OT: Whitlock: The 92 Dream Team took on inferior white players because they were white

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June 30th, 2012 at 6:36 PM
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NateVolk
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OT: Whitlock: The 92 Dream Team took on inferior white players because they were white

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/story/whitlock-dream-team-isiah-thomas-shaquille-oneal-snubbed-for-john-stockton-chris-mullin-because-of-race-062712

I happen to like Whitlock's iconoclastic nature, but I don't always agree with him.  Until someone gives me a better explanation for the odd inclusions of Mullin, Stockton, and Laettner over far better and more accomplished players, this one is worth bringing up for discussion.   

I definitely agree that basketball reasons hold no weight. Better and more accomplished alternatives were available for the skill sets these three brought. 

If it was purely present basketball ability, Bird stays home because he was as good as done at that point. Piston fans will recall that Isiah torched Stockton at the Palace for around 40 after the snubbing proving he still was great to elite in the latter stages of his career.

No "Chuck Daly picked the team" either. Because he didn't and the documentary proved that with the promise to Jordan to exclude Isiah.   

 

"because character wins in life and character wins on the football field....."  1-11-11

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June 30th, 2012 at 6:50 PM | I'm sorry, but I can't take (Score:5 Normal)
Lionsfan
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I'm sorry, but I can't take any article by Jason Whitlock seriously. The guy just throws the race card into things just for views, and I can't read that every time

Also, writing that Thomas was snubbed because he wasn't white rather than MJ blackballing him doesn't make it true. And Laettner had just finished one of the best College careers ever at that point, so I can see the reasoning for him over Shaq (at the time nobody knew he would be a huge NBA bust). So again, the constant race baiting thing is really old

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

June 30th, 2012 at 7:04 PM | your opinions about Whitlock don't disprove the charges, though, (Score:5 Normal)
MGlobules
Joined: 11/17/2008
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and this is not a new story. It's likely that a number of popular white players HAVE remained in positions of greater prominence in the NBA through time in order to retain white fan following--you might even find Black people who accept that this was a price paid for moving the sport to greater prominence. Given the racism still directed at the sport, this could come as no surprise.

I raise these issues as a response to what I see as a failure of logic in your post, not as affirmation of Whitlock's charges, though. What we need are people in a position to know to state the truth of the matter. Keeping a great player like Bird on could have made sense whether he was moving past his prime or not--including just to see him play with arch-nemeses from other teams--and there's no doubt Stockton was a great player, whether a more gifted player than Isaiah or not.

A lot of people were rankled by Laettner's inclusion, though, IIRC. Mullin, IIR, was then in one of just a few years of a career that was often not so remarkable, right? 

June 30th, 2012 at 7:38 PM | it's always disappointing when when people downvote (Score:5 Normal)
MGlobules
Joined: 11/17/2008
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a perfectly thoughtful post. Demonstrates a serious lack of self-awareness, considering how stupid and/or reactionary it makes you look. This should be what mods are for, since one simpleton can take a useful strand right out of the conversation. (A thoughtful reader would have to conclude that whoever downvoted my post is likely a bit of a racist himself. But you've got to have a certain amount of self-awareness--that is, have a few brains--to see that people might think that about you before you press the button.)

As a related aside, here's one analyst at a black-owned business about the question of why white plaers have disappeared from hoop. Apparently there's an average of one white, US-born player per team these days: 

http://www.blackenterprise.com/money/decoded/nba-decoded-have-black-athletes-killed-the-white-all-star/

The NBA had certainly accommodated black players by the early 90s, and was reaching its apogee as popular sport. In a way, it was neat that the Dream Team made the league look like such a happy multikulti affair. 

June 30th, 2012 at 8:37 PM | First of all I didn't (Score:2)
Lionsfan
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First of all I didn't downvote your post, I've been outside all day. And second, full disclosure, I was born in '91, so my memories of the Dream Team are "asldjg;kjdgoijdhsa;ijg ballly ballfal sjfl;ksj". So I can't argue whether or not people were rankled by Laettner's inclusion.

But yes, I would bet that there are some white players who have hung around longer just because they're white. But I don't think we should diminish the white guys of the team just because others have hurt their image of white players. Like Mr. Yost said at the bottom. Isaiah was better than most of the black players on the team, why weren't they kicked off for the token white guy?

