QB1 Battle between Milton and Cade
Harbaugh on QBs: “we’re going to open it up. Both will see action with the 1s throughout the week”
You will never convince me that Dylan wasn't the best qb on this roster.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
Maybe he was, or had a good shot, but he chose not to stick around to find out.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:30 PM ^
"Maybe he was, or had a good shot, but he chose not to stick around to find out."
Kinda weird how many names this could apply to besides McCaffrey though, no? I can't think of a program with this much attrition. I think someone did the math and PSU has had similar attrition. But they're doing juuuust fiiii...Oh God.
This program is a total shitshow right now. An absurdly low number of 2017 recruits are still on the team, and people are on here shitting on McCaffrey like he's an outlier.
I just took a look at 247 again and holy shit. 21 4 or 5-stars in that class. 3 are still on the team. Vilain, Jeter, and Ross. Granted, some have left for good reason (e.g., Ruiz) but most haven't.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:39 PM ^
It's not just attrition. As Brian pointed out, it's attrition from players who have no business leaving the program. Multiple projected starters decided they'd rather not play football than play for Michigan. When that happens, something is very, very wrong.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:45 PM ^
100% this. When questions have been raised about it the last 2 years the mob shouts them down. It’s was always an issue with the player ?. The program is rotting from the inside out and now it’s to the point it can’t be excused away any longer.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:02 PM ^
Up until this season I was on the JH bandwagon of who could we get that's any better. But in light of what's happening this year, all the posts over the years about this staff and previous staffs being below average at recruiting, the players that are leaving and the play on the field have convinced me that there is something drastically wrong with the program and with Harbaugh.
The only questions remaining are will he walk away in the off season? Will the AD actually do the right thing and fire him? Or will we be stuck with him for at least another year so the AD can see if he can "right the ship"? If its the latter I'm not sure I can suffer through that many more years of coaching turnover, trying to rebuild the program and recruiting (which will suffer over the course of the next year) and just putting UM that much further behind not just top tier programs but lower tier programs in the Big Ten. Basketball and hockey anyone? Because we have become that school. Football apparently no longer matters.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:52 PM ^
If they bring Harbaugh back for another year, you need to extend his contact so he is not a lame duck. The extension can't be for 1 year, so bringing him back involves a multiple year financial commitment. Now is the time.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:10 PM ^
man. . .you put it like that.
I found a way to get even more depressed. . .
November 16th, 2020 at 1:14 PM ^
Let's look at that 2017 class. Ranked by 24/7
Donovan Peoples-Jones WR - Drafted NFL
Aubrey Solomon - DT - transfer to Tennessee
Cesar Ruiz - C - Drafted NFL
Luiji Vilain - DE - On Team
Drew Singleton OLB - Transfer Rutgers
Ambry Thomas - CB - Opt Out
Jordan Anthony - OLB - Transfer ????
Chuck Filiaga - OT - On Team
Tarik Black - WR - Transfer to Texas
Dylan McCaffrey - QB - Transfer ???
Nico Collins - WR - Opt out
Oliver Martin - WR - Transfer to Nebraska via Iowa
Josh Ross - LB - On Team
James Hudson - DT/OT - transfer to Cincinnati
Deron Irving-Bey - DE - Transfer to Central Michigan
Jaylen Kelly-Powell - S - Transfer to Akron
Corey Malone Hatcher - DE - Medically Retired
O'Maury Samuels - RB - Transfer New Mexico State
Donovan Jeter - DE - Still on Team
JaRaymond Hall - OT - Transfer Central Michigan
Benjamin St-Juste - CB - Graduate Transfer to Minnesota
Andrew Stueber - OT - Still on Team
J'Marick Woods - S - Transfer to Duke
Brad Hawkins - WR/S - Still on Team
Joel Honigford - OT - Still on Team
Phillip Paea - DT - Medically Retired
Kwity Paye - DE - Still on Team
Ben Mason - FB - Still on Team
Kurt Taylor - RB - Transfer to Tennessee Tech
Brad Robbins - P - Still on Team
There is nothing you can do about DPJ, Ruiz, Thomas and Collins because they were either drafted or opted out for the draft. Of those who left, where do you see a gaping hole? Solomon would have been nice as a DT but it's not like he wasn't high maintenance before he even signed and its not like he is a star at Tennessee.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:33 PM ^
I see a few "holes" where guys in this class who transferred out could plug-in and play. You already mentioned Aubrey Solomon, but Jordan Anthony probably could have been playing in the 2-deep, perhaps even starting with how poorly Josh Ross has looked. Benjamin St-Juste would certainly be starting over Gray/Green and could've helped eek out a W over MSU. Those are three players at key positions of need/lacking depth. And then of course the most glaring failure is DMac. Now, I still have hopes for Milton, but had we attempted a Brady-Henson dynamic with these two, it may have proven helpful for one if not both of them.
