitude, thug behavior that started in 2005 in my opinion.
3)…Some serious complacency from the top down in 2006 that took a year to dig out of.
4)……Suspensions, transfers, coupled with injuries and the inexperience that resulted. You guys know about that.
The point being it is all so fragile and the right fit is paramount. In my opinion a strong D is the number one catalyst to winning & controlling games and I hope Iowa never goes spread.
Lastly do you think I don’t know UM, Iowa State, tOSU a few others, didn’t run on Iowa. In fact I’d guess astute football fans would see Iowa’s D was a little different from past years, but really better and more dominant than ever. Tressel was terrified to let Pyror throw down field vs us and he should have been. Iowa was weaker inside this year than they have been in years. They were also more explosive to the edge and off the edge. And although I don’t agree UM didn’t have big plays this year as they did. They certainly were worse vs Iowa. Iowa also ridiculously limited Big plays this year vs everyone.
In closing I have enjoyed chatting you guys up, but it is all about your D. If RR can make it happen there you are set. It won’t be the spread that does it but rather the D. My belabored point is I can’t believe they didn’t go that direction, same goes with ND. Go with a strong defensive mind and all else will work out. Again just my opinion.
PS………once again I’m not saying Iowa is better than or passing UM. That would be silly and truly I don’t even care. My goal is to win 10 plus games and let things fall were they might. I don’t even care if we go to a BCS game and really would prefer we don’t jump Boise. I’d like to play the SEC as we play them very well. I just love college football, and the Big 10.
PPS……………I happen to be quite well paid as a negotiator/closer so although you are free to your opinion it is biased, and fortunately my wife and 4 home schooled children would offer a more educated opinion.
That last bit was just to be ornery by the way. Here is to hoping UM can regain their rightful spot and Iowa can hold on!
|4 years 32 weeks ago||A thread killer eh........................||
NW scored 22 and Illinois scored 27, hardly record numbers and Iowa turned it over 5 times vs NW and 3 more vs Illinois. Now I hate excuses. Iowa turns the ball over unfortunately and I get that. Others in this very thread though have used it to excuse UM. I use it to show once again that in the last several years an astute football fan will look to Iowa and see our Offense has been heinous at times and a spread wont make us turn the ball over less that’s for sure.
Finally this isn’t about Iowa. I’m not comparing our universities. I am only using a “median” that I know the most about as an example. UM is a storied great university that has chosen to go to the spread. I think it was anti-Michigan, and some of your more affluent football minds would agree. Please don’t treat me like an Iowa homer. I’m not saying we are better that would be disrespectful to come on here and do, not to mention idiotic.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||I'm the problem here actually and I mean that........||
I really enjoy these boards and yours has been a great read. But as should be obvious I signed up last nite and began to post in Epic fashion. Clearly I’m a crack addict and need to stay away. With that said, I’m not 100% sure what evidence or counter points you showed. You did make some true comments for sure, but not anymore “clear” proof than what I have said. Some kids work in the NFL, some don’t. I feel confident a well-read, articulate guy like you has seen the same articles chrociling some GMs/scouts feelings on "some" spread guys, so to go further would belittle us both.
Lastly you have succinctly said what I must have not said well enuff. The spread will indeed work as many “schemes” systems will. It can work at UM but it will NOT set the Big 10 on its ear at so it seems we agree after all. Execution, effort, focus and defense, defense, defense is what wins football games. I believe limiting touches is paramount to playing good defense especially if your O is a turn over machine like yours and ours was this year.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Yes I get that and in fact................||
I almost edited that out as I saw that it had an obvious rebuttal, but it has other outlets and I so love the debate game. As it is however I have to rock out tonite as I am in boo koo trouble from my wife right now. These board suck me right in. I've actually avoided them for sometime. May have to go back to that. C-ya and good convo.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Slow down friend.................||
I think we can come to some agreement as I said above I get you guys and I do apologize for being a tick disdainful. You are taking some serious liberties here if you think I was back tracking. You just missed what I was saying. I hope you see if nothing else I debate for a living so I'd never enter into an argument that compares the recruiting power of the winningest program in history to West Va that has sucked for most of their existence. I also never said Iowa was a talent producing juggernaut as I wouldn't have offered up their obviously deficient number had that been my intent. I find it interesting that little ole Iowa who recruits classes from 25th to 50th is the 18th best at the time and apparently moving up.
