OT: "Please Score a Goal, Argentina" -- huge WC upset
Pretending Evita is singing this after Saudi Arabia scored two quick goals in the second half - and held on to pull off what is considered as one of the biggest upsets in World Cup history -- is making my morning an interesting one.
From a parity perspective, I don't know where this sits in ranking differences, but it's a big one. Argentina was a pre-WC favorite to lift the trophy.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:12 AM ^
While I've never seen a greater talent disparity turn into a loss, is it ever an upset when Argentina loses? They've underperformed for the last 30 years. They can never seem to play like a team.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:16 AM ^
Only relative to the sky high expectations. It's like when UM doesn't win the B1G every year or OSU doesn't win the NC. Still a great team that has generally done very well in big tournaments...just hasn't done as well as the fans want. Usually loose in the final or semi until this past Copa America which they finally won.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:18 AM ^
Agree. I feel like every world cup they under perform and Messi says he's done with international soccer and then miraculously he's back underachieving with them again.
I'm interested to see Portugal, not for Ronaldo...but because they have some really good young talent that I think could make some noise. Might be 4 years too soon, but they could be very interesting.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:44 AM ^
Argentina has played in 5 of the past 7 Copa America finals. And in the World Cup final in 2014. Not sure that is underachieving.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:49 AM ^
They only really disappointing tourney they've had is the 2018 one where they went out in the R16 (although to eventual champion France on a PK shootout). That probably paints the vibe around them since most people don't pay attention to the Copa America outside of South America.
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:58 AM ^
It wasn't a shootout. They lost 4-3. They had a chance in the final minutes to send the game into extra time, but missed. Maybe the game of the tournament at any rate (Belgium-Japan was up there, too).
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:14 AM ^
It is when the expectation has been to win each time they entered a tournament in the last 20 years and they didn't win a single one until this past year. It's underachieving relative to their own expectations, not relative to the rest of the world.
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:31 AM ^
that cup final in 2014 is the only time they've gotten past the quarters since 1990. i'd describe that as the very definition of underachieving for a country with that kind of history.
November 22nd, 2022 at 6:32 PM ^
What's their history? They had a great run from '78 through '90 (won it twice and runner-up once) but other than that they've only made it past the quarterfinals 2 other times (1930 and 2014).
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:20 AM ^
Argentina had been on a 36 game unbeaten streak.
I think the second longest streak of its kind in national soccer.
So yeah: it's a huge upset.
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:49 AM ^
I suppose I need to clarify, they underperform in the World Cup. They always look like world beaters in the leadup, give you false hopes about a revival of their 1980s form, then fizzle out at the Mundial.
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:11 AM ^
It's really hard to do well at the WC, and literally every major country crashes out on occasion. All the more devastating because it takes four years to get another chance.
Every power national team has underachieved just in this century. The only country that has won a World Cup that hasn't had a major disappointment in the last 20 years has been Uruguay, and I only classify them that way because people don't have the same expectations for them that they do for the other title-holding nations. Italy, the defending European Champions, did not even qualify.
So it's not remarkable that Argentina has tossed out some lemons. Given their player mix, it's not even that remarkable that they haven't always been favorite. However, another group-stage exit this year *would* be an eyebrow raiser, given their form and expectations. It would be hard not to suggest that it's more of a trend with them.
They've still got two games to play and they can easily win out, so it's by no means over. But this was... not a good start at all. This is the sort of thing that can prompt total meltdowns.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:14 AM ^
Instead of coming back to win, maybe Messi and friends were worried about being dismembered by the Saudi's?
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:22 AM ^
I think Messi is going to be just fine with the Saudis...
https://theathletic.com/3918644/2022/11/22/messi-saudi-arabia-2030/
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:37 AM ^
It’s paywalled, what is the gist of the article? Having lived in there recently for a couple years, Vision 2030 is everything and everywhere in KSA.
November 22nd, 2022 at 1:31 PM ^
Same as the LIV golf stuff. KSA throws a bunch of oil money around to get famous Westerners to talk nicely about them. Goes into detail about the stuff that's been tweeted/publicized
“This is not his first visit to the kingdom and it will not be the last,” said Ahmed al-Khateeb, the Saudi minister of tourism, in a tweet that showed Messi’s welcome at King Abdulaziz International Airport.
...
Messi later joined Princess Haifa Al-Saud, assistant minister of tourism, on a tour of old Jeddah.
“I am glad that he was mesmerized by its essence, heritage and beauty,” Princess Haifa said on Twitter.
...
The Visit Saudi website now has a Messi landing page, “Lionel Messi wants you to unleash your inner thrill-seeker and uncover the unimagined. Whether you travel to discover new things, old things, or just to awaken something new inside yourself, Saudi satisfies on all fronts. So what are you waiting for? Plan your adventure now!”.
