OT - Teaching jobs in MI and MA

Submitted by bronxblue on
I figured this would be as good a time as any to post this, what with OT season coming to an end and this place being a bit slow.  
 
It really is a story as old as time:  BronxBlueWife is from Boston, I'm from Metro Detroit.  We met at Michigan, fell in love, then were seduced by the siren song of low-paying graduate school positions and absurd rents to NYC.  8 years later, BronxBlueWife, BronxBlueKid1, BronxBlueKid2, and I are looking to escape the greatest city in the world.*  We are leaving because it is expensive, cramped, expensive, loud, expensive, features long commutes, expensive, and far from family, and expensive, even though it has a lot of great museums, ways to spend money, great food, ways to spend money, cultural events, ways to spend money, and employment opportunities, and ways to spend money.  So we are trying to figure out where to go next.
 
* According to people who haven't seen much else of the world.
 
I'm pretty flexible in terms of employment; I'm a software developer, and can hustle for a job in most markets.  Wife just finished her Ph.D. in Biology and would like to teach at the MS/HS level (preferrably senior/AP level, but she's flexible).  She's lectured at the college level and also was a teacher at a couple of prep schools in the area (think $40k/yr for 4th-grade, UES-types). She's fine either teaching in the public or private school systems.
 
Her concerns are two-fold:
 
1)  She doesn't want to get a teaching certificate before she has a job; she's fine doing it concurrently, but another year or 2 of schooling for the chance to maybe get a job is unappealing.  If this is an option, how does it all work?  Do you get temporarily certified and then take courses at night/weekends?  Online?  Does it matter what district you are in?  EDIT:  And to be clear, she's fine getting a teaching certificate, but wants to know if it's possible to be working while doing so.
 
2)  What is the relative quality of job market?  Are the districts/schools reasonably well funded and have resources to encourage learning?  I know that teachers always say they have limited resources, but jusr general senses are fine.
 
We've narrowed down our search to Metro Detroit/A2 and Boston.  Does anyone have any pointers, suggestions of resources to consult, war stories, etc. regarding finding teaching jobs in either area and their relative difficulty/quality?  I know it's open-ended, but we are looking to move next May so I'm just trying to get a lay of the land.
 

Mgotri

August 11th, 2016 at 2:01 PM ^

As someone currently living in Boston, I don't think you are going to find it all that much cheaper than New York. However, if you like long commutes you can live far outside the city and rents get reasonbale. 

MGoRobo

August 11th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^

Maybe not Boston proper, but many of the suburbs aren't as bad. I lived in Watertown this year and that wasn't too bad, and Medford last year was just fine. Basically as long as you've got a car and aren't commuting into Boston proper it should be much better than NYC.

bronxblue

August 11th, 2016 at 2:42 PM ^

Yeah.  I should have been a bit clearer; suburbs are fine.  My wife grew up in Newton, so we know the relative costs aren't great. But the way we figure, any savings are welcome, and having family around helps.

I've lived in Cambridge and Waltham for summers before, and even places like Alston and Arlington are reasonable options.  And we aren't expecting to live in a huge house or have expensive tastes, so hopefully keeping up with the Joneses either places won't be a problem.

julesh

August 11th, 2016 at 2:02 PM ^

I can't speak to the job market or MI or MA specifically, but I know that my sister in FL got her teaching certificate concurrently while teaching, but to do so she had to teach in low income, failing schools. Her first couple of schools were charter schools, which typically teachers try to get out of, because the benefits are so much better in public schools.