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

June 30th, 2012 at 6:46 PM | Isiah didn't make it because (Score:4 Normal)
Brown Bear
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Isiah didn't make it because NOBODY liked him, most importantly MJ didn't want him. Stockton is a legend and color had nothing to do with him making it. Mullin was great so I have no gripe with him, Laettner is another story.

I poop excellence
June 30th, 2012 at 6:54 PM | It's absurd to think (Score:1 Normal)
Woodson2daHouse
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It's absurd to think the team was picked based off race, I mean everyone on the team made the HOF except for Christian. At the time they thought CL was going to be something special out of college which is fair to assume but even CL said he was stunned at how competitive the practices were.

ALL DAY

June 30th, 2012 at 6:56 PM | Stockton may be a legend, but (Score:5 Normal)
althegreat23
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Stockton may be a legend, but he wasn't better than Isiah.

"A Michigan Man will coach a Michigan Team"

June 30th, 2012 at 7:18 PM | Your a funny guy. a really (Score:-1 Offtopic)
June 30th, 2012 at 7:26 PM | Did I say he was better than (Score:3 Normal)
Brown Bear
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Did I say he was better than isiah? You must have skipped my first sentence which tells you why isiah didn't make it. Nothing to do with race, MJ and nobody else wanted him on the team.

I poop excellence
June 30th, 2012 at 7:32 PM | Isiah didn't make the team (Score:5 Normal)
TheLastHoke
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Isiah didn't make the team because of politics, and if we're going off of merit, Stockton had a better year in '91-'92 than Zeke did.

Don't believe me? Here are the numbers:

Zeke 91-92: 18.5ppg - 7.2apg - 3.2rpg - 1.5spg - 44.6%fg - 29.1%3pt - 77.2%ft

Stock 91-92: 15.8ppg - 13.7apg - 3.3rpg - 3spg - 48.2%fg - 40.7%3pt - 84.2%ft

The numbers show Stock > Isiah that year.

HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD

Formerly, TheLastProphet

June 30th, 2012 at 7:43 PM | One big confounding factor: (Score:3 Normal)
snarling wolverine
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One big confounding factor: Stockton had a first-team All-NBA guy to pass to and rack up assistants (Karl Malone) while Isiah's best teammate was a 6'3" shooting guard (Joe Dumars).    

June 30th, 2012 at 7:50 PM | I don't think having Karl (Score:4 Normal)
TheLastHoke
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I don't think having Karl Malone would magically double Zeke's assists, make him double his steals, and turn him into a far more efficient player/better shooter of the basketball. 

HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD

Formerly, TheLastProphet

June 30th, 2012 at 7:59 PM | Stockton did not have the (Score:3 Normal)
snarling wolverine
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Stockton did not have the burden of having to regularly carry the offense when it was struggling.  Malone's presence required a lot of double-teams and gave him open looks from downtown.  Isiah was the guy who had to heave up a lot of desperation shots that killed his percentages.

Meanwhile, those late Bad Boy-era Piston teams were seriously limited offensively.  Isiah ranked among the league assist leaders virtually every year, but he didn't have a lot of options to pass to that year.  

 

June 30th, 2012 at 8:13 PM | All of those caveats don't (Score:4 Normal)
TheLastHoke
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All of those caveats don't change the fact that Stockton had a better year. You can play the ifs and buts game, but both of those teams were built around the players they had.

You also can't have it both ways, you can't say that there's no trade off. If Isiah had Karl Malone his assists would have gone up, but his scoring would have gone down, because Malone would have demanded more shots than anybody on that Pistons team.

This is beside the fact that, OF COURSE if you gave Karl Malone to the Pistons and left John in the dust with no one else he wouldn't have been as good of a player. 

If you gave Joe Dumars to the Jazz, Stock probably would have had even more assists, while Isiah would have had less, and been even less efficient as his only other major scoring threat was gone and everyone would have double teamed him into oblivion.

HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD

Formerly, TheLastProphet

June 30th, 2012 at 9:51 PM | I like this back & forth (Score:4 Normal)
Wisconsin Wolverine
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I like this back & forth because you guys are actually arguing about who made the team based on performance & politics so so much better than Whitlock did.  great Odin's raven, there's more to the story than skin color!!!  (but why dig so deep when you can stop at skin color & mail it in?)  sorry ... Whitlock bashing a bit there.  anyway, good stuff guys.