November 16th, 2020 at 3:09 PM ^
I think transfers happen a lot when kids don't see much of a chance of starting and want to head off somewhere for more playing time. The real question is where is the 2018 and 2019 classes to replace them?
November 16th, 2020 at 7:40 PM ^
There are not too many transfers that would be doing anything to help this team right now. It’s a bullshit narrative.
You could speculate the team has some trust and leadership issues from the top but not because of transfers that were beat out and mostly not productive elsewhere.
The McCaffery thing sure seems like it went sideways for stupid reasons.
November 16th, 2020 at 11:15 PM ^
14 players transferred and it's a BS narrative? You're saying if they had stayed they wouldn't be contributing. How is that supposed to make anyone feel any better for the coaches to have whiffed on that many players in a single class?
That class should be upperclassmen making a major impact as experienced players and starters. It really doesn't matter why, just the fact that coaches brought in so many guys that didn't make a contribution really doesn't help the season... at all.
Whether the coaching staff is poor at identifying or retaining good talent, result is still bad.
November 18th, 2020 at 9:58 PM ^
There is very little production on that list of transfers. Call them misses if you want but they weren’t going to make Michigan a good football team.
November 16th, 2020 at 9:23 PM ^
Yeah. Well they happen but it's highly suspect that this many transfers knew for sure they weren't seeing the field and left. It all points back to the high possibility of favorites being played and the meritocracy isn't so cut and dry.
November 17th, 2020 at 8:36 AM ^
I said it before, but it seems like Harbaugh's version of meritocracy tends to favor workhorses who do more extra stuff in the weight room or after practice, or who are yes men who practice well, then actual talent. He seems to prioritize effort over talent. Then again, they also start Corum over Charbonnet, so then my own view here is flawed.
We really don't know exactly what the problem is, and nor does the coaching staff. They have no identity because they don't have a clear two-deep at skill positions. What I mean is, they have "multiple starters" rather than a clear lead back and a clear third down guy. They rotate in all these WRs rather than allowing the clear 1s to play a majority of the snaps. They are half developing guys until those guys decide to leave.
DPJ was favored, so it is weird that he apparently criticizes JH. Same with Lewis. The guys who have beefs that are in the NFL should look at themselves for their inconsistencies. Tarik had a real beef. He left because DPJ and Nico were given preference due to TB's injuries.
There seems to be an inconsistency in how Harbaugh will push for players to play injured or sick, criticize them privately (Hill, DMac), and then use that to lower them on the merit scale. Who does that? That's like 1980s dumb shit where players didn't have options and felt compelled to stick it out.
If you bench a guy for being sick or injured but then don't actually get in the face of players who suck on the field, in the moment they suck, then that to me leads to dissent. See-saw reactions are seen by inside and outside program. Just be an asshole 100% of the time, but do so to get the most out of your players.
It really is okay to pull a kid aside and ask, what were you thinking when you did that? You don't have to bench him for one bad play, but you can address mistakes in the moments they are made and coach them in-game. That doesn't appear to happen, at all.
November 16th, 2020 at 3:18 PM ^
Yeah, there are absolutely some guys you wish the team had back but as you noted a lot of these guys never really panned out anywhere. Oliver Martin has now transferred twice in 2 years, Tarik Black seems perpetually injured and even at Texas has struggled to consistently see playing time, Drew Singleton never seemed to recover from his ACL injury during HS and is struggling to see the field at Rutgers, O'Maury Samules was booted from the team for legal reasons, a couple guys medically retired, etc.