The other option is to find a private school that doesn't require a teaching certificate. But my experience with private school salaries (which is restricted to a few religious schools) is pay sucks. Really sucks.

shswhit51

August 11th, 2016 at 2:05 PM ^

This is true. Most charter/private schools may not have the same requirements with regards to licensure as a public school. But be warned. Charter schools are death traps and most public institutions treat you like you have been struck with the plague when you are trying to get out. Private schools will pay nowhere near the amount a public school would most generally



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shswhit51

August 11th, 2016 at 2:03 PM ^

From my experience thinking about switching states and teaching they wouldn't even accept my app without having a teaching license on file from that state



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Eat Your Wheatlies

August 11th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^

I concur. I teach in Ohio, and if a district doesn't have a license then they probably won't interview. The "highly qualified teacher" mandate from No Child Left Behind scared districts from touching people if they didn't have their certificate in place. Even though NCLB is no longer a standard, I have seen zero cases of districts not requiring licensure in the prospective area. 

chunkums

August 11th, 2016 at 2:03 PM ^

It will be very, very difficult for her to get a decent job in Michigan without a teaching certificate IMO. I'm also not sure many districts will be willing to pay her at a PhD level if she isn't certified. Harsh, but that's my take.

bronxblue

August 11th, 2016 at 2:18 PM ^

I've heard that.  She's been reasonably well compensated here in NYC for her course load (~$55k/yr for 3/4 time, full health and 401k), but again these are private schools where the headmaster makes north of $1M.

She's fine getting a teaching certificate, but if she needs to spend 2 years jumping through hoops before places will even talk to her, that's less appealing.  Not a deal-breaker if that's the only option, but just wondering.

Eat Your Wheatlies

August 11th, 2016 at 2:37 PM ^

Odds are that a district will find her less appealing with a PhD due to the pay, but I'm sure that if she interviewed and said she would be willing to accept a gradual climb to the pay entitled by her education, they might listen. For example, maybe she asks for X years experience at bachelor's +15 hours (this will depend on the district). After her first year, she would then add a year, but jump to bachelor's +30 hours. The third year would pay her master's step, and the following year would pay the master's +40 (that's where my district stops). 

I'd just be vocal about accepting a gradual increase in pay so a district wasn't scared off by the prospects of paying a new teacher at the far right of the scale.

bronxblue

August 11th, 2016 at 2:46 PM ^

Absolutely.  We've talked; she doesn't view the Ph.D. as a replacement for classroom experience.  She just wants to not have those extra years/knowledge ignored completely.  And again, you don't go into teaching expecting to make a fortune; the flexibility with summers and kids is a major reason she's interested in teaching.

gasbro

August 11th, 2016 at 5:41 PM ^

We went through this in Ann Arbor area.

 

Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), you can't accept less pay as a PhD (down to BA level for instance) to make your self more marketable to public schools, because the teachers' union contract (in AA area) wouldn't permit that. So, public schools have to pay at the PhD rate. Even though they're "committed to hiring the best teachers", they're not committed enought o pay (in many cases) for those with advanced degrees.

 

We got around it by accepting a shit-paying private school job.

julesh

August 11th, 2016 at 2:04 PM ^

Also, you may have better luck if you are willing to move during the school year, since there are fewer applicants for jobs then. But, at the same time, there are fewer job openings mid year.

Hail-Storm

August 11th, 2016 at 2:06 PM ^

but, I'm guessing you know a lot about with the wife being from there and all.  I'm not a teacher, but my brother and Mom are.  One concern (that might not be a concern) is that your wife has masters and PHD, which means she would come in at a higher pay (I think, teachers can weigh in). This might make it harder for her to grab a job.  My brother entered during a tough market and ended up going to one of the poorest districts in the state.  His pay is lower than many other districs, but the state is going to pay off his student loans (I think), and he has been able to make a huge difference in the community.

Good luck wherever you go.  I know that teaching has become a lot tougher in the last 10 years with all the emphasis on testing.  We need as many good teachers as possible. 

Lou MacAdoo

August 11th, 2016 at 2:27 PM ^

I doubt the state will pay back all of his student loans. Is that just because of the school district he chose to work in? I know my wife's district gets something like $5,000 a semester and they distribute it evenly amongst all that were taking classes. Her pay also went up with each class she completed until she maxed out. 