June 30th, 2012 at 8:05 PM | By golly, you're right. John (Score:1 Normal)
Bill in Birmingham
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By golly, you're right. John Stockton feeding Karl Malone did nothing for the Mailman. He just let this dude throw the ball in his vicinity and he did all the work. Malone was a great, great player. But they both benefitted statistically from playing with the other.

June 30th, 2012 at 9:17 PM | By this logic we also should (Score:1 Normal)
umalum16
Joined: 03/12/2012
MGoPoints: 58

By this logic we also should have kicked Magic Johnson off the team because he played with 2-3 HOF players on his roster pretty much his entire career. Let's go back and cut all of his numbers in half just because it's convenient for the current point being made. Yeah, that seems about right.

Regardless, I fail to see why people are arguing this so vehemently just because a documentary came out. Nobody was entitled to be on the team. It's not like some statistical formula was applied to the players that got chosen. If a guy didn't get picked, he didn't get picked. Like it would have mattered anyway. You could have sent the anybody from the top 50 players in the league and they would have routed everybody. If Isaiah wanted to go, maybe he shouldn't have upset so many people during his career.

July 1st, 2012 at 10:51 PM | If you were putting a team (Score:2 Normal)
Yeoman
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If you were putting a team together that was going to have 10 of the best 12 or so players in the world on it, what kind of point guard would you want to go with it? Somebody who was used to being the focal point of his offense, had been for his entire career, or someone who spent his career making sure other extremely talented players got the ball where they could score?

The concern with the dream team was that there weren't enough basketballs to go around. In that context Stockton was ideal.

June 30th, 2012 at 7:00 PM | At that point in his career, (Score:5 Normal)
snarling wolverine
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At that point in his career, I don't think Stockton was considered a "legend."  A good player, yes, but he was still relatively early in his career, whereas Isiah was considered a surefire Hall of Famer.  In pure basketball terms, it wasn't much of a question at that point.  Non-basketball issues (Jordan's feud with Isiah) were the deciding factor.

June 30th, 2012 at 7:33 PM | Why do people keep saying (Score:3 Normal)
Mark
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Why do people keep saying this about Stockton? He was averaging 14 assists at that point in  his career. That's absurd.

June 30th, 2012 at 7:39 PM | Well for one thing, to that (Score:3 Normal)
snarling wolverine
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Well for one thing, to that point in his career, Utah was notorious for bowing out in the first round of the playoffs every year, despite featuring two All-Stars.  Isiah had climbed the mountaintop twice with the Pistons (and came within an eyelash of doing it the year before, when he played on a bad ankle), despite not having any real superstar teammates.  

 

June 30th, 2012 at 8:01 PM | Agree- '88 finals (Score:4 Normal)
BeatOSU52
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Isiah and the Pistons would have won 3 in a row if not for one of the most lobsided officiating in NBA Finals history for the 1988 finals.  That was am awful call on Laimbeer that sent Kareem to the line.

We're not teaching them about sports, we're teaching them about life!

June 30th, 2012 at 6:48 PM | Seriously? This isn't even (Score:4 Normal)
CSree
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Seriously? This isn't even worth arguing; just an absolute waste of time.

June 30th, 2012 at 6:49 PM | HEY (Score:3 Normal)
Frito Bandito
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HEY VINEYARD!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't expect many to get this one

Bears Beets Battlestar Galactica

July 1st, 2012 at 12:24 PM | American History X (Score:1)
Crime Reporter
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Great flick.

Christ in me arise and dispel all the darkness.

June 30th, 2012 at 6:49 PM | It looks as though Fox Sports (Score:2)
MaizeAndBlueWahoo
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It looks as though Fox Sports has done the same thing with their cadre of writers, but the other way around.

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- Mark Dantonio

Blogging the Virginia Cavaliers at http://fromoldvirginia.blogspot.com/<

June 30th, 2012 at 6:49 PM | You lost me at "I like (Score:4 Normal)
SAvoodoo
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You lost me at "I like Whitlock". Maybe it's because I'm too young but who cares? It was 20 years ago and even if they took inferior players they dominated.

Not to mention according to Wikipedia Thomas wasn't on the team because of Jordan, as per Jordan himself.