Honestly, 2018 looks pretty solid in terms of hits and yet the 2019 class, the much higher-rated class of the two, seems to be full of more misses. I'm starting to wonder if Michigan is just sort of cursed with high-ranked classes.
November 16th, 2020 at 3:24 PM ^
Phil Paea didn’t medically retire. He is 100% on the roster. He got in about three plays towards the very end of the Wisconsin game. I watched him exclusively. The first two plays he got fucking pancaked beyond belief.
November 16th, 2020 at 3:55 PM ^
Yea I didn’t remember him retiring. Pancaked twice? Ouch.
Edited because I can’t spell
November 16th, 2020 at 4:43 PM ^
Is it really better the players who left wouldn't have contributed much? Why can't this staff develop guys? If it is so obvious guys aren't going to contribute a year in they leave, how are those guys recruited?
I'm more bothered by the hit rate than the transfer rate. Although, they are probably directly corelated.
November 16th, 2020 at 6:38 PM ^
It would be good to see what is a normal "hit rate". You have to remember, there are 85 scholarship players on a team and only about 27ish starters and maybe 40-45 guys you'd expect to play meaningful snaps.
So half of the guys you have on scholarship are necessarily not going to play meaningful snaps.
It's impossible to know who is going to "hit" at the next level. Alabama's strategy when they were building the juggernaut was to get as many guys in each year and weed out the non-hits to bring in ever more guys in subsequent classes. This isn't unlike what Harbaugh did in the beginning. This class would look great if only they had a QB right now.
But since they don't...that's the big failure. Year six and still haven't recruited a good QB.
November 16th, 2020 at 7:57 PM ^
I get the churn and burn theory. I am worried about both hit rates. The players leaving are probably slightly higher than normal, whatever. But JH doesn't develop and get the most out of the players that stay. How many of these kids out played their rankings? Paye and Ruiz? Ambry is probably a wash because we will never know about this season. DPJ and Collins had/have tons of talent that was never fully utilized. A few other guys are solid starters but not difference makers.
I can't think of 10 guys during the JH era where he recruited a guy, developed him and then got every ounce of production out of that talent. Bush, probably a corner or 2, Higdon, a few offensive lineman, maybe.
I think this team is a lot more than a QB away. He is 0-11 as an underdog for a reason. His teams will be what they are. He can't elevate talent, at least not top end talent, not in today's game.
He will beat the body bags and get beat by teams with similar talent that is developed and getting better.
November 16th, 2020 at 5:48 PM ^
Do your three question marks on McCaffrey mean he might be coming back ?
November 17th, 2020 at 10:31 AM ^
No it means I have no idea where he is going to end up.
November 17th, 2020 at 8:31 AM ^
One of the greatest common denominators of coaches who get fired is attrition from recruiting classes. I am a Bowling Green alum. The last two fired head coaches were Gregg Brandon, fired in 2008, and Mike Jinks, fired in 2018. Brandon won a bunch of games but had off field problems that led to on field close losses. Mike Jinks was utterly incompetent at every aspect of the job. One commonality - massive attrition. The result is the coach that followed both - Dave Clawson and Scot Loeffler respectively - inherited absolute train wrecks with no upperclassmen, massive reliance on freshmen and a few transfers, and headache after headache.
If that is the direction Michigan is headed, that is a tragedy. And the next coach will deal with a mess. Who ever takes over next will need patience from the fanbase and alums.
November 17th, 2020 at 11:26 AM ^
yeah, that's actually the scary thing -- we all thought it was because milton was just better, but now in hindsight, he may have just not liked the direction the program was going in. If he was that focused on playing time, he would have transferred -- instead he's still on campus taking classes and not playing football.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
You could convince me...if you were to convince me Cade was better than Dylan.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:22 PM ^
I don't think anyone cares to convince you, it's done
November 16th, 2020 at 12:22 PM ^
Dylan quit the team. I was raised to believe leaders don't quit and leave their team behind.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:30 PM ^
True .... sometimes you get tired of dealing with too much nonsense / BS and it's time to leave. I just get the feeling there was / is a LOT going on with the team and coaches and has been for the past 3 years and it has just gotten worse. Maybe he just got sick of it?
