Link. Some pretty alarming issues here, especially midnight practices in underwear and having one girl to imitiate a sexual act on the laps of several band mates, including her own brother.
OT- Ohio St Band Director Fired for "sexualized" Culture
Oh cool, we can stop fawning over the dinosaur halftime routine.
How do these people get jobs in education?
''What are you doing?'' ''I just shoved a trumpet in your ass, aren't instruments fun?''
The dot all things with tubas.
Underwear practice in the stadium with booze... How in the hell does that happen? Who in charge doesn't think "I would lose my job for this"
This actually sounds kinda fin
Well, it was definitely "fin." The band director's "fin" that is...
As much as I'd love to roll in on making fun of our rival, this really isn't that big of a deal as far as I'm concerned. Its college. Hope none of the people who complained have never or will never attend a local HHH event.
Edit: Except for the girl who had to interact with her brother. That's gross.
Yeah, sexual harassment is cool as long as it's not with your sibling.
that's the thing. I don't consider most of the things in that article as harassment. It may be a culture that some find uncomfortable, but in the corporate world harassment implies that someone has power over another and its used to get something.
It really does not. I could go down to my HR department, smack someone on the ass or make a sexual comment to someone, gain no "power," and get fired for sexual harassment.
and after looking up the lawful definitions, it may appear that I'm being either naive or overly tolerant. The main point I was trying to make is that I've been part of the HHH for several years and this type of behavior is considered tame in comparison.
1. Some of us don't know what HHH is, other than a Minnesota politician and a juiced-up wrestling heel. A google search suggests an activity related to "hashing," but I can't tell if that is what you're talking about.
2. If HHH events really are notorious for that kind of activity, it's a good bet that people who dislike such activities would give it a wide berth. However, it is not widely thought that marching bands are a place where that should be expected; indeed, a lot of people from different ethnic, moral, religious, and political backgrounds may in fact grow up thinking that being in the Michigan or OSU band would be a dream come true, without considering that they may be asked to simulate sex acts on family members.
And they shouldn't be forced to deal with that kind of thing just to march on a field and play a fight song.
And yes, that's what I'm referring to, "hashing." And I'm backing off on my stance, no need to lecture. I get all the feedback, many apologies.
Whoa whoa whoa. Juiced up wrestling heel? Everything I've ever seen/heard/read about Triple H is that in real life he's a really good dude. What makes him a heel?
Heel= bad guy
Baby face = good guy
They are just nicknames for archetypes of wrestler personalities
Other than a professional wrestler, that is?
An adult social group, for the most part.
that doesn't help me at all. Still have no idea what you're talking about.
Maybe your club is just full of degenerates and you're desensitized.
You've heard of hashers then, yes?
They sound like a bunch of pretentious alcoholics who get together to validate their debauchery, and judging by your description of what goes down at the hashing club, that notion appears to be valid.
your place of employment is terrifying and illegal if that is the message they are sending. harassment is not limited to bosses/important people.
Yeah, there still are some backward prudes who aren't comfortable marching around with 250 compatriots in their underwear while the booze is flowing freely. With the explicit endorsement of band staff that is present.
See, if the culture is corrupt enough to make that "ok," it's also quite possibly ok with the idea of humiliating new members in ways that can be sexually degrading. And those prudes who don't like it can either suck it up and keep quiet, or they can quit and give up the life-long dream of marching in the band before your favorite team's home games and maybe even dotting the "I."
Great set of options there.
forcing you to do something sexual in nature that makes you feel uncomfortable in order to be a part of an organization.
yeah. not harrasment at all.
I know everybody thinks the OSU band is soooooo cool but every time I saw them play all I saw was this
Was he also the band director at Great East Falls High School? I once overheard a redhead say she did some very questionable things at band camp with her flute.
Looks like other poster beat me to the obvious punch
Can't speak for the Michigan Marching Band recently, but I know when I was in it in the early 90's there was NONE of this kind of s*** happening. Hell, one guy got suspended for just making a loud public sexual innuendo towards a girl during a group meeting, and honestly everyone knew he was just being a stupid goofball. But it just wasn't tolerated.
Also, we were told that if we were caught drinking on bowl trips we'd be put on the next flight home. Doesn't mean it still didn't happen, but it was explicitly forbidden, and there was no wink-wink nudge-nudge going on.
I'm not saying we were perfect or anything, but there is no way in hell stuff like this would have ever been tolerated. We were told that we represented the University, and ANYTHING done that would shine a negative light on Michigan was pretty much a zero tolerance zone.
Pasquale would probably literally skin you alive if you were drunk at practice or on a trip.
