OT - Teaching jobs in MI and MA
August 11th, 2016 at 2:01 PM ^
As someone currently living in Boston, I don't think you are going to find it all that much cheaper than New York. However, if you like long commutes you can live far outside the city and rents get reasonbale.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^
Maybe not Boston proper, but many of the suburbs aren't as bad. I lived in Watertown this year and that wasn't too bad, and Medford last year was just fine. Basically as long as you've got a car and aren't commuting into Boston proper it should be much better than NYC.
August 11th, 2016 at 8:22 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 2:42 PM ^
Yeah. I should have been a bit clearer; suburbs are fine. My wife grew up in Newton, so we know the relative costs aren't great. But the way we figure, any savings are welcome, and having family around helps.
I've lived in Cambridge and Waltham for summers before, and even places like Alston and Arlington are reasonable options. And we aren't expecting to live in a huge house or have expensive tastes, so hopefully keeping up with the Joneses either places won't be a problem.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:02 PM ^
The other option is to find a private school that doesn't require a teaching certificate. But my experience with private school salaries (which is restricted to a few religious schools) is pay sucks. Really sucks.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:05 PM ^
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August 11th, 2016 at 2:09 PM ^
I taught at a private school for a while. At least in my case, I made less money than my peers, but had fewer student behavior problems. I was also asked to do a lot more outside of my typical hours (without pay) than my peers.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:03 PM ^
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August 11th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^
I concur. I teach in Ohio, and if a district doesn't have a license then they probably won't interview. The "highly qualified teacher" mandate from No Child Left Behind scared districts from touching people if they didn't have their certificate in place. Even though NCLB is no longer a standard, I have seen zero cases of districts not requiring licensure in the prospective area.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:03 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 2:18 PM ^
I've heard that. She's been reasonably well compensated here in NYC for her course load (~$55k/yr for 3/4 time, full health and 401k), but again these are private schools where the headmaster makes north of $1M.
She's fine getting a teaching certificate, but if she needs to spend 2 years jumping through hoops before places will even talk to her, that's less appealing. Not a deal-breaker if that's the only option, but just wondering.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:24 PM ^
Didn't realize she's already at a private school (see post below). There aren't as many private schools in Michigan as on the east coast, but there's probably more than people realize. She should definitely get on Carney Sandoe for the next hiring cycle.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:44 PM ^
Cool. Yeah, she used them once before to get a job while finishing her defense. I'll suggest she kick the tires again.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:37 PM ^
Odds are that a district will find her less appealing with a PhD due to the pay, but I'm sure that if she interviewed and said she would be willing to accept a gradual climb to the pay entitled by her education, they might listen. For example, maybe she asks for X years experience at bachelor's +15 hours (this will depend on the district). After her first year, she would then add a year, but jump to bachelor's +30 hours. The third year would pay her master's step, and the following year would pay the master's +40 (that's where my district stops).
I'd just be vocal about accepting a gradual increase in pay so a district wasn't scared off by the prospects of paying a new teacher at the far right of the scale.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:46 PM ^
Absolutely. We've talked; she doesn't view the Ph.D. as a replacement for classroom experience. She just wants to not have those extra years/knowledge ignored completely. And again, you don't go into teaching expecting to make a fortune; the flexibility with summers and kids is a major reason she's interested in teaching.
August 11th, 2016 at 5:41 PM ^
We went through this in Ann Arbor area.
Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), you can't accept less pay as a PhD (down to BA level for instance) to make your self more marketable to public schools, because the teachers' union contract (in AA area) wouldn't permit that. So, public schools have to pay at the PhD rate. Even though they're "committed to hiring the best teachers", they're not committed enought o pay (in many cases) for those with advanced degrees.
We got around it by accepting a shit-paying private school job.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:04 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 2:06 PM ^
but, I'm guessing you know a lot about with the wife being from there and all. I'm not a teacher, but my brother and Mom are. One concern (that might not be a concern) is that your wife has masters and PHD, which means she would come in at a higher pay (I think, teachers can weigh in). This might make it harder for her to grab a job. My brother entered during a tough market and ended up going to one of the poorest districts in the state. His pay is lower than many other districs, but the state is going to pay off his student loans (I think), and he has been able to make a huge difference in the community.
