Scandal at NW might delay massive Ryan Field project
Residents ask NU to 'pause' Ryan Field proposal amid hazing scandal
Paywalled, but the gist is that there's growing momentum (including a group of professors this morning, which isn't mentioned in this article) to pause the huge stadium project. I personally doubt it'll be impacted, given how difficult it is to "pause" a project this big with so many implications down the line. I also know these residents have been fighting this thing since the start, so there's probably some opportunism here.
David DeCarlo, an Evanston resident who lives near the stadium and is co-founder of the nonprofit Most Livable City Association, which opposes the new stadium proposal, said in a statement that the scandal reveals that “Northwestern's leadership has no credibility, and its priorities are badly distorted.”
In the wake of recent reporting, the school needs to put the “Ryan Field proposals on hold,” he said.
Other residents agree.
NIMBYs: Literally everything means we shouldn't build new stuff here!
Except… anyone who bought a house near Ryan knew Ryan was there. Your backyard literally already has it. What, you didnt think they’d ever upgrade a stadium? Or the team wouldnt get so good that gameday crowd would be massive someday? I mean that never can happen, right
Had a buddy in HS whose family house backed to the alley on the west side of the parking lot next to Ryan. Like… they have no basis to complain, its hardly a secret the damn stadium is there. You just learn to avoid the area six to eight Saturdays a year. Gimme a break.
NIMBYs in Berkley whine about all the college students. Hell, Ann Arbor too. They're not exactly a logical brand of asshole.
Yeah, I live in Boston and my family lives somewhat near BC's stadium in Chestnut Hill and I'm still amazed when neighbors complain about the noise and the traffic. That stadium has been there since 1957 and the school since the 1910s; you knew it was there when you bought that house in 1984. And those houses aren't cheap, so it's not like those owners were forced to buy those places because they were the only options in town.
Homeowners in wrigleyville constantly complain about the cub games, yet they bought there and have benefited from the huge appreciation of their homes.
I'd argue that the appreciation of those homes has happened in spite of Wrigley being there, not because of it. The growth of the Southport Corridor, the vast improvement of the CPS (grammar) schools in the area, have more to do with it. Wrigley has been there for over 100 years. The neighborhood has changed a lot in the last 13 because of the above.
Northwestern In My Backyard.
Have I ever told you my Evanston knock-knock joke?
*knock* *knock*
"Get off my porch."
These days in America I'd be pretty happy to get only a verbal warning.
i don't disagree that spending $800 million on any stadium project is a massive misuse of resources (including michigan stadium, by the way, and i love that place), but these people have been banging this drum - and apparently, ONLY this drum - since before it was even announced. they're just using this as a hook upon which to hang their usual crank-hood.
https://www.mostlivablecity.org/press
(in other words - this ain't gonna make a difference)
What is it that you oppose? Stadiums in general? The money? Both? What would your alternative be? The cost of building anything has become outrageous. I’m sure NU would prefer to not spend that much money, but if you want people to watch football games in person, I’m not sure what you are proposing. They could continue to dump money into their current stadium or wait another 10 years to build a new one. Either way you’re gonna spend more money in the long run for a poorer product.
Social services, student services, anything besides dumping a billion dollars into a shitty amateur football program, I’d expect.
The question isn’t how else could you spend $800 million, the question is how else do you get people to watch football live in person? Amateurism is dead btw, so this is also about trying to attract more talent, etc. if your answer is to dissolve NU’s football program, then okay. But if you want to compete, I’m not sure how you do that without spending a lot of money.
So the answer for Northwestern football to become a powerhouse is spend 800 million on a new smaller stadium?
Also I find it amusing that in person sports attendance seems to be on the decline, but yet the answer is always "lets build brand new stadiums with higher ticket prices, that will get people to show up!".
It's so frustrating. We charge outrageous ticket prices because people like the product, but then we dilute the product and try to distract them with bells and whistles. I'm all in for capitalism, but talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
The in-stadium experience is getting worse and worse. But we have DJs and incredibly loud hip-hop music limiting the time the band gets to play!
Dennis, couldn't agree more. Wasn't it Dave Brandon who famously said that he wanted every game at the Big House to be like a Super Bowl. To which, IIRC, John U Bacon quipped (something like), "but we don't want a super bowl we want a Michigan football game" (or something like that)
Berkeley tried this same gambit a while back… and the result is one of the most beautiful stadiums I’ve ever been to, with the most lackluster attendance imaginable. This money could have gone to literally any of the other decrepit buildings on campus (other than the law school or Haas, which unsurprisingly have lovely facilities).
Making $800m in improvements goes to paying wages for a lot of good middle class jobs, a lot of them union jobs.