Hail-Storm

August 11th, 2016 at 5:19 PM ^

where, if he stays there for 10 years, he has to pay a certain amount on his undergrad loans, but all will be forgiven after that time. I don't talk money too much with him, but it was a part of the reason he stayed where he was, besides being able toreally help the community. His wife turned down a nice job in East Grand Rapids to stick around and help the community. Amazing how tough some kids have it. 

noWolveyes

August 11th, 2016 at 2:06 PM ^

She will be able to hire in at some Metro Detroit districts especially a charter school. If she has certification in another state it's easier. Experience plus willing to work on cert is enough for some districts. Science is a tough one to fill so she should have some options. Detroit Public Schools probably has science openings.

dragonchild

August 11th, 2016 at 2:16 PM ^

The nice thing about Boston is that it's got colleges out the ears and there's a cultural value for education meaning teachers make decent (not great, but better than cold ramen) pay in many areas, which is why we live here as opposed to something like 40+ states riding the anti-intellectual movement.  But -- and if Mrs. bronxblue is from here this should need no explanation -- Boston is not a place you move to just for opportunity, no matter the opportunity.  There's opportunity here, unemployment rate is below national average, but property is expensive, commutes are terrible, it's oddly curmudgeonly in many ways (the average age is something like 80 in a lot of the wealthy areas) and you can't avoid certain amounts of crazy in your life.

bronxblue

August 11th, 2016 at 2:22 PM ^

Yeah, all stuff we know. Her parents live in a very nice suburb along the Green line, and it's crazy how expensive it is.  

We expect the cost of living to be high in the Boston area, but it is a bit lower than NYC, which helps.  And we're fine with reasonably commutes; I'm on a subway line and mine is still north of an hour most days, sometimes closer to 1.5 hours.  So even a consistent 45 minutes will work.

 

SalvatoreQuattro

August 11th, 2016 at 3:54 PM ^

Lumping teachers with intellectualism warrants a minus. Many teachers are not intellectuals, but parrots. Teaching does not make one an intellectual. Critical thinking as well as thinking independent are what make one that. Then one must also consider that the best propaganda comes by way of the school. One only need to look at now despotic regimes employ centers of education to understand why people distrust schools that have been hijacked by ideologues. If we had an education free of political influence and infiltration the respect and trust level would be much higher.



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enlightenedbum

August 11th, 2016 at 2:25 PM ^

The public schools I'm applying to in SE Michigan all ask for your teaching certificate ahead of time.  I didn't apply at DPS who are desperate but also not always paying their employees, they're the only ones who are desperate enough to potentially not.  Massachusetts is one of the best states in the country education wise and pretty highly regulated, I would guess they're very similar.  Private/charters she could probably manage.  Provisional certificate requires graduating from a degree program, so she's probably out of luck.

Job market depends on the subject.  Science she'd probably do pretty well, even after another year of school.  Her only issue might be that with a Ph.D she'd start a little higher on the salary steps so schools super concerned about the budget might hesitate.

If she was willing to go back to school, the MAC program (Master's and Certification) at Michigan would almost definitely take her.  It's intense, one year (starting in June), and if she were willing to work in high needs schools it's likely she could get tuiton paid for with a Noyce Fellowship.  The guy who runs the STEM half (and is lead science faculty, so she would have him all the time) of the program was my favorite college professor ever.

EDIT: Also if your issue with New York is that it's expensive and the commutes suck, Boston is probably not the best idea.

bronxblue

August 11th, 2016 at 2:26 PM ^

Cool.  I've heard the same.

As a Ph.D., she doesn't expect to be paid an outrageous salary, only not like a 1st or 2nd-year teacher.  I mean, she's resigned herself to the fact she'll probably be more "qualified" in the subject than some of her peers, and that's fine.  She just doesn't necessarily want to start at $38k a year if at all possible.