Good luck wherever you go. I know that teaching has become a lot tougher in the last 10 years with all the emphasis on testing. We need as many good teachers as possible.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:27 PM ^
I doubt the state will pay back all of his student loans. Is that just because of the school district he chose to work in? I know my wife's district gets something like $5,000 a semester and they distribute it evenly amongst all that were taking classes. Her pay also went up with each class she completed until she maxed out.
August 11th, 2016 at 5:19 PM ^
where, if he stays there for 10 years, he has to pay a certain amount on his undergrad loans, but all will be forgiven after that time. I don't talk money too much with him, but it was a part of the reason he stayed where he was, besides being able toreally help the community. His wife turned down a nice job in East Grand Rapids to stick around and help the community. Amazing how tough some kids have it.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:06 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 2:16 PM ^
The nice thing about Boston is that it's got colleges out the ears and there's a cultural value for education meaning teachers make decent (not great, but better than cold ramen) pay in many areas, which is why we live here as opposed to something like 40+ states riding the anti-intellectual movement. But -- and if Mrs. bronxblue is from here this should need no explanation -- Boston is not a place you move to just for opportunity, no matter the opportunity. There's opportunity here, unemployment rate is below national average, but property is expensive, commutes are terrible, it's oddly curmudgeonly in many ways (the average age is something like 80 in a lot of the wealthy areas) and you can't avoid certain amounts of crazy in your life.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:22 PM ^
Yeah, all stuff we know. Her parents live in a very nice suburb along the Green line, and it's crazy how expensive it is.
We expect the cost of living to be high in the Boston area, but it is a bit lower than NYC, which helps. And we're fine with reasonably commutes; I'm on a subway line and mine is still north of an hour most days, sometimes closer to 1.5 hours. So even a consistent 45 minutes will work.
August 11th, 2016 at 3:54 PM ^
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August 11th, 2016 at 8:46 PM ^
Many teachers are not intellectuals, but parrots. Teaching does not make one an intellectual. Critical thinking as well as thinking independent are what make one that.
How many teachers do you actually know? Are you basing this opinion on actual firsthand observation, or cheap political rhetoric?
August 11th, 2016 at 2:25 PM ^
The public schools I'm applying to in SE Michigan all ask for your teaching certificate ahead of time. I didn't apply at DPS who are desperate but also not always paying their employees, they're the only ones who are desperate enough to potentially not. Massachusetts is one of the best states in the country education wise and pretty highly regulated, I would guess they're very similar. Private/charters she could probably manage. Provisional certificate requires graduating from a degree program, so she's probably out of luck.
Job market depends on the subject. Science she'd probably do pretty well, even after another year of school. Her only issue might be that with a Ph.D she'd start a little higher on the salary steps so schools super concerned about the budget might hesitate.
If she was willing to go back to school, the MAC program (Master's and Certification) at Michigan would almost definitely take her. It's intense, one year (starting in June), and if she were willing to work in high needs schools it's likely she could get tuiton paid for with a Noyce Fellowship. The guy who runs the STEM half (and is lead science faculty, so she would have him all the time) of the program was my favorite college professor ever.
EDIT: Also if your issue with New York is that it's expensive and the commutes suck, Boston is probably not the best idea.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:26 PM ^
Cool. I've heard the same.
As a Ph.D., she doesn't expect to be paid an outrageous salary, only not like a 1st or 2nd-year teacher. I mean, she's resigned herself to the fact she'll probably be more "qualified" in the subject than some of her peers, and that's fine. She just doesn't necessarily want to start at $38k a year if at all possible.