This fallacy has been de-bunked so many times it's hard to believe anyone will still make the argument without being a troll. If you're not. . . get with the times, man!
$800 million invested in any project results in jobs. But things like infrastructure or re-wilding continue to provide benefits well after the money's spent. Stadiums are near the top of stupidest things to spend the money on, because they're tremendously expensive monstrosities designed by function to be empty over 99% of the time. (A few dozen concerts really doesn't move the needle.) Literally the only worse things are expenditures that create nothing at all, like stock buybacks or crypto.
Of course, we love sports here and it's hard for tens of thousands of people to watch a live event without stadiums, so some will get built. . . but we love sports is the only honest justification. The "economic benefits" thing was a brazen scam run by already-rich people to get wage-earners (many of whom were not sports fans) to foot their bills. Many were funded by taxing hotels so the locals didn't have to pay, but it was still public funds funneled into private investments.
Chill dude. I run my own business, hire people and pay a ton in taxes. I also went to Ross, so I'm not exactly an amateur in this space. I was replying to Gobgoblue who mentions that the money is best spent on social and student services that into "dumping a billion dollars into a shitty amateur football program". I have a nuanced view. While noble, Evanston is a very wealthy town with one of the most prestigious and wealthy universities in the world. I'm sure student and social services for the school are well capitalized.
With that, this is not a decision to spend money on a stadium or give it to some social services. This is a decision to either spend the money (which it burning a hole in their massive balance sheet) or not spend it at all. It it much better to spend the money, not just that it creates good jobs, but also that it puts the money to work that will generate a lot of more income taxes down the road to fund other things.
I don't disagree with you as a whole regarding sports stadiums, but I think in the case of NW, its my take that its not all lost investing in the stadium.
With that, this is not a decision to spend money on a stadium or give it to some social services. This is a decision to either spend the money (which it burning a hole in their massive balance sheet) or not spend it at all.
A large portion of the funding came from the $480M the Ryan family provided to the school as part of the $6B (!!) fundraising round NW finished recently. Some portion of that money could have been directed to non-NW needs in the community, as it doesn't need to be funneled into a stadium renovation. At the end of the day money is somewhat fungible in the general sense but there is a finite amount anyone will be willing to provide to various causes, and that includes incredibly rich boosters. The Ryan family is using their money, in no small part, to continue to have a stadium named after them on the NW campus. I'm sure they love their alma mater and there's nothing wrong with wanting to support them, but they could also open, I don't know, a free daycare for every parent who works for NW on campus and that would likely have a longer-lasting social good than an updated stadium with a nice pavilion.
At this point rich people/schools spend their money how they want and nothing will change that but I'd be shocked if years down the line there's any real, sustained economic benefit from this renovation that justifies the price. For example, a big deal with the Ryan Field improvement is that they plan on selling alcohol there, which they claim would generate a ton in tax revenue because Evanston has a 7.25% alcohol tax (and the state and county throw on about 7-8%). Well, you could sell alcohol at the current stadium if you wanted, and even if you have to install new coolers and testing machines that's still way cheaper than $800M and you'd still get the benefits.
So yeah, let NW rebuild their stadium if they want but I'm done buying into the misleading talking points pushed out by shitty consultants justifying the expenditures as if they're a net positive for anyone beyond said consultants and the companies that stand to profit off of the building and maintenance of said properties.
Ok fair enough. But I could easily replace the Ryan family with the Ross family at Michigan. Ross and his group probably spent more on the business school than the Ryan family did on the stadium. As a Ross alum I can say the former school campus was just fine.
EDIT: Bronxblue, take a look at all the philanthropic funds to which the Ryan family contributes. Long story short, they are very generous.
In aggregate, Pat Ryan has spent about 15x at Northwestern what Ross has spent at Michigan. The Ryan family's spending goes far beyond just the football stadium.
No quibbles with anything you write about stadiums, but saying stock buybacks "create nothing at all" is plainly incorrect.
Companies exist to make money for their stockholders, and companies make investment decisions based on expected rates of return. Burning cash in poorly performing projects is a waste of investor capital and will punish everyone - management, employees, investors, the economy in general.
If a company cannot find projects that meet a minimum return, they have a responsibility to return that cash to investors. They can return that money in dividends (with a corresponding tax obligation for the investor), or buy back stock (a far more efficient way to return capital).
There are other good reasons for buybacks, and decent arguments against them, but to say they create nothing at all is not true.
Literally the only worse things are expenditures that create nothing at all, like stock buybacks or crypto.