November 16th, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^
I recall hearing rumors (forgot where, Im old) that the staff was emphasizing winning the sprinting and weightlifiting contests more than who was playing the best football, and players were getting tired of it. Anyone else remember this?
November 16th, 2020 at 12:48 PM ^
Exactly. This can happen in any job, not just football. You get tired of dealing with it and end up leaving. Happens a lot in the military as well.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:00 PM ^
Lets wait and see if the kid ever plays again. It's weird because his parents were a big proponent of let the kids play, and then he didn't want to play. Who knows, but it really doesn't matter. Some kids seem to be enjoying the hell out of their time at Michigan. Enough to be recruiting other players and playing their heart out. Others, not so much. Maybe they need to start recruiting a different kind of football player.
November 16th, 2020 at 3:01 PM ^
This is it. Anyone that thinks that it was just the one incident where he was sick and Harbaugh was giving him shit is nuts. This is Harbaugh's MO. "Chickens are nervous birds". "Its a meritocracy", etc. It's not 1998 anymore. Talented kids don't have to put up with that unnecessary bullshit. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be discipline and respect happening at practice, but it goes both ways today, way more than "the good old days" where players just did what they were told and shut up.
November 16th, 2020 at 8:41 PM ^
I think they stopped the sprinting competitions years ago.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^
If there’s a more football centric family than the McCaffery’s I’d like to meet them.
They didn’t just come to this decision because Dylan’s feelings were hurt. This is a potential career saving move by them. That speaks volumes.
November 16th, 2020 at 6:08 PM ^
The Mannings, but yeah, your point is extremely on point!
November 16th, 2020 at 7:32 PM ^
And Eli's draft day situation was for a career saving reason, too.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:48 PM ^
That’s a bad take when you assume he “quit” on the team. We have no idea (except for rumors) at this point. All we know is that he would rather not play at all this year, with no impact to his future eligibility, than to suit up for Harbaugh’s team.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:02 PM ^
He either quit or he didn't. I have never seen a Michigan fanbase embrace someone who left the program more than with McCaffrey. McCaffrey was a 50% passer at Michigan - we have no idea if he would be any better than Milton or Cade and he is injury prone. I hope he does well wherever he ends up and I have said before I think he should move to WR - he is built like his dad.
November 16th, 2020 at 12:51 PM ^
You've only worked for one company in your entire life?
November 16th, 2020 at 1:27 PM ^
But my brain hurts when I try to balance capitalistic pursuits with conservative team values. Can't I just pick which one suits me at the time?
November 16th, 2020 at 1:53 PM ^
Sure, it's just like Jedi situational ethics.
November 16th, 2020 at 8:41 PM ^
Only the Sith deal in absolutes. ONLY the goddamn Sith.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:06 PM ^
That’s nonsense. If Harbaugh decided that Milton was his guy, in spite of some pretty compelling evidence that he shouldn’t be the starter, then what was McCaffery supposed to do? Just sit around and hope that Harbs, a notoriously stubborn individual about things like sticking with his chosen project at QB, would eventually see the folly of his ways and stick McCaffery in for starting duty when the season is already down the toilet.
November 16th, 2020 at 1:10 PM ^
I think Dylan saw how much of shit show this team is and decided it was better for his career to sit out and transfer
November 16th, 2020 at 6:07 PM ^
Is he really transferring for certain ? Or did he just opt out of a season he figured wouldn't finish, thus keeping two more years... he is still in AA I heard.
November 17th, 2020 at 11:07 AM ^
He’s in the transfer portal. He’s still in Ann Arbor so he can get his degree and not have to sit out a year when he leaves for a new school
November 16th, 2020 at 1:24 PM ^
If your wife / girlfriend (or head football coach) is batshit crazy and completely dysfunctional, it isn't "quitting" to leave the relationship / situation. It's actually the healthiest thing you could do.
November 16th, 2020 at 2:16 PM ^
Did anyone raise you to not allow people to shit on you and treat you poorly. Respect goes both ways and it’s fine for coaches to push players to make them better but what happened to Dylan was bullshit and I don’t blame him for leaving. There has been other rumblings from players who have left and it’s not a good pattern for this program
November 16th, 2020 at 11:16 PM ^
What exactly happened to Dylan ????