Boston is expensive; we get that. At the same time, it is cheaper than NYC, and depending on where you live the commute isn't terrible. I worked there for 2 sumers eons ago, and I survived the commute.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:32 PM ^
You can poke around area schools to find their contracts with the unions to see what a realistic salary would be. WIth a master's and no additional education, first years in Ann Arbor make like 43k. She'd be a bit above that but not too much. I think the highest in SE Michigan I've seen was around 50 at Gross Pointe (surprise!).
August 11th, 2016 at 2:51 PM ^
That makes sense; I've seen similar numbers in NYC (with a bit of an increase due to cost of living). It's more the progression capability; this link shows you can crack $60k a couple years into teaching if the steps correspond to years. That's reasonable.
August 11th, 2016 at 10:34 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 3:10 PM ^
It doesn't look like UM offers a Noyce program for graduate students.
August 11th, 2016 at 3:20 PM ^
I had friends who got it last year and went to recruit people to join it for this cohort.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:15 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 2:17 PM ^
My wife and I left Michigan to move to Charleston, SC about 4 years ago. She was able to land a job at a public HS in Charleston without having her certification first. Her Michigan certification sufficed until she could apply for the SC cert. That one wasn't even a retesting. Then we moved to Orlando, and she had to apply for a teaching certificate again. It was again not a recertification process. Super easy, and she worked for a Charter school, and then this year she moved to a public MS. The only caveat is that she is a Spanish teacher, so I am not sure how that equates to Bio. I also work in the technology field, and I have found it pretty easy to get a job in each city that we have moved to. The nice thing about her new gig is that she can also teach full time for FL virtual school which effectively doubles her salary. I am not positive on MA, but I believe the schools up north are probably a bit more strict on the certification side of things because schools in the south are quite terrible. I know we did a great deal of research on the topic before moving but we ultimately just had to take a leap of faith. Good luck!
August 11th, 2016 at 2:34 PM ^
Thanks. We'll keep digging in. But yeah, the certification part is the tough hurdle.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:21 PM ^
With a PhD and no teaching cert, she should seriously look into teaching at a private/independent school. Carney Sandoe (http://www.carneysandoe.com/) is the big head hunter for independent schools, so she could start there. Independent schools will like the PhD; they may or may not pay a ton extra for it. Positives about independent schools are many, though. The independenty hiring season for teachers is early spring or even late winter, so she should get stuff together this fall and plan for a move next summer.
I'll second the MAC program. I know many teachers in the Ann Arbor area that are products of it. You'll get your cert, which could lead to a higher-paying public job, but the program will probably run 40K. Might be better to seek out independent schools instead (or while applying to the MAC as an option).
August 11th, 2016 at 2:28 PM ^
I work in public education, and have even moved to a different state and found a job. I agree tha the most desireable places probably won't even look at her without an in-state license, or proof of the ability to get one right away.
From what I gathered from your post her degrees are Biology and not biology education degrees. She should talk to different universities as many have different requirements and timeframes to complete the degrees. It would be more helpful to have the degree and license in hand.
That said, there are certainly places that have trouble filling some science positions. I have not worked in Michigan, but other states have alternative paths to licensure for someone in your wife's situation. Michigan's is called MARITC.
I hope this helps!
Edit: For hard to fill positions folks can get temporary licensure with one or two years to complete their degrees. It varies by state.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:54 PM ^
Thanks. I saw MARITC somewhere else; we'll look into it.
It's funny - I'm an attorney as well, so I shouldn't be surprised by all the licensing requirements to teach, but it's still jarring.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:24 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 2:54 PM ^
Thanks. Definitely something she'll look into.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:29 PM ^
If she wants to be a full-time teacher she'll need a ceritficate at the vast majority of the schools in this state. (If a school doesn't ask for a certificate, that's a pretty large red flag.) Working without a certificate basically means subbing or being a parapro.
Fortunately, U-M's School of Ed has a program - which I went through myself - called Master of Arts with Certification. It's a 12-month program in which you cover 40 credits and also observe and student-teach. It's intense but only a year.
If she's interested in secondary, here's the link.
For primary, the link is here.