Boston is expensive; we get that.  At the same time, it is cheaper than NYC, and depending on where you live the commute isn't terrible.  I worked there for 2 sumers eons ago, and I survived the commute. 

enlightenedbum

August 11th, 2016 at 2:32 PM ^

You can poke around area schools to find their contracts with the unions to see what a realistic salary would be.  WIth a master's and no additional education, first years in Ann Arbor make like 43k.  She'd be a bit above that but not too much.  I think the highest in SE Michigan I've seen was around 50 at Gross Pointe (surprise!).

o0MaizeNBlue0o

August 11th, 2016 at 10:34 PM ^

Crazy tidbit: teachers can't import their "teaching years" into Michigan schools for more pay based on your experience. i.e., you don't get credit for however long you've taught somewhere else. Not that this relates to you at all, but it's something to keep in mind if she teaches for several years, then moves here. (This also might be for Calhoun country schools only (southwest Michigan), as this is our experience).

Simps

August 11th, 2016 at 2:17 PM ^

My wife and I left Michigan to move to Charleston, SC about 4 years ago. She was able to land a job at a public HS in Charleston without having her certification first. Her Michigan certification sufficed until she could apply for the SC cert. That one wasn't even a retesting. Then we moved to Orlando, and she had to apply for a teaching certificate again. It was again not a recertification process. Super easy, and she worked for a Charter school, and then this year she moved to a public MS. The only caveat is that she is a Spanish teacher, so I am not sure how that equates to Bio. I also work in the technology field, and I have found it pretty easy to get a job in each city that we have moved to. The nice thing about her new gig is that she can also teach full time for FL virtual school which effectively doubles her salary. I am not positive on MA, but I believe the schools up north are probably a bit more strict on the certification side of things because schools in the south are quite terrible. I know we did a great deal of research on the topic before moving but we ultimately just had to take a leap of faith. Good luck! 

MGoBender

August 11th, 2016 at 2:21 PM ^

With a PhD and no teaching cert, she should seriously look into teaching at a private/independent school.  Carney Sandoe (http://www.carneysandoe.com/) is the big head hunter for independent schools, so she could start there.  Independent schools will like the PhD; they may or may not pay a ton extra for it.  Positives about independent schools are many, though.  The independenty hiring season for teachers is early spring or even late winter, so she should get stuff together this fall and plan for a move next summer. 

I'll second the MAC program.  I know many teachers in the Ann Arbor area that are products of it.  You'll get your cert, which could lead to a higher-paying public job, but the program will probably run 40K.  Might be better to seek out independent schools instead (or while applying to the MAC as an option).

Cville Blue

August 11th, 2016 at 2:28 PM ^

I work in public education, and have even moved to a different state and found a job.  I agree tha the most desireable places probably won't even look at her without an in-state license, or proof of the ability to get one right away.

From what I gathered from your post her degrees are Biology and not biology education degrees.  She should talk to different universities as many have different requirements and timeframes to complete the degrees.  It would be more helpful to have the degree and license in hand.

That said, there are certainly places that have trouble filling some science positions.  I have not worked in Michigan, but other states have alternative paths to licensure for someone in your wife's situation.  Michigan's is called MARITC.  

I hope this helps!

 

Edit: For hard to fill positions folks can get temporary licensure with one or two years to complete their degrees.  It varies by state.

bluesalt

August 11th, 2016 at 2:24 PM ^

If your wife passes the MTEL exams (teaching certification test) she can have a five-year license while she teaches and takes the required courses she'll eventually need. So she can do as you hope -- work and take classes simulatenously.

snarling wolverine

August 11th, 2016 at 2:29 PM ^

If she wants to be a full-time teacher she'll need a ceritficate at the vast majority of the schools in this state.  (If a school doesn't ask for a certificate, that's a pretty large red flag.)  Working without a certificate basically means subbing or being a parapro.

Fortunately, U-M's School of Ed has a program -  which I went through myself - called Master of Arts with Certification.  It's a 12-month program in which you cover 40 credits and also observe and student-teach.  It's intense but only a year.  

If she's interested in secondary, here's the link.

For primary, the link is here.  

These are small programs and admission is competitive.  They run from June to June, so the new cycle has already begun.  They'll be admitting next year's in the coming months.

As far as actually looking for a job, this is definitely the best site

Virtually every public school is in their database.  For private schools, you have to hunt around a little more.