And then it also goes into details about Turki Al-Sheikh, the chairman of "Saudi General Entertainment Authority", and how they're getting people to help promote the country, despite all of the super shady shit that goes on there.
(Al-Sheikh) was responsible for organising a fixture between Brazil and Argentina there in 2019, where his football club, Almeria, published a social media clip of Messi and Al-Sheikh hugging in the tunnel before the match with the caption “two lions”.
...
“The MBS brand has been probably irreparably damaged by the Khashoggi killing. And, you know, Saudi Arabia’s brand was certainly tarnished by it. And the more you can cozy up, either directly or indirectly, to world celebrities and then can burnish the brand of Saudi Arabia accordingly, I think he thinks will reflect well on (Al-Sheikh) as well.”
...
Khalid Al-Jabri, whose brother and sister remain jailed, told The Athletic: “I don’t mind players such as Messi going to play in Saudi as part of a team, because I don’t think Saudi fans should be deprived of that opportunity just because of atrocities committed by those who govern the country. What I have a problem with is Messi the individual making himself a tool for Saudi sportswashing.
“He sold himself to the devil.”
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:03 AM ^
And so it begins.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:16 AM ^
FIFA, Argentina, and Saudi Arabia. Three corrupt and morally bankrupt entities with billions of dollars at stake and the winning team having virtually limitless financial resources with zero transparency. And the 'biggest upset in the history of the sport'?
Seems legit. Nothing to see here...
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:28 AM ^
If the US beat Brazil in the world cup, we'd be saying something similar.
November 22nd, 2022 at 12:03 PM ^
I wouldn't... Outright bribery is illegal in the US, and at least frowned upon by most. In Saudi Arabia it's ingrained int he culture.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:46 AM ^
Are you trying to say that Saudi wealth bought the win? Because it certainly didn’t buy them a better or more talented team than Argentina. If you’re going tinfoil hat on this the best it bought them was 3 Argentina goals overturned on VAR for offsides.
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:17 AM ^
“the best it bought them was 3 Argentina goals overturned on VAR for offsides.”
Technology for which we should all be very grateful.
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:49 AM ^
There is already news about Qatar bribing 5-7 Ecuadorian players in the first match. And that’s certainly plausible given the bribes they paid to host the games.
So this poster is suggesting the Saudi’s paid off Argentinian players. It’s also very plausible. Christian Romero, one of the greatest backs in football was a joke only just briefly. And Argentina with their win streak, wins this game 99/100 times and probably still expects to go through.
Rich Middle East money paying South American teams off. Just another potential scandal for these games.
November 22nd, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^
So this poster is suggesting the Saudi’s paid off Argentinian players. It’s also very plausible.
I'd find it very implausible. These aren't amateur athletes, they're super-rich professionals. They don't need Saudi bribe money.
OTOH, the Saudis might be able to get to the officials.
November 22nd, 2022 at 7:25 PM ^
LIV golfers are super-rich professionals too..
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:31 PM ^
They're not paid to lose on the big stage.
November 22nd, 2022 at 12:04 PM ^
I would check any offshore accounts of the three Argentinian players who were offsides for unusually large deposits.
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:46 AM ^
I was actually thinking this about Qatar winning the Asian cup in 2019. Watched their game a couple nights ago and they are absolutely terrible as expected. No way they won that Asian cup fairly. Given the well known and publicized corruption that went into them turning the world cup into a shitshow I'm fully convinced they paid off some countries, players, referees to win that trophy so they could have some clout leading up to this tournament.
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:01 AM ^
No wonder the Qatari fans left the Ecuador game early and disgusted. Their money didn’t work this time.
November 22nd, 2022 at 12:08 PM ^
I am saying that the (far superior) Argentinian players all had a really bad day, coincidentally against an immensely wealthy country with a history of corruption and zero transparency, in a sport whose "governing body" is also demonstrably corrupt.
November 22nd, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^
Another interesting fact is that Messi is being paid 25 million per year by the Saudis to promote tourism.
November 22nd, 2022 at 1:32 PM ^
But they didn’t have a bad day really. They dominated most of the game, had three times the amount of shots and shots on goal, owned time of possession, passes completed, etc.
This is why it’s a historic upset. Saudi Arabia had no business winning and still did.
November 23rd, 2022 at 11:07 AM ^
I am watching these on Peacock in Spanish on replay for the most part. I had my tin foil goggles and hat and didn't see anything other than a goalie take an unfortunate guess under duress.
