Scott Shafer's Syracuse Defense
The Syracuse University defense ruined Homecoming Day for the Bulls and Daniels by sacking him four times and intercepting two of his passes while sending waves of blitzers at him from every angle conceivable. The result was a season-low 219 yards of offense for South Florida (3-2, 0-1 Big East) and a stunning 13-9 loss to a team they had defeated five consecutive times by an average of 24 points over the last five years.
“They pressure the ball,” Daniels said quietly. “They did a lot of different stuff.”
And that was the second half of the equation for the Orange defense. It was able to shut down the run game without allowing a touchdown pass for the third time in five games this season. A year ago Daniels completed 12 of 20 passes for 208 yards and two touchdowns in a 34-20 victory at Syracuse, with the TD passes traveling 85 and 33 yards. Saturday, he was 9-for-23 (.391) for 124 yards, zero TDs and two picks.
http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2010/10/syracuse_defense_smothers_sout.html
October 11th, 2010 at 3:35 AM ^
The debate as to who's responsible for the 2008 fiasco isn't a debate at all. It's clear where the blame lies.
October 11th, 2010 at 4:41 AM ^
It is quite clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Syracuse_Orange_football_team
Of course he did do this in 2008..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Michigan_Wolverines_football_team
I am sure all those 40's are just RR holding him back right? Nevermind that he had much more defensive talent than Michigan has this year?
Sorry for interrupting, don't let facts get in the way.
October 11th, 2010 at 5:04 AM ^
If it's not clear to you by now, it never will be.
If you've paid any attention whatsoever, you'd know what the underlying problem was. Everyone threw Shafer under the bus in 2008, just like everyone's throwing Robinson under the bus now. There's a common denominator. Meanwhile Syracuse is now 15th nationally in total defense.
Gee, I wonder what's different...
October 11th, 2010 at 5:23 AM ^
to you know, provide any credible evidence to support your point.
Syracuse schedule this year:
Akron, Washington, Maine, Colgate, and S. Florida.
Guess which game they gave up 41 in?
October 11th, 2010 at 5:57 AM ^
You're so convinced of your own superiority over everyone else here that you can't believe anyone would believe otherwise, and you talk down to anyone who dares challenge your assumptions by speaking in codes and cryptic phrasings and by insinuating that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. It was annoying when you were on my side, and I'll freely admit it's more annoying now that you're not. You're not interested in the exchange of ideas; you're interested in everyone listening to you and giving up their own opinions.
In my opinion, saying there's a "common demoninator" to two defensive coordinators who failed is a pretty small sample size. Carr had two who failed, too (in three years, in case you're going to argue about time span). You may be right, but I don't agree with your certainty or the way you're going about expressing your opinions. I really hope you don't throw away the cachet you've built up on this blog by becoming "that guy" who inserts the same opinion (in this case, that Rodriguez should be fired) into every discussion, as if it's a one-size-fits-all point and can be used over and over again. I've respected your work for a long time, and it'd be a shame to see you waste it by not treating people with respect.
October 11th, 2010 at 6:19 AM ^
"My own superiority over everyone"? When was the last time I participated in any sort of debate or argument here?
So I come across as overbearing. My bad. Nowhere did I imply that the guy who disagreed with me was an idiot. Since you are obviously familiar with me and the way I apparently go about things, you'd know that if I think someone's an idiot, I'm going to tell them.
There are two sides to the debate here, and we obviously don't fall on the same one. IPFW thinks Shafer was largely at fault for what happened in 2008; I think it was more like Shafer wasn't allowed to run the type of defense he wanted to because he didn't mesh with RR and RR's assistants on the defensive side of the ball. If you disagree with me, that's fine. There's no "proof" either way, other than largely subjective numbers, like Shafer's defenses at Western Michigan and Stanford being blitz-mad sack machines, as opposed to the soft, tissue paper monstrosity that took the field for Michigan in 2008. If he was such a terrible coordinator, why is it only here that he failed? Why is Syracuse suddenly decent on defense? I've spoken to more than one Syracuse fan. They rave about the guy. So why didn't he work out here? If he was so terrible, why have things not gotten even a LITTLE better in the almost two years he's been gone?