June 30th, 2012 at 6:50 PM | this is race-baiting bullshit (Score:3 Normal)
Jon06
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Stockton was awesome, and I just read an interview (linked somewhere around here, I think) where Shaq admitted Laettner was more deserving at that point. And it's just ridiculous to bring up race when discussing the Isiah snub. Nobody liked the guy. Nobody wanted him on the team.

I never understood the Mullin pick, but given that I was 9 at the time and didn't like his haircut, that's probably why. Worthy and Wilkins sound like better names, but look at the All NBA Teams those years. Mullin was 2nd team in '90-'91, 1st team in '91-'92. Worthy never did better than 3rd team, only did it twice, and never later than '91. Wilkins has a better record there, but you don't need another big on that team.

RIP my avatar, June 14, 1998 - October 26, 2012.

June 30th, 2012 at 9:30 PM | This is well said. (Score:2)
clarkiefromcanada
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Whitlock, twenty years later, engages in the worst kind of revisionist history that lends to race baiting. That is sad.

To disparage the reputations of hall of fame players like Mullin and Stockton is absurd. To pile on Laettner who was phenomenal in college at that point is just unnecessary.

You'd think Whitlock might come up with something better. Then again, maybe this sort of garbage analysis relates to his talent level.

If the haters don't hate you then you're doing something wrong. - David Cone

June 30th, 2012 at 6:50 PM | Stockton is a HOF and Mullin was damn good (Score:2 Normal)
wolverine1987
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Thomas of course should have been in, but those other two were great

"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite." 

June 30th, 2012 at 6:53 PM | For more of Whitlock's (Score:5 Normal)
Lionsfan
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For more of Whitlock's racebaiting bullshit. At the BBQ with Hoke and Meyer a couple weeks ago, he tweeted this photo of the two:

 

Saying how uncomfortable Meyer looks around black guys compared to Hoke. Whitlock is a jackass

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

June 30th, 2012 at 6:59 PM | Hoke probably is more (Score:5 Normal)
gbdub
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Hoke probably is more comfortable around black guys. And white guys. And everybody. Mostly because he's a nicer guy. And he's DEFINITELY more comfortable around a plate of ribs. Yeah, Whitlock is an ass.

June 30th, 2012 at 7:02 PM | Wait that wasn't sarcasm? He (Score:4 Normal)
Frito Bandito
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Wait that wasn't sarcasm? He really said that about Urbs?

Bears Beets Battlestar Galactica

June 30th, 2012 at 9:54 PM | so, just to confirm - if I (Score:2)
Wisconsin Wolverine
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so, just to confirm - if I keep moderating you once you've hit 5, it does give you more points?  you need more points for this.

June 30th, 2012 at 10:10 PM | moderating him to 5 in the (Score:1)
Jon06
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moderating him to 5 in the first place doesn't give him any points.

RIP my avatar, June 14, 1998 - October 26, 2012.

June 30th, 2012 at 7:44 PM | He LOVES Hoke (Score:2 Normal)
Mr. Yost
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It goes back to the Ball St roots. He loves Hoke and hates how Ball St. treated him.

With that said, Whitlock is still a joke.

“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”

June 30th, 2012 at 8:23 PM | Yeah I remember when we first (Score:2)
Lionsfan
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Yeah I remember when we first hired Hoke, Whitlock had a column about how Hoke was going to be better than Harbaugh. But, there's ways of putting down Urban compared to Brady without drawing in race

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

June 30th, 2012 at 6:54 PM | This is absolutely... (Score:1 Normal)
SpreadGuru
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race baiting and Whitlock has been doing that for years.  Isiah "cut his own throat" by leaving the court early in '91 and let's face it (although it will be hard for you Pistons fans), Isiah was never well liked and didn't deserve it. 

Now to the race issue...last time I checked Stockton and Mullin were hall of famers.  If you want to debate Laettner, then so be it but why does this always have to come down to race with Whitlock?

"Forty-two Big Ten Championships!"

June 30th, 2012 at 6:56 PM | It's the only card he has to (Score:5 Normal)
ckersh74
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It's the only card he has to play.

There's a good reason he's been shit-canned from every place he's ever been. He's the Rob Parker of national media. 