These are small programs and admission is competitive. They run from June to June, so the new cycle has already begun. They'll be admitting next year's in the coming months.
As far as actually looking for a job, this is definitely the best site.
Virtually every public school is in their database. For private schools, you have to hunt around a little more.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:56 PM ^
The MAC program is fairly expensive... I'd suggest looking at similar programs at other schools if money is a concern. The Michigan difference isn't going to be as much of a big deal for a secondary teaching position unless she is hoping to work at seriously elite prep schools and UM-Dearborn offers a MAT degree that is modeled on UMAA's MAC for roughly half the cost (and fewer credit hours).
August 11th, 2016 at 3:09 PM ^
Thanks. I've seen the MAC show up a couple of times. It's expensive, but again we are looking for a long-term solution so the cost can be amatorized a bit.
August 11th, 2016 at 4:31 PM ^
August 11th, 2016 at 4:55 PM ^
With good teaching jobs tough to get, I think the Michigan difference is worth it. We just had two candidates for an opening. One was just finishing MAC, one was just finishing regular UM undergrad + teaching cert. We went with the MAC applicant because the extra time in the classroom was apparent and we've had a lot of success hiring out of that program. It has a very good reputation.
However, like I said above, PhD + a few years of independent school... you can find another very solid independent school job with that if you're somewhat flexible geographically.
August 11th, 2016 at 5:11 PM ^
It does kind of depend on the person... two of my friends are now teaching, one went to MAC and the other did not. The one who went to MAC legitimately needed it because he'd been in a research intensive field and had no idea how to teach. The one who did not had been working teaching ESL for years trying to make it as a writer and picked a cheaper option she could complete around her schedule. Both ended up with solid public school jobs... one in AA, the other in suburban Detroit. Many paths to the top of the mountain, etc.
August 11th, 2016 at 5:39 PM ^
Absolutely. As with any industry, so much will come down to fit anyway. I think the MAC program, while being heavy with the Ivory Tower theory that you'd expect from UM, does an excellent job getting future teachers in the trenches and honing the craft of teaching.
And then, some of the best teachers I work with never did any kind of Ed program and aren't even certified! Though, they're pretty rare and pretty acadamia oriented anyway.
August 11th, 2016 at 5:11 PM ^
It does kind of depend on the person... two of my friends are now teaching, one went to MAC and the other did not. The one who went to MAC legitimately needed it because he'd been in a research intensive field and had no idea how to teach. The one who did not had been working teaching ESL for years trying to make it as a writer and picked a cheaper option she could complete around her schedule. Both ended up with solid public school jobs... one in AA, the other in suburban Detroit. Many paths to the top of the mountain, etc.
August 11th, 2016 at 5:31 PM ^
Yeah. I can definitely see the value of the program, but I also think she's coming from a more experienced place than your average "starting" teacher. And she had to create curriculum at the college and HS levels, so it won't be a huge shock, I hope.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:35 PM ^
I'm a new teacher in Boston area. Compared to NY it's almost as expensive with almost as long commutes.
I did not have a license when I started, and I don't think you have to. I don't even have an education degree, it's a science degree. I have to take a few classes, do some training, it's not too bad compared to a Ph.D. You have to pass a test. What Bluesalt said. It's an easy test - if you have a brain you'll pass.
The district I'm in had a lot of competition, about 15 applicants for every job, though I t hink it's easier for sciences. And it's an "urban" district with some behavior problems.
Boston itself is supposed to be a very bad district to work for, according to my fellow teachers, badly behaved kids, bad work conditions for teachers. Newton has bratty rich kids with obnoxious parents, but pretty good otherwise. Cambridge is in between.
Usually you can find information about pay online. My district pays for Ph.D. and I think most districts do. Beyond that, it's pure seniority system where you get higher pay every year you're in the system. (EDIT, my district starts Ph.D.'s at around 62k)
lol senior/AP though. You won't get that until you've been there a while. Also she has to take AP training, so it's not happening for at least a year.
Good luck.