There isn't one single redeeming quality about this defense. In my opinion (oh, and I'm freely admitting right here that it's my OPINION and absolutely can be wrong), there are really only two explanations. Either RR has swung and missed horribly on TWO defensive coordinator hires, or he has restricted and handcuffed both his coordinators and forced them into running schemes they don't want to run. When you consider that every single person even remotely considered an "insider" will tell you that Shafer was essentially removed from the decision-making process prior to the abortion that was the 2008 Purdue game, it's clear, to me anyway, what the problem is.
Rich inherited a flawed product. But with every second that passes, the opportunity to blame Lloyd Carr's recruiting deficiencies for this mess gets smaller and smaller. It's not Lloyd Carr's fault that after two and a half years we apparently don't have anybody to replace Obi Ezeh. It's not Lloyd Carr's fault that these players can't tackle, can't contain, can't shed blocks, can't play assignment football, and get generally manhandled by any physical front they face. Eventually it's time to own up. Scott Shafer's career as a defensive coordinator has been pretty damn successful at every place but one. Greg Robinson has two Super Bowl rings as a defensive coordinator in the NFL.
And I don't appreciate you pigeon-holing me with that "Rodriguez should be fired" bullshit. Nowhere did I even come close to saying that. And as for "inserting the same opinion into every discussion", like I said, when was the last time I even participated in one here? I've been a ghost for months here. I pop in on recruiting discussions every now and then, that's basically it. But nowhere did I say that our head coach should be fired. I'm frustrated. My patience now is thinner than it was when I woke up on Saturday. But not here, nor on my own blog, have I said I want a new coach. I've voiced my opinion on what I think is GOING to happen, but never have I said what I want to happen.
October 11th, 2010 at 7:21 AM ^
We're all frustrated, and in retrospect, I was much too hard on you. You're one of the more vocal members of the Michigan fanbase on any issue (not on here, necessarily, but your blog posts do have a certain flair to them), and I probably lashed out on you harder than need be. If I'm going to talk about respect, I need to show it, too. Mea culpa.
Point-by-point:
-You say you didn't imply that the other poster was an idiot, but I mainly took issue with two statements:
"If it's not clear to you by now, it never will be.
If you've paid any attention whatsoever, you'd know what the underlying problem was."
I think this implies something about anyone who disagrees with you, even if it doesn't say it straight out, and you didn't provide much evidence.
-I'm not sure which side of the debate I fall on. I don't know much about the x's and o's. I expected more to happen when Shafer was here, and was kind of surprised he was fired so fast, because I really liked the ideas he was promoting, even though I didn't understand them much. I was disappointed when Robinson showed up, because, I mean, look at what he had just come from. Given what he's had to work with, though, I'm not all that disappointed. At first glance, it would seem that any problems have arisen from some sort of disconnect between him (or the entire side of the ball) and Rodriguez, especially in regards to recruiting. I'm not sure we can say Robinson is a great coach, what with that whole awful four years in New York, but it seems fairly clear that something at least a little out of sorts is going on here.
-I agree that the time is almost up in the blame-Carr game. Things could have been fixed to a far greater extent than they have been so far.
-Regarding my pigeonholing of you into the "fire Rodriguez" camp, I apologize. I must have misinterpreted your blog post after the MSU game. I thought you were saying that the "experiment" with Rodriguez needed to end, and he needed to be gone, replaced with someone who would know both sides of the ball.
I think we're all frustrated, and I deliberately avoided this place for a few days so that I wouldn't let the frustration get to me and that I wouldn't be participating in any arguments. Should've waited another day, I suppose.
October 11th, 2010 at 9:51 AM ^
Just wanted to commend Mongoose and The Other Brian on their classy responses to each other after their initial dust-up. Nice to see.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:21 AM ^
thought it could use a little more ALL CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!
October 11th, 2010 at 10:27 AM ^
Who said that family values are dead around here.
You both acted like true Michigan Men.
side note: While I am sort of kidding around, do you think that you would ever see such a classy exchange on a State blog? I would expect that if the same thing happened on a State blog, it would look something like:
Other Brian - Man, we just sucked. Our coach should be fired and replaced with a countdown clock.
Mongoose - F-U. You suck, and your mother is a b*tch.