June 30th, 2012 at 7:28 PM | The Pistons walked off of the (Score:5 Normal)
PIJER
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The Pistons walked off of the court because the night before Jordan was running his mouth to the Press about how the Pistons weren't real champions and were bad for basketball. There is such a thing as professional courtesy, and Jordan never gets talked about for his lack of it. I truly agree that Isiah wasn't well liked, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't deserving. Jordan simply didn't want to play with him. There may have been chemistry issues, but Thomas should have been on the team. I believe that they would have settled their differences for one summer.

"Homey don't play dat"

June 30th, 2012 at 9:30 PM | Jordan, etc. (Score:3 Normal)
Jasper
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Agreed. Jordan has been a huge a$$ many times, but he rarely gets called on it.

On the main topic, someone (brave) should suggest to Whitlock that he gets to toot his idiotic horn only because of his color. (Not sayin' it's true ... just that it might be appropriate in this setting.)

Also, while I'm here, Laettner was on that trip because he was (and remained, for many years after) a focus-group darling. Why else would they show that Kentucky shot of his for so many years after that '92 game? Great game, great shot ... just not *that* great. No way was he more deserving than Shaq / Alonzo Mourning that year.

"500 channels and nothing but cats."

June 30th, 2012 at 10:15 PM | wait a minute (Score:2 Normal)
Jon06
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everybody knows jordan's an asshole. when he gave his HoF induction speech, all anybody talked about was how he didn't need to be such a dick during it. when has he ever not gotten called on it?

RIP my avatar, June 14, 1998 - October 26, 2012.

June 30th, 2012 at 10:37 PM | He hasn't gotten called on (Score:4 Normal)
Lionsfan
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He hasn't gotten called on stuff he did in his playing career

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

June 30th, 2012 at 11:47 PM | am i too young (Score:2 Normal)
Jon06
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or is this just like a fixation for pistons fans? i didn't know people had a big problem with him until this thread.

RIP my avatar, June 14, 1998 - October 26, 2012.

July 1st, 2012 at 10:46 AM | Read the SI article (Score:2 Normal)
DaytonBlue
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On how he continues to lie about his HS coach. Understand the greatest player tag and self-motivation, but dont think its just Detroit bias.

June 30th, 2012 at 7:31 PM | just like Bird et al (Score:5 Normal)
HermosaBlue
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left the court in 1988 without shaking hands after the Pistons finally slated the Celtics.

Jordan, Jackson and the Bulls called the Pistons a crime against basketball and assailed them the whole season in the media. in short, they were dicks. When they finally got past Detroit there was so much bad blood it could not possibly have been a surprise that they would walk off just like Bird and the Celtics (other than Michale, who showed class).

June 30th, 2012 at 7:59 PM | Well said. (Score:3 Normal)
BeatOSU52
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It is amazing how the national media loves to point out the famous "walk out" by some of the Detroit players but they never seem to ever bring up what MJ and Phil said the night before.  Simply put, some people forget how big the Pistons-Bulls rivalry said.  Some guy on sports radio (might have been someone on the Freddie Coleman show) was talking about KG getting all this criticism for not shaking hands against the Heat but he actually liked that he didn't because you know what, KG made it clear that he hates the Heat and the Heat hates him so why fake some hug after getting eliminated?

We're not teaching them about sports, we're teaching them about life!

June 30th, 2012 at 8:24 PM | AWESOME! (Score:4 Normal)
bluenectarine
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you guys remeber that too! It is why they walked off because instead of being a gracious WINNER...Jordan had to be a total D-ck the night before....it reminds me of how EVERYONE forgets in 2000, Tiger was using the new Nike ball that was like the Titelist Pro-V1 but Titelist's Pro-V1 hadn't come out yet! Most of the other golfers were using the Titelist Professional ball which was so inferior its scarey. It doesn't mean that Tiger isn't great or whatever, but please, that ball was gigantic....

July 1st, 2012 at 2:14 PM | Because: sportsmanship. (Score:2)
Bobby Digital
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Because: sportsmanship.

June 30th, 2012 at 6:54 PM | Nothing to see there (Score:2 Normal)
rob f
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...other than, in that team photo, I don't see a single non-white member of the coaching staff.

As for Zeke, I think there's more than enough documentation out there to convince me that Jordan was the main reason for the non-inclusion of Thomas on that team.

 

 

 

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