I also can't give RR to much credit as the best classes West Va has signed have come since he left. As far as what Stewart does with them that is coaching and development, not necessarily recruiting, though I'll concede it is obvious Iowa's classes have been way better than their rankings and if that's your bent I concur.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||You cats are OK and if I came off jerky.............||
I'm sorry. I'm not an Iowa homer and I know we have our failings. Many of which start with our moronic fans IMO. Yes he was being chastised and we do have serious offensive failings from year to year (game to game really) As for our NFL talent we are no USC or tOSU or even UM, but defensively and TE/O-line we are pretty darn good. Even in 2006/2007 we had several future NFLers. So I'd agree we had some serious coaching deficiencies, though I 'd say they were as much character and effort related as anything. But I must also say, I personally believe KF and staff are better talent evaluators than they are even coaches. You may not know this but we have like 13 plus 2 star kids in the NFL right now. Many of which played as Frosh.
Our failings aside I still believe in the system. I love play action passing and Pro set O!
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Come on.................||
Just the last two years LSU, Georgia, USC, etc hovered around the top 10. Do you think I'm stupid. I assume if Bama wins the NC and Iowa, tOSU, and any other Pro team wins and finishes in the top 10 now you are wrong?!?!?!
A team that can go under center is always a more diverse and better O. OU does in fact go under center and run down hill at times. UM has also ran down hill and should more IMO. I did not add OU, with deceit and in fact I have been very open with you guys. Were as you guys have tried silly, slight of hand stuff, that was quite weak really. Some of which you queried without knowing the outcome. I'm a junkie and have been in many of these stupid debates.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Sorry..............||
Actually I forgot to give your Florida's numbers. I usually include, them because people are shocked, but I thought I'd hold them out this time. The number is and this is with a straight face and off of ESPN's NFL players per school page..................31, as I said it was higher a couple eyars back. Being honest, which I know many can't be....again with the heavy eye roll........there are many reason's why this may be and it isn't just because of their Offensive system. But it does show, they aren't necessarily the most physically gifted and that D is still they key.
The highest for the record are tOSU, USC, Georgia, LSU......you know Pro set teams.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Yowzzaaa I know you..............||
guys are data hounds but seriously this isn't that tough.
Under RR (verify yourself) they routinely recruited in the 30's to 50's. Stewarts best class has been 27th the past two years. RR's best was the class Stewart finished in 2007 (23rd). The rest were in the 30's with many in the 40's or 50's.(52nd in 2005 I believe) UM helps him recruit now. Of course they didn't recruit better than UM, do you understand the point?!
Ironically you unwittingly added PSU to the list (people conveniently call them spread or not spread to further their point) when they have dropped a little recently per NFL talent as has UF. Both had in the upper 30's awhile back. Iowa on the other hand is rising every year seemingly. Even when they were down. That's because they run their practices and whole operation like an NFL team and you hear it talked about every Pro Day.
As for the offense to defense correlation if you don't see it now you wont after I explain it, but in short. The more you limit a teams' touches and control the ball, burn clock the better your defense typically plays. Why do you think Iowa plays the way they do? They are defense 1st, 2nd and 3rd and so is Nick Saban. I'd take either coach over most (not all) but most every spread coach.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||R U serious.................||
Shall we look at record setting QB's 1st.................Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't make it so. I'll bet their are 50 articles chronicling the problems. listen this is dumb. Honestly I don't care. My team doesn't run the spread your's does. If you love it so be it. I don't, but don't accuse me of making crap up when you know I'm not.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Oh thank goodness.............||
You caught me. I said none of them worked and you proved me wrong. Solid work.
PS....................Percy Harvin, Crabtree and many of the WR have worked as it is a different adjustment. However, many linemen have gone undrafted and so have the QB's Some of the record setting WR's have struggled too, but lets not worry about them, because obviously we are dealing with definitives as they relate to your agenda. Clearly there are only points for your side.............insert Heavy eye rollhere.
|4 years 32 weeks ago||Listen I get................||
you guys are committed to believing that the "spread" is "it". You have to be as you are pot committed. But here is the rub, the only team Texas played with a defensive pulse they got 16 points. UF has played several very good Defensive teams and struggled mightily.
TCU got 14 vs Clemson and who else has they played with a top level D? The spread is fine, it really is. I don't like it but it is fine. It will not revolutionize the Big 10 however anymore than it already has.
LSU, Bama, USC, Iowa etc these teams will not play the spread full time and they will be fine. UM was prototypical QB's, WR's and O-linemen. That's not what they are now and I think it's a mistake. They needed to fix their D, not their O!
I will say though I believe RR is a good coach and should have been retained. Firing him would've set UM back 5 years. I just think it was a poor direction to go from the start. Now you have to hold on. They'll win games. The only error is UM fans are trying to convince themselves the spread will make them NC' Champs 8 times over the next 12 years and I don't see it. You will still struggles scoring vs the OSU's, PSU's and Iowa's. Those teams play good D, and they can play in space. I assure you Iowa isn't intimidated by the spread.