Other Brian: F me? No, brah, F-U. And F your mother.
Mongoose: That's it brah, meet me out in back of our trailer park - we are gonna settle this like men. You are do ded.
/police come and arrest two drunken fools wearing green wife beaters and dirty socks for public drunkeness, disturbing the peace and public urination.
October 11th, 2010 at 8:13 AM ^
Keep Gerg until stew gets fired at wvu then hire casteel to run the 3-3-5.
<br>
<br>The problem with that is that rr has to outlast stew
October 11th, 2010 at 2:04 PM ^
bring back Ron English after a winless 2010 EMU season
October 11th, 2010 at 9:29 AM ^
TOB's perspective here is pretty much hard to argue with. The only counter is to continually keep laying the blame at the feet of personnel, which is a tired old chestnut. Why, we might ask, does it seem that most back seven Michigan recruits, no matter how highly regarded, always seem to suck? Occam's Razor says it's the coaching/scheme, not the recruits. Other teams do far more with far less. Appy State can shut down Manningham, Arrington and Matthews with no-stars - a single data point, to be sure, but the point stands: we have sufficient personnel to not be this horrid, to not be 120th in pass defense.
I don't know WTF we should do. I guess hope that GERG can create an average defense to go with the high octane offense that clearly RR knows how to create out of thin air.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:15 AM ^
Whoa hold on one second. Appy State played well but I think it is clear that the mastermind behind shutting down Michigan's receivers in that game was Mike DeBord.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^
Touché.
October 11th, 2010 at 1:31 PM ^
That was part of it, but Henne was also uncharacteristically off-target that day.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:05 AM ^
...every single person even remotely considered an "insider" will tell you that Shafer was essentially removed from the decision-making process prior to the abortion that was the 2008 Purdue game...
I particularly remember Brian being critical of the Schafer hire after the Purdue game (then again, that was one of the worst defensive performances ever), but I didn't know that. FWIW, UM gave up 6 pts, 21 pts, and then 42 pts against OSU in the 3 games after; I have no idea if it means anything.
I was disappointed when Schafer was fired. Like everyone else, I was really excited about the hire--Phil Steele wrote that he liked the hire (and that we still probably wouldn't reach a bowl game), there was one recruit talking about how much he liked Schafer and his crazy defensive schemes; there's the Stanford upset of USC; and MGoCoach GSims was familiar with Schafer from before he came to UM, absolutely raved about him, and continued to defend him as the season dragged on. I wish we still had Schafer so that he could further develop whatever system it was that he had. The players could grow into his schemes and the team last year wouldn't be on its 3rd DC in 3 years.
Maybe it was a clash of personalities, roster depth issues, or just bad luck. Hopefully Gerg will turn out fine, but I'll always wonder what could have been. Amen.
October 11th, 2010 at 1:29 PM ^
I agree that it definitely looks like Shafer was handcuffed and not allowed to run his preferred style of D, which is frustrating because he's been successful when he's been allowed to. My concern with GERG is that even if he's allowed to run his own scheme, does his recent track record really suggest it'd be much better? He was the HC at Syracuse; he could run whatever he wanted there. The results were not pretty.
I fully agree that RR needs to let his DC do his thing - but if he wants a championship-caliber D, I don't know if GERG can deliver that.
October 11th, 2010 at 2:56 PM ^
Here's where I have let smarter people than me (this is a large n) change my mind. GERG may not be able to build an elite D, but his resume and football knowledge suggests he can build a serviceable one, say, with some years of recruiting Michigan talent, something in the 30s or 40s. Something very much like State showed Saturday. And while that may not be what we all want, with RR's offenses, it should be waaay more than enough.