 

Brodie

August 11th, 2016 at 2:56 PM ^

The MAC program is fairly expensive... I'd suggest looking at similar programs at other schools if money is a concern. The Michigan difference isn't going to be as much of a big deal for a secondary teaching position unless she is hoping to work at seriously elite prep schools and UM-Dearborn offers a MAT degree that is modeled on UMAA's MAC for roughly half the cost (and fewer credit hours). 

Brodie

August 11th, 2016 at 4:31 PM ^

My opinion on the MAC program is that it's like buying a Ferrari for your daily driver... it's pricey and not the most practical choice but the experience is going to be way better than the alternatives. Very few people need a $40k teaching cert from an elite school... it would be a great way to separate yourself from a crowd of people who went to Directional Michigan, but someone like Mrs Bronxblue likely wouldn't need that extra push. I'd shop around if you go this route.

MGoBender

August 11th, 2016 at 4:55 PM ^

With good teaching jobs tough to get, I think the Michigan difference is worth it.  We just had two candidates for an opening. One was just finishing MAC, one was just finishing regular UM undergrad + teaching cert.  We went with the MAC applicant because the extra time in the classroom was apparent and we've had a lot of success hiring out of that program.  It has a very good reputation.

However, like I said above, PhD + a few years of independent school... you can find another very solid independent school job with that if you're somewhat flexible geographically.

Brodie

August 11th, 2016 at 5:11 PM ^

It does kind of depend on the person... two of my friends are now teaching, one went to MAC and the other did not. The one who went to MAC legitimately needed it because he'd been in a research intensive field and had no idea how to teach. The one who did not had been working teaching ESL for years trying to make it as a writer and picked a cheaper option she could complete around her schedule. Both ended up with solid public school jobs... one in AA, the other in suburban Detroit. Many paths to the top of the mountain, etc. 

MGoBender

August 11th, 2016 at 5:39 PM ^

Absolutely.  As with any industry, so much will come down to fit anyway.  I think the MAC program, while being heavy with the Ivory Tower theory that you'd expect from UM, does an excellent job getting future teachers in the trenches and honing the craft of teaching.

And then, some of the best teachers I work with never did any kind of Ed program and aren't even certified! Though, they're pretty rare and pretty acadamia oriented anyway.

Brodie

August 11th, 2016 at 5:11 PM ^

It does kind of depend on the person... two of my friends are now teaching, one went to MAC and the other did not. The one who went to MAC legitimately needed it because he'd been in a research intensive field and had no idea how to teach. The one who did not had been working teaching ESL for years trying to make it as a writer and picked a cheaper option she could complete around her schedule. Both ended up with solid public school jobs... one in AA, the other in suburban Detroit. Many paths to the top of the mountain, etc. 

eric_lanai

August 11th, 2016 at 2:35 PM ^

I'm a new teacher in Boston area.  Compared to NY it's almost as expensive with almost as long commutes.


I did not have a license when I started, and I don't think you have to.  I don't even have an education degree, it's a science degree.    I have to take a few classes, do some training, it's not too bad compared to a Ph.D.    You have to pass a test.  What Bluesalt said.  It's an easy test - if you have a brain you'll pass.

 

  The district I'm in had a lot of competition, about 15 applicants for every job, though I t hink it's easier for sciences.  And it's an "urban" district with some behavior problems. 

 

Boston itself is supposed to be a very bad district to work for, according to my fellow teachers, badly behaved kids, bad work conditions for teachers.   Newton has bratty rich kids with obnoxious parents, but pretty good otherwise.  Cambridge is in between. 

 

Usually you can find information about pay online.  My district pays for Ph.D. and I think most districts do.  Beyond that, it's pure seniority system where you get higher pay every year you're in the system. (EDIT, my district starts Ph.D.'s at around 62k)

 

 

lol senior/AP though.  You won't get that until you've been there a while.  Also she has to take AP training, so it's not happening for at least a year.

 

Good luck.