Apparently the Glock Bus, bus 6 when traveling, was no longer an entity at Michigan by the 1990s. It was a guys-only bus. The motto was "what goes on the Glock Bus stays on the Glock Bus," long before Vegas started using that line in its marketing. We sang tasteless songs, did tasteless things, but it was all in good fun and as soon as we got off the bus we were excessively straight-faced about the whole thing. When Wisconsin's band came to Michigan in 1984 their whole band behaved publicly like we behaved privately on that one bus. We gave them an appropriate Michigan welcome into our practice facility -- we stood aloof. I was in the band from 83-87.
Bus 6 is still the "rowdy" bus (or was 10 years ago), and it's co-ed, but you are correct: No one is there that doesn't want to be there, and when that thing stopped moving, everyone knew they were about to represent the "M" in public and acted accordingly.
The Glocks were still a think in the early 90's but I never did ride on their bus. So maybe some s*** went down on that bus that I never heard about--can't say that it didn't. But there was certainly never anything at a practice or anything that anyone on the staff was ever aware off that was tolerated or tacitly approved of.
I mean, I'm not saying people didn't make sexual jokes--c'mon this is college we're talking about. I'm saying there is a definite difference between people making some crude jokes on a road trip and the stuff talked about in that report.
Yes, that's exactly how it was in the 80's, too. There was zero tolerance for anything remotely inappropriate being done anywhere it could be witnessed by a non-MMB member, and anyone who rode bus 6 was informed of its reputation before riding. We referred to ourselves as "The Gentlemen of Bus 6." And really, what happened on the bus was quite tame; just bar room silliness types of things. "The drinking age of the Michigan Marching Band is 65" was the official line the director told the whole band. Keeping any violations completely secret was part of the fun.
stayed on the Glock Bus. But then again, every other bus had a Captain, we had a Rear Admiral.
And there was a lot expected of you if you were a Glock. Determining exactly the right amount of bags for everyone was a lot of responsibility for 18-20 year olds....
Just after that time, on a band trip, the busses were stopped and several cases of adult beverages were found and removed from bus 6. After that the Glocks were still Glocks, but there was no longer an official Glock Bus. And things were toned down quite a bit.
I marched in the '89 through '92 seasons.
I suspect the Glocks have faded into memory.
A couple times, between the OSU game and the end of the semester, when we knew it would be inside rehearsal only, a few of us went to Dominic's before rehearsal. But thinking about a full rehearsal drunk makes me think about throwing up... :)
Ahhh.... That explains it. I had heard rumors to that effect. RIP Glock bus. I think the Glock bus was a throwback to the days when the band was all-male (which it was into the early 70s, I believe). Apparently the tunnel before pregame was a bawdy place in those days, but no old-timers I ever spoke with were willing to divulge details. Amazing the Free Press never got hold of that story.
It never happened. Ever. It was actual really impressive, given the hazing culture surrounding band just about everywhere. That's not to say it never existed in the past, because it did, but not now.
Didn't Wisconsin's band get suspended a few years ago for alcohol and sex-related activities?
"This one time, at band practice..."
See this is the kind of shit that happens when you let Ohio State exist. Hopefully someone will finally do something. Stupid politicians worrying about budgets, immigration, health care and all that other crap while they ignore the greatest scourge to out society: Ohio State. Time to wake up America!
Buckeyes are truly offensive.
from a school---and a marching band---with a fight song named "Carnal Ohio"?
I haven't heard anything about Ohio's band being out of control before. I have heard stories from various people in the MSU band community about Wisconsin. Apparently MSU's band director banned them from coming back after a trip there.
Yeah, I think the general consensus is that Wisco is out of control. They don't have a great history with coming to UMich either.
I had friends in the OSU marching band and when I asked them about Wisconsin's band when all that stuff was happening with their marching band getting suspended, they told me the OSU directors were just much better at hiding it.
They report a bunch of secondary violations and conceal the really dirty stuff.
Something like that. I believe that the OSUMB students had to take breathalyzer tests before and after games. Those kind of things tell the administration that the directors are (apparently) on top things. You really have to think of the ensemble as an athletic sport though. It's how they're viewed and how they're treated by just about everyone. If it would happen on a football team, it happened in their band but since they aren't all the same gender...
I seem to recall in the 80s or 90s the MSU band got in trouble for a hazing practice called "assing". Study it out.
Still has the best quote ever in the story:
"If you know you are going to get assed, you try harder not to make a mistake." Words to live by.