October 11th, 2010 at 3:14 PM ^
GERG has a long résumé, but his recent track record is not impressive at all. It's worth wondering if he simply is past his prime as a coach. This was posted in the defensive thread yesterday:
| Scoring D | Rush D | Pass D | Total D | |
| 2004 - Tex | 19 | 16 | 58 | 23 |
| 2005 - Syr | 64 | 98 | 22 | 57 |
| 2006 - Syr | 54 | 110 | 76 | 107 |
| 2007 - Syr | 104 | 108 | 102 | 111 |
| 2008 - Syr | 102 | 102 | 84 | 102 |
| 2009 - UM | 76 | 92 | 66 | 82 |
| 2010 - UM | 75 | 55 | 119 |
112 |
Basically, for five consecutive years he's fielded horrific defenses (three of them when he was the head coach). At some point you have to conclude that he probably isn't the long-term answer. I don't know if it's specifically an issue of him not teaching fundamentals or getting guys to remember their assignments. Maybe he just doesn't have the fire he once did. DCs are often fiery, Barwis types who get their guys worked into a frenzy. (Conversely, Shafer is pretty low-key, so that isn't always necessary.) For whatever reason, he's not getting results anymore, and I'm concerned that we're not going to have top-notch defenses with him as our DC.
October 11th, 2010 at 3:17 PM ^
Sigh. Trying to put a pretty face on it, I guess. When I fielded my GERG concerns in the past, I get swarmed with people who question my IQ and understanding of Defense. It's concerning.
October 11th, 2010 at 6:52 AM ^
Schafer had WMU leading the NCAA in sacks
Schafer had a rough start at Stanford in 2007, but the light appeared to go on when they held #1 USC to 23 points mid season, and proceeded to give up an average of only 22.7 ppg after that USC game in a pretty strong PAC-10.
Schafer comes to Michigan and leads us to the worst defense we've ever seen, including the debacle that was switching to the 3-3-5 the week of the Purdue game. You think switching to the 3-3-5 with one week to install was Schafer's idea? I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
Schafer moves on to Syracuse (where GERG came to us from) and has turned them into a top 30 defense nationally, according to statistics. I don't care who it is against, do you think our defense could hold ANY 1-A team to 9 points???? I sure don't.
We removed the DC and added another one who has a pretty loaded resume. Installed the 3-3-5 yet again, a defense he has very little experience with, and we're back to breaking all time records for suck-ta-tude.
He's right to imply there's a common denominator here, and it isn't the DC position.
October 11th, 2010 at 8:18 AM ^
I always felt that Schafer was a scape goat, and I was very disappointed when he was fired. I also was disappointed when GRob was hired given his failure at Syracuse and the fact that he was a poor recruiter which concerned me given Michigan's lack of defensive talent. However, there is a logical disconnect going on here. Does RR ignore the defense as some claim, or is he dictating the defense to his DC? It seems to me that it can't be both.
October 11th, 2010 at 8:45 AM ^
Well, the defense held Connecticut to only 10 points so as crazy as it sounds, yes, I think they could hold somebody to 9 points. It is possible...but not very likely.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:06 AM ^
Fair Point, I had put the UConn game out of mind. I do wonder what the score would be if we played that game again today now that our weaknesses have been exposed ad nauseam.
October 11th, 2010 at 9:58 AM ^
Which bridge is it that you are selling? Does it include any land on either side or just the bridge? Do you mind me asking how much you are asking?
October 11th, 2010 at 10:04 AM ^
Here's a photo. The guys on the left are RR and the WVU boys who want to run the 3-3-5. The guys on the right are Schafer and GERG who want to run their own thing. I'll part with this bridge for the tiny sum of $500.
October 11th, 2010 at 12:00 PM ^
well played. I think $500 is a pretty good deal but my paypal doesn't seem to be working so I will have to let this go to someone else.
October 11th, 2010 at 12:28 PM ^
Did you mean this one?
October 11th, 2010 at 10:44 AM ^
to 10 points. UConn was supposed to challenge for the Big East title this season. Syracuse is in the Big East. See where I'm going with this?
October 11th, 2010 at 10:53 AM ^
Somebody already brought that up, and I addressed it.
Transitive properties don't work in football. If A beat B by 15 & B beat C by 8 Then A would beat C by 23??
Yes, we held one team who had never seen our defense to 10 points. Since then, we get worse and worse each week as teams see our defense and how easy it is to exploit up the middle.
Why can't people accept the fact that there is one constant in our 3 straight "worst year ever" defensive performances? It isn't the DC. It's the meddling HC and his alleged meddling "assistant head coach / DB coach / Special teams coach." Who, by the way, knows absolutely nothing about special teams. The walk on kicker article in the Daily last week made that point very clear.