Agree wholeheartedly with your post dragonchild, other than pointing out that a stock buyback creates money in my pocket which will lead to money in the pocket of the person who made the new refrigerator I bought with it.
My question is simply, does Ryan Field actually need that much investment? I've been to two games there but the last time was in 2011, so it's been a little while ... but while it obviously isn't awe-inspiring like Michigan Stadium, it was an OK venue to watch a game.
I have no horse in the race but here's my take, having been a long time Evanston resident. Ryan Field feels like a glorified high school field, which can have its charm. I think it serves the purpose well and an update would have sufficed.The new stadium isn't just for football, though. It's for other events like concerts. That's really the impetus behind the project. I think residents are apprehensive about what that might bring. What will night events with alcohol mean for their neighborhood? This group is definitely using this scandal to their advantage, as I would expect they would. But their concerns, pre-scandal, still stand and I think are worthy of consideration. It's not just a bunch of "Get Off My Lawn" people. I think they deserve to know how night crowds will be handled and will the university take on that responsibility.
i appreciate your thoughts, wendy, and it occurs that my disparagement of the most livable city folks (and others) was just my own crank-hood coming out.
i certainly don't blame them for fighting a major change in their city for the sake of a college football team. these efforts tend to be quixotic in general - if the money's there (and it mostly is, in this case) these projects almost always end up going forward, neighborhoods be damned - but opposition efforts do sometimes succeed at the margins to address noise limits, parking and traffic issues and the like.
i hope they at least accomplish that much in this case.
To your point, there is a vocal contingent that eschews progress when it comes to building. Some of this may also be a distrust and dislike of Northwestern, itself, which owns a lot of property in Evanston yet pays no property taxes. So I think people feel they don’t necessarily do their fair share. They own all the best property but contribute little to the town.
Without NW, Evanston would be a shell of itself. Simple as that.
I think Evanston and Northwestern are mutually exclusive entities. Northwestern owns the best real estate but Evanston still has a lot of the lakefront for its residents. Northwestern doesn't contribute much to the vibrancy of the downtown area, which is baffling. It's nothing like Ann Arbor. Restaurants have a tough time thriving, I rarely see students downtown, they stay to themselves. The university could really help out the Evanston school system but doesn't. Evanston definitely has its own identity separate from Northwestern, unlike Ann Arbor. In my mind, the U of M and Ann Arbor are one and the same. I think Northwestern is an elite island.
A lot of this has to do with the fact that the most public facing aspect of Northwestern is the hospital. The hospital is in Chicago, not Evanston. As is the law school, Kellogg's part program and some other programs and schools.
There are a lot of Evanstonians that have zero interaction with, or care for, Northwestern. I don't think that is true in Ann Arbor. AA is a very unique spot insofar as it really exists because of the school. Bloomington, Charlottesville, Chapel Hill, and Athens are similar. Madison, Austin, Columbus, even Berkeley, all have other robust things going besides the school.
Really good points. Some posters further up correctly point out that we’re talking 6-7 days a year, but one look down the pike at Wrigley Field and one could legitimately be concerned about events taking up 30 or more summer/fall nights annually. That would represent a big and at least someone unforeseeable change.
My husband just pointed out that Wrigley also has winter events so just because it's outdoors doesn't mean everything stops in November. Think winter festivals and skating. If there's money to be made, they will try to make it. Not that some of those things wouldn't be used by the neighborhood residents, too, but it really does change the way the neighborhood is inhabited throughout the year.
to paraphrase jane austen, i agree to it all, for i do not think this deserves the compliment of rational opposition.
From that link:
Northwestern claims it can’t afford to build the stadium if it doesn’t get the zoning change to create a private property tax-exempt entertainment district in the middle of neighborhoods. The City Council should tell Northwestern: “Build what you can afford.”
I was under the impression that Northwestern had raised the money (or had plans to do so). If they've got to rezone part of the city and change the tax laws ... I don't know.
The debate about our own stadium renovation c. 2007 seems quaint in comparison. The U-M athletic department didn't ask for any handout from the city or university, it just wanted to put up skyboxes, paid for with its own funds. The debate was mostly about whether boxes are "collegiate" or not.
I think the point has probably been made elsewhere (and maybe by me) but Northwestern doesn't pay property taxes, so IMO, this adds insult to injury. It's like saying we're going to make even more money than we already do, use more resources but give zero back.
Also tabled, a proposal to add naked bear crawls to the halftime show.
You know, this naked bear crawl sounds really fun. Until you think about who would actually partake in bear crawling while nekkid. It is not the people you hope would be crawling like a bear while naked. So tabling this idea is the more reasonable option.