It was highly doubtful I would ever go to MSU regardless, but I basically decided I could never go there as I read that article at the breakfast table. I was 12.
was a lot like a frat house on wheels.
They forced people to march in their underwear and perform mock sex acts. That's clearly sexual harrassment.
I think it's safe to say that the NFL wouldn't give a shit about any of this.
Depends. Is there a joint involved? If so, then HAMMER OF JUSTICE! If not, then, eh, they just made a 'mistake'. Hold out your wrist.
...a PR problem. And then out of no where BAM!!!:
a press conference, some studies and a ten year progressively less lax enforcement campaign.
Some of the things in the report are mind-boggling when you try - in vain - to comprehend what in blazes went through Waters' mind on a day-to-day basis. For example:
"Each new Band member (traditionally called a “Rookie”) is assigned a nickname by upperclassmen. Multiple witnesses noted that many such nicknames are sexually explicit or have an implicit sexual meaning. One witness said that in 2013, all three new members of one row had sexual nicknames: “Captain Dildo,” “Barker,” and “Pat Fenis.”"
The report lists some nickname that are extremely demeaning, even outright discriminatory. The so-called "Tricks" performed - either on command or at the leisure of the individual - were typically related to the nickname, according to the report as well. There are also mentions of "rookie introductions", which involved sexually explicit questioning and there was even an instance described where someone was made to use a dildo as a microphone.
There were publications as well which floated around which included disparaging things about various people in the band as well as "The Songbook", which as mentioned in the link, included sexually explicit (by some accounts, misogynistic) lyrics written around various school fight songs, even their own.
Much of this is mentioned in the article, but the report has more detail and individual accounts which mke you hope that Mr. Waters never has the opportunity to work in education or near students again. To that effect, Mr. Waters' views on the nicknames:
When asked to estimate how many current nicknames are sexual or offensive, Waters responded that “fifty percent” probably were “questionable.” When asked whether he thought such sexual nicknames are appropriate, Waters answered, “No.” When asked why he then tolerates such sexual nicknames, Waters replied, “Good point.”
"Pat Fenis" hahahahahahah
I like how Michigan hires normal people.
Between the sparty professor that got naked during a lecture and ran around and this, hiring normal people is becoming one of Michigan's top underrated qualities.
had an assitant coach who used a stuff animal as a prop on the sideline of football game. He rubbed it in the face of an adult football player approximately 100 lbs heavier than him.
Because that's the same thing as running naked around a classroom?
Who was that assistant coach? This is the first I've ever heard of that.
Greg Robinson. YouTube the Wisconsin game from the year where they ran all over us. Search Greg Robinson teddy beat.
Alright will do, I can only imagine how funny/awkward this probably was.
Is one of the most hard working, tenacious animals on the planet.
Predictably, the response from 11W is shock...that he got fired.
and say he was afraid Waters was going to fire him. Those Dinosaur halftime shows are that aweomse.
I think Urbz didn't really want him. He cooled on him. Not a big loss.
mentality of college.
If their band could hide this for so many years, it makes you wonder what else that school could be hiding.
I wonder if the president of the university was ever worried if Jon Waters might fire him/her?
Now "dotting the i" is kind of a euphemism -- like "hiking the Appalachian Trail."
Didn't the director of the MMB leave for OSU about 20 years or so ago?
Sorry, but marching in their underwear and nicknames...color me unimpressed. Kids being kids. More PC to appease the lunatic fringe.
Yeah, no big deal if they're doing it at a party where everyone there is choosing to be there.
Kinda a big deal if you're a freshman (female especially) and upperclassmen are telling you to come to practice at the stadium, lose your clothes and drink up. Don't want to? Everyone does it, the band director is there, so if you want to be a part of the band, you better be there and better participate. Oh, and we're gonna call you "Captain Dildo" for the rest of the year.
There's a big difference between doing this stuff consensually with friends on your own time and being forced or coerced into doing it as part of the band.
I see I've found a member of the lunatic fringe. These "traditions" have likely been going on for decades. In all that time, 1 parent called in to complain.
That's the problem with society today. You offend 1 person in 1000 and you have a problem.
If you'd be cool with that happening to your kid then it's pretty safe to say you're a shitty parent.
defending OSU. Hi Urban. TrueBlue my ass.
Whatever. Not surprising most people here can't look at this objectively. Take away "Ohio State" from the headline and would you even care? Would there be the same moral outrage some of you are professing if it were New Mexico State?
You seem to have this problem where you project your own shortcomings onto others. Sorry, you might not actually care about other human beings, but most of us do.