October 11th, 2010 at 11:19 AM ^
What does it have to be one or the other? We have one of the worst defenses in I-A - there is plenty of blame to go around.
I think the "meddling RichRod" theory holds water. It's pretty clear that the 3-3-5 business is his doing and needless to say, it has NOT worked out. However, Greg Robinson has not put together an above average defense since the turn of the millenium. Texas was better both before he came and after he left. I like Schafer but WTF has he done at Syracuse? They were 4-8 last year and gave up 28 points/game, which is WORSE than where Michigan is at right now. They have looked good this year against the Colegates and Akrons of the world, but Washington dropped 41 on them. Do you really think they would have fared much better than us against Notre Dame, Michigan State and Indiana?
If Rodriguez really is meddling, then he needs to stop. But bad hires have a lot to do with the failures of the defense.
They need to bring in a strong DC with a proven track record and give him complete autonomy.
October 11th, 2010 at 1:34 PM ^
We removed the DC and added another one who has a pretty loaded resume.
It's a long résumé, all right, but not that distinguished - at least not if you're talking about the past 10 years. It is worth noting that we didn't run much 3-3-5 last year. GERG largely could do what he wanted. Only this year did we make that our base D.
October 12th, 2010 at 3:56 AM ^
everything you said there. I was actually pretty upset when Schafer got fired.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:38 AM ^
It is clear where your loyalties lie...
October 11th, 2010 at 7:55 AM ^
When we see a defense without Obi Ezeh, we will be better able to judge how good or not good our D is.
October 11th, 2010 at 8:22 AM ^
I am so tired of this small-minded bullshit of blaming one guy for our defensive woes. Take this blame-heavy, single-variable, non-systemic, non-systematic, mouse-brained idea elsewhere. If you think the results we have been seeing are due mostly or even moderately to one guy, you need to really practice your thinking skills.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:35 AM ^
While it is obviously not all on one guy. I tend to be in the camp that Obi is absolutely awful at a position that is very important with a 3 man front. The rest of the defense I can talk about youth, what is our LB excuse?
October 11th, 2010 at 11:57 PM ^
And watch #45 on every defensive snap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBxlagDZnt0
What a difference one guy can make. That said, I have nothing personal against the guy. I'm sure he's busting his ass, trying as hard as he can to represent our school and wear the uniform proudly.
.....it's just hard to watch sometimes.
October 11th, 2010 at 9:19 AM ^
You're going to be very disappointed if/when another MLB steps in and the defense still sucks.
October 12th, 2010 at 4:00 AM ^
what you're saying, but at some point (hopefully next year?) I feel we should be able to expect compotent MLB play.
October 11th, 2010 at 10:04 AM ^
Yeah, get rid of Ezeh and all will be well?
What's that, why don't we just bench Ezeh now, you ask? Because we have no one better than him waiting in the wings? Why, that's like saying that the mere fact that Ezeh won't be around next year doesn't mean our linebacking situation will automatically improve!
October 11th, 2010 at 10:36 AM ^
How can you make that claim? Does Ezeh sort of suck? Yeah. Is that the reason that we are giving up points like they are going out of style? No.
Frankly, I am frustrated, disappointed and just tired of the debate about this defense. This is year 3 for RR and year 2 for GERG. At this point, the whole "blame Carr" thing no longer flies with me. I am not advocating firing RR or even GERG, but clearly something is going on here that is just not working. If RR is hamstringing his D coordinators to run a crappy style of D that they don't want to run, then that has to stop and RR is more to blame that we all think. If it is simply that GERG cannot get more out of this admittedly thin, young and inexperienced defense, then he should go.
Either way, I am growing tired of hearing the excuses and just want to feel like our defense is at least heading in the right direction. Instead, we have actually gotten steadily worse over the past 3 years. When the announcers say we are 120 out of 120 in passing defense, that really gets me thinging: Does Buffalo really have more talent back there than us? How about temple? How about Toledo? How about Ball State? How about EMU? Western? Central? These teams - teams that Michigan could out-recruit without the coaches even showing up - all have better defenses than us.
October 11th, 2010 at 11:59 AM ^
You know what I am growing tired of? Arguments of this form.