I'm sure that bears everywhere will agree, also...
naked bear crawling race ….. but include real bears. let’s see how fast those drunk folks can really crawl
Those naked bear crawlers...
Their not sending us their best, that's for sure
Just think how many times they could play that wildcat growl sound.
Absolutely is opportunism.
Which says nothing about whether the stadium is or isn't a good idea.
But rather distasteful, imo.
Their motives may be dubious but yeah, NU kind of has a lot on its plate at the moment.
I am under no illusion that the vocal locals will actually delay the project. However, it seems reasonable to pause and consider their plight. Ryan field is truly in the middle of a residential area and the disruption caused by this project will be massive and last for several years. Who would want that to happen in their neighborhood? No one would.
Most all of us are big Michigan fans, obviously, so imagine you live in Ann Arbor on Brown St. or somewhere else right near the stadium. Then imagine that the powers that be decide to do some kind of major renovation/upgrade that's going to tear up the area for ~2 years. Would your love of Michigan football compensate for the day to day disruption? Detours and orange cones and jackhammers and whatever?
I work remotely but even if I didn't I doubt I would give that much of a fuck.
I'm one of those rare "I mind my own business and all the rest is bullshit" type of people, I guess.
If you’re moving within that proximity of a massive stadium and already dealing with game day chaos, it’s hard to make the argument that you didn’t know what you were getting into. Building a new stadium where one doesn’t currently exist, yeah, I’d be pissed.
Having recently lived in Ann Arbor and having gone to most home football games for several decades, every home game in Ann Arbor is replete with disruption. Traffic on game weekends can be something else and the town is crawling with people.
Personally, I embrace this. Most of us knew what we were getting into by living in a college town.
As for the money spent on a sports facility, I believe that funding that comes from government is a very different beast than what is privately funded. Frankly, it's none of "your" damn business how people choose to spend their discretionary income.
Government funding vs. private funding, yeah there is a difference. But when we're talking about amounts like this, no, it's not a "none of your damn business" thing anymore. This isn't your neighbor setting up a satellite dish in their backyard.
With that attitude, $800 million buys a lot of things you wouldn't think of by staring at your puny paycheck. I could buy up my town's water supply and make it a ghost town almost overnight. I could try to corner a market. It's an amount big enough to create a crisis if misused; frankly, it's actually rather hard to spend $800 million without creating problems. Rich sociopaths have in fact disrupted society just by spending their money, and their behavior sometimes had to be curtailed for the greater good. So we have things like zoning laws, utility regs, environmental impact studies, securities regs. Otherwise, for $800 million I could build a chemical plant next to your place because it's "none of 'your' damn business" if I turn your neighborhood into a condemned toxic waste dump with my discretionary income.
To be clear, renovating an already-standing stadium with private funds doesn't really move my outrage-o-meter. But I mean, that's all that needs to be said. It's not that something like this should be exempt from scrutiny; it's that it's relatively benign when subject to scrutiny. The stadium's already there, so this shouldn't make the area significantly more chaotic than it already is on gamedays, so whatever. No need for the libertarian angle.
Dragonchild,
Ever look up the definition of "virtue signaling?"
You acknowledge that there is a difference between private and public funding and then try and tell someone what to do with their money and in an attempt to make your case you use a bunch of hypothetical fact situations where money becomes the root of all evil. To me saying that your value system is different and better than mine is arrogance in its purest form.
People in this country have the right to do with their money as they please. I don't disagree that directing discretionary income to charities is a good thing, and my family gives a significant amount of money annually to charities that support pediatric cancer, but what we do with our money is up to us. It's none of your damn business. If we were to direct our not so vast fortunes to stadium construction, be it one dollar or a billion, that is our right.
I see the point you're trying to make, but with your proposed situation on living near or around Michigan Stadium, for me any day-to-day disruptions should "come with the territory" of living where you do.
That's what you're buying into by choosing to live near a 110k person stadium, and with the college football arms race being what it is, anyone who pays any attention should reasonably expect that there will be fairly frequent renovations to stadiums and the surrounding buildings every few years. That's just the way it is.
If you're looking for peace and quiet and you choose to live next to or near Michigan Stadium anyway, then you as the homeowner made a poor choice, and that's on you.
Evanston residents may have more of a case to make as they are in a truly residential neighborhood with a 40,000 seat stadium that hardly ever sells out with a largely indifferent fanbase/student body. The culture and atmosphere surrounding Ryan Field on game day, and the attitude and emphasis towards football in general, is night and day between Evanston and Ann Arbor. That's what they're accustomed to, so in a way I get it. Taking their situation and trying to apply it to neighborhoods around Michigan Stadium, at least to me, is apples and oranges.