Re read what allegedly occurred. It's disgusting. I don't know if I'm more disturbed by the OSU band, or the fact that there are some people who think it's fine???
Log out, go outside. You're done for the day.
Yes. I would be outraged if it happened at NMSU. Are you insane? How is it perfectly acceptable for band memebers to force a sister and brother to do sexual things? What world do you live in?
He'll yes I would be outraged. I would be even more outraged if it was Michigan!
Is it really that insane to imagine an inclusive environment for 18 year-olds? None of this stuff should be tolerated
And it wasn't. The guy was fired.
Yet the way you're talking makes it seem you WOULD have tolerated it. And by the way it doesn't matter if it's OSU or someone else. Making people do things like this against their will is fucked up.
This seems like stuff guys would do at a frat hazing. But if its guys who are 20 doing this to guys who are 18 it is one thing. When it is a person in authority doing it it crosses a line. When it is between opposite sexes it crosses the line. When it is btw people of the same family it just gets sick. Etc.
So I think maybe you are talking of the actions which some people "outside the fringe" get as hazing but you are not getting the context. Imagine if your prof did this in class. That's the equivalent of a band director doing it.
It's impolite and lowers the level of discourse.
But you're an idiot.
If your son / daughter comes to you and says that, as an incoming member of the bad, you have been given a nickname which is likely sexually suggestive, perhaps even offensive (REF: the report linked in the article) and that, at the discretion of the upperclassmen, you are asked to perform "tricks" which relate to this nickname (in one case, a girl was asked to act as if she was having an orgasm thanks to a vibrator, per the report), you wouldn't raise an eyebrow and see that something was done about this right then and there?
It doesn't matter if it that parent is the first to formally complain (I somehow doubt it for some reason), I can't fathom just telling one's kid something which amounts to, "Well, you know how it is in Marching Band..." That it happened at all is unacceptable really, but that the culture was encouraged by someone supposedly in charge is appalling to me. Sorry, the argument from tradition is a fallacious argument.
Who knows how many parents complained in the past, or how many kids quit, and nobody ever heard about it. Maybe Waters is a scapegoat with the new president trying to make his mark, but at the end of the day, it was the right thing to do.
Of course, I'm also of a firm belief that the kids involved should also be punished for violating the student code of conduct.
Prohibited conduct includes:
- Endangering Health or Safety
- Sexual Misconduct
and more, probably
Your definition of fringe seems to be "everyone who isn't me," which is not what the dictionary says.
Do you they really need their parents to complain to get the rules against sexual harrassment enforced?
Uhh, I think you might be the lunatic fringe that finds it acceptable to be a complete asshole and sexually harass others under the name of 'tradition'.
-34 points in one week on the site, and you found the lunatic fringe? Me thinks you may have things reversed.
Or there is something seriously wrong with you.
As a student my first reaction was just that I don't care about the band, but upon further reflection it's easy to see how this issue could've been swept away and dealt with quietly to protect the name of the university. I have a lot of respect for President Drake in bringing this to light, and terminating those involved, something President Gee wouldn't have done under the same circumstances.
is to penalize the students who perpetrated these activities.
Agreed but with Waters out, it won't be easy to get all the details now. They may have done all they can do with reasonable accuracy.
Funny how 90 percent of the comments below that Dispatch article ripped on the paper for sensationalizing tame behavior.
There are some real die-hards commenting on the article that this is completely normal and acceptable behavior, and that anyone who does not like it should just say no or quit the band. That many of the commenters supporting this behavior are alums of "TBDBITL" (abbreviation for "the best damn band in the land") is also quite telling.
The fact that the fired band director is also an osu marching band alum is telling. Perhaps he, too, was jaded or accepting of the fact that this sort of behavior goes on. Either way, 2 years should have been PLENTY of time to change the culture, if he really wanted to.
what you are referring to is called a "lack of instituational control".
Sounds like the OSU band has been this way for a long long time, and the behavior was pretty much accepted and/or approved by the staff of the band.
Ohio State doesn't even do acronyms right.
The best damn sexualized culture in the land
It's always been an open secret the OSU band hazes like crazy. Especially towards the women. I wonder what took the administration so long to pull the trigger...
or perhaps that he wears blue jeans occasionally. That would indicate he was really out of control and needed to go.
The comment section on the Columbus Dispatch is hilarious. People actually think this behavior is perfectly fine. Oh OSU, what a great school!!!
Practiced in the spring at safety...wonder if he's really moved.
Mattison likes big CBs at Nickel...which is why Dymonte was there and why Avery moved even though it was his best position.
Peppers is a Mattison dream at Nickel.