1. Lloyd Carr is not to blame for problem X.
2. Therefore, Rich Rodriguez is to blame for problem X.
Here's a wild, outside-the-box notion. Maybe it is not as simple as blaming the coach for every problem. New England's defense has gotten gashed pretty good this year. That doesn't mean Belichick is a lousy defensive coach.
The D is Greg Robinson's. It is not a good defense. Does this mean Greg Robinson is the reason we are not an above-average defense? Would someone else be shutting down Chappell and Cousins with our personnel? I'm not so sure.
If you actually want to understand why teams are ahead of us in passing defense, here are some suggestions. 1. see the quality of the passing offenses they've faced. (We've faced Crist (#11 passing yards), Chappel (#20), Cousins (#27), among others.) 2. see whether they're not giving up passing yards because their opponents are getting so many yards already on the ground (we are #54 in rush defense, so throwing makes more sense).
Even after Saturday's game, our offense is second-best in college football at an average of 7.8 yards a play.
Rodriguez is doing great on his side of the ball. I would cut Robinson at least some slack on the other side. He was not the only reason when his defense won a super bowl and he is not the only reason when his defense gives up 70-yard runs.
October 11th, 2010 at 8:10 AM ^
I watched almost every Syracuse football game during Greg Robinson’s time there as Head Coach and (for some of the time) Co-Defensive Coordinator from 2005 through 2008. His only "success" there came in his first season when, using Paul Pasqualoni’s players, he took the defense from a ranking of 101st to 57th in a season when Syracuse was ranked 115th in total offense. Unfortunately, that Syracuse team finished 1-10; the first ten-loss season in Syracuse history.
In Robinson’s final three seasons, when he often was overseeing the defense and using his hand-picked assistants and many of his own recruits, his Syracuse defenses were ranked 107th, 111th and 102nd. In those seasons, Syracuse’s defensive units frequently appeared confused, woefully lacking in tackling skills (a problem which some observers attributed to Robinson’s "thud-only" practices in which players weren’t allowed to tackle) and rarely able to adjust to their opponents’ offensive schemes.
Greg Robinson is considered by many who know him personally to be a wonderful man who loves and supports his players, and who would be a great neighbor. Those who criticized him during his time at Syracuse rarely criticized the man – just the coach.
Does he need better players like he had with the Denver Broncos in their Super Bowl seasons or at Texas during his one season there as Co-Defensive Coordinator in order to succeed at Michigan? Who knows? If so, will he be able to get those superstar players?
High school football stars – and their coaches, parents and advisors – have more information about their potential college coaches than they’ve ever had before. Prospects for Michigan’s defense can learn what Greg Robinson has done recently in his coaching career by "Googling" his name. Some also may learn of rumors that when Darryl Gross left the USC Athletic Department to become Syracuse’s AD in late 2004, he supposedly relied on advice and encouragement from Pete Carroll (Robinson’s long-time friend) to select Robinson as the new Head Coach. Some may learn of other speculation that Robinson supposedly got the Michigan DC job mainly because he begged for it, and because Robinson’s wife and Rich Rodriguez’s wife became friends during Big East coaches’ meetings when Rodriguez was at West Virginia and Robinson was at Syracuse. I have no idea whether any of that is true; but high school superstars may not see enough to convince them to consider playing for Robinson.
Is he shackled and frustrated by having to run a 3-3-5 defense that he’d never coached before? Would he do better with the defense he ran at Michigan in 2009 when he turned the 67th-ranked defense into the 82nd-ranked defense? Could there be adjustments in the 2010 Michigan defense that would bring improvement during the second half of the season? Do those adjustments include a permanent switch to Kenny Demens or someone else at MLB? Or a four-man front with Craig Roh set at DE? Or more playing time for Will Campbell and true freshmen Marvin Robinson, Josh Furman, Ray Vinopal and Jake Ryan? Or a chance for a couple of the reserve OL to get work on the DL? Adjustments may determine whether Greg Robinson will be coaching at Michigan in 2011.
October 11th, 2010 at 1:56 PM ^
"In Robinson’s final three seasons, when he often was overseeing the defense and using his hand-picked assistants and many of his own recruits, his Syracuse defenses were ranked 107th, 111th and 102nd"
All of those defenses rank higher than us right now (112th). I'm just sayin'...