It was legit, but Argentina played better overall. Time of possession and quality shots were decidedly to the blue stripes.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:17 AM ^
Hell yeah. I mean, like politically and human rights-y stuff I'm not all about Saudi Arabia winning. But also them winning means more difficult for Mexico to get out of their group. And really, sports is mostly about schadenfreude.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:24 AM ^
I could have definitely gone down a political rabbithole on this one, but I've been to Bolivia this year already.
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:18 AM ^
There is a big difference between politics vs corruption/scandal in sports. This is easily the latter. Plus murder of a reporter isn’t politics. It’s a crime.
November 22nd, 2022 at 1:21 PM ^
I agree, but there is a particular strain of American politics that is fine with looking the other way during those situations that I'd rather not stir up.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:38 AM ^
Argentina had 3 goals ruled out in the first half for offsides. Seemed to deflate them a bit. And on 2 of those goals the goal scorer’s feet were onside. It was only their arm or torso that was beyond the line. That rule needs changing. I have seen way too many amazing goals wiped out because someones knee or elbow was an inch past the defender despite their feet being well behind.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:52 AM ^
Agreed. It reminds me a lot of when they review out of bounds plays in basketball; for a century on the playground, the ball was always awarded back to the offense after a defender swipes at a ball causing it to go out of bounds. Now we review it to see if the fingertips of the offensive player were last to touch it. In soccer, having your feet in line with the last defender was always onside regardless of your arm or torso. We should have replay but shouldn’t change the spirit of how the rule has been enforced for a century.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:56 AM ^
No, it is not different. The review rule in basketball is not applied equally throughout the game. That's the problem with it. Possession in the first two minutes of the game is just as impactful as possession in the final two mintues. It is applied much more equally in soccer. Personally I am a fan of enforcing the rules equally and consistantly. If you don't like the rule, change the rule. Don't get made at technology that makes it easier to make the correct ruling.
November 22nd, 2022 at 8:53 AM ^
Well, it's not a goal. Because he was offside. They don't give teams a second goal when a player kicks the ball into the again during a celebration after some scores.
There is always a line. If you did that, then next it would be 'I've seen so many good goals because just a toe was over the line'. Or "come on it was just one foot over the line". We don't have these debates about the whole ball having to cross the line for a goal.
Everyone knows the rule. There's technology to make sure it is applied equally across all games. Stay onside if you want your chance to count.
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:07 AM ^
"that world record setting pole vault would have been phenomenal if they didn't hit the bar off"
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:16 AM ^
If someone is standing in bounds but their nose is hanging over the line they are still in bounds. I am not saying it shouldnt be enforced. I am saying the rule is dumb.
November 22nd, 2022 at 9:28 AM ^
I think the offsides rule will always limit the appeal of soccer to Americans.
In American sports, the entire point is to get behind the defense. Soccer bans getting behind the defense.
November 22nd, 2022 at 10:44 AM ^
Hockey seems to be doing well. The line of scrimmage and putting the ball in the pitcher's hands seems to do the same thing as offside rules in zone based sports.
Basketball is different. I didn't neg here but I disagree. What's more this is a great off season thread topic. I'm not adverse to offsides in hoops. Cherry picking and break aways are the issue.
Fundamentally Soccer does not suffer from the offsides rule. It benefits. I would argue Basketball could as well. The 3 point shot has helped the game.
November 22nd, 2022 at 12:08 PM ^
Offsides in basketball would be awful. Movement without the ball would be hampered far too much. Keep in mind that a basketball court is far smaller than a soccer field.
November 22nd, 2022 at 1:01 PM ^
November 22nd, 2022 at 1:30 PM ^
There wouldn't be room for the players to move around on offense. Defenses would set their offside trap as far from the basket as possible and spacing would be impossible. You'd just see a lot of contested threes.
I agree that the 3-point shot helped basketball, but it did exactly the opposite of your suggestion - it extended the amount of the court that defenses needed to cover, which opened up the game inside. An offsides rule would shorten the area defenses need to cover, bogging things down.
November 23rd, 2022 at 4:08 AM ^
Hmm... I agree the 3pt extends the defense (as well as giving the offense an edge to cut.)
The Soccer offsides would not work in hoops for the exact reason you state, but the Hockey offside would work (half court == blue line), and improve the sport - uncontested baskets are showy but not necessarily better Basketball.
A zone offsides, like hockey has, would take the jogging out of transition as well. Defenses would have to wait at half court for the ball and maybe even help bring the ball up. This would make pressing less risky and walking the ball through the backcourt less likely.
Berries and nuts it will never happen, but I think it would be a better sport - more friendly to ball handling, backdoors and teamwork, as opposed to wasted time jogging up court with half assed contested guard play to bring the ball up.