Interesting take on the subject matter! (I kid)
OSU has an official office of compliance and integrity? That's the most shocking thing mentioned in that link.
The office is empty.
...and no one foresaw a "sexualized environment?"
After looking at Exhibit B, I do have to admit that the OSU band has a real knack for catchy song titles. Who could argue with such classics as:
"The Hitler Song"
"All my semen"
"Balls to your partner"
"Bring back my boner"
"Carwile sucks raw dick"
"He's a sweet gay fag"
or my personal favorite
"Puff the magic tampon"
that there weren't more dirty songs insulting Michigan. What kind of Buckeyes are these people, anyway?
Fake ass buckeye's?
Other schools but we definitely have a few professors that are ... eccentric.
/edit: last time I try posting on this device. I got a double post and my reply, which was supposed be to the guy talking about Michigan profs, is buried way down here.
Also, context clarification I'm not implying I witnessed stuff similar to the article at Michigan.
They win football games, but man what a hellhole...
I think that kind of debauchery is great if it is all consenting adults. It's a lot like some "krewes" in NOLA do at their parties.
However, when people are forced to do this without their consent, it is not only sexual harassment, but a few of these things would be considered sexual assault in many states. It's clear that the students had two choices: participate or don't be in the band. It was Waters' responsibility to protect his students and he failed miserably.
I may never say this again, but congratulations to the OSU administration for doing the right thing.
Those fuckin band nerds are a bunch of horn dogs....they never got any in high school so they take out all their pent up frustration in college. Lol
Maybe band camp really IS all about sex
This whole affair is deplorable. Even the normally somewhat reasonable folks at elevenwarriors are actually condoning the actions of Jon Waters.
Read through these comments and prepare to be disgusted even more
Also in that comments thread: Section 1 doing Section 1 things
Worst state ever.
Vulgarity 10, Cleverness 0. It would be nice if we could get back to being as smug about our school's relative football prowess as we are about basic decency.
Is everyone in Columbus under the age of 14?
It goes back a long time, but when I was in the MMB, we had pretty awful versions of all the Big Ten fight songs. And Notre Dame.
To me the distinction is in choice. When you make this sort of thing obligatory to all members of the band, then you have a problem. Outside of the formal organization, 18-22 year olds are going to do raunchy childish stuff. It is part of being 18-22.
I think what's most unbelievable to me was the fact that Waters claimed he really didn't know drinking was a problem in his band.
During that stretch in the 2000s where it seemed OSU was going to Arizona for one bowl or another for what seemed like an eternity, the OSUMB routinely rented out a specific hotel that members came to give some resort-like name (which escapes me now), which they particularly adored purely for the fact it had a liquor store open directly across the street. Those kids went hard the entire time. Every time they found out they'd be going back to Arizona, even if it was a shitty bowl game, they knew to look forward to it.
Waters claiming ignorance is classic. There's just no way.
EDIT: This is not to say I'm anti-drinking, but when it exists in excess and contributes to an environment where harrassment and hazing occur on a regular basis, you have a problem on your hands.
There's a fine line between assault and harassment and if you ask me, a few of these definitely crossed the line. If I were to pull crap like this in the Air Force I'd be on the way to court and probably jail time for sexual assault. I hope OSU wakes up to the culture they're promoting on a daily basis down there. It truly disgusts me.
That they didn't join the marching band to "play school" anyway.
Or did I get that wrong?
So the band was dotting more than the I in Ohio?????
So, this gives a whole new meaning to "dotting the eye"... skeet skeet bitches
Dot the brown eye should replace dot the eye - the band tuba thing they do.
The sucks always cheat, lie, steal, and even the band is out of control
I can't wait to see how the trash on 11W try to justify this one......
It's falling mostly on the side of "Drake did the right thing."
Except for Section 1 (cleverly disguised in plain sight as "M Man") going on a rant about Title IX, the PC Police and rabble, rabble, rabble...
It's not much of a disguise, to be honest.
...between the unctuous fawning over OSU, pedantic references to his own previous screeds and the preening insistence that he was right all along, how can you be sure M Man and Section 1 are the same person?
250 comments in and no one's blamed Fickell yet?
Anyone want to bet on when Waters returns to the Shoe for a standing ovation?
I had a female friend who was on OSU's band for all 4 years of college. She's not denying that things like this happened, but she also said she was never forced to participate. The older band members always re-assured her that if anything made her feel uncomfortable at any point she could stop and they wouldn't think any less of her.
...with the understanding you pretty much had to do it to belong. Hazing 101.
Next up, student led fundraising to build a statue of him outside the shoe!