OT: Broadway actor Nick Cordero dead at 41 from COVID
Link: https://people.com/theater/nick-cordero-dead-coronavirus-complications/?amp=true
For those who don't recall, this guy got the virus early on in the US outbreak and later had his leg amputated due to complications. Perfectly health person with no known prior health issues - leaves behind wife and 1yr old son.
Just a reminder that while the stats may say that younger people probably won't have any serious problems from this, it still can happen.
Be smart and stay safe out there.
I saw pictures of 4th of July gatherers. Although the groups were not as big as the ones protesting it’s pretty clear things are not going to get better. If our biggest weapon is social distancing then forget it.
Our biggest weapon is herd immunity, just like the last virus.
If you are over 65 or with health conditions, you will just have to remain isolated for a while longer until a vaccine is distributed. I see so many seniors at the store with no masks on and they don't even wiped own their shopping carts.
Sounds like my inlaws. They think that fish tank cleaner and some zinc will save them when they inevitably catch it.
Whatever it is it LIKELY will save them considering a very high percentage of even the elderly don't die despite the doomsday talk.
But we are at the point that multiple states are having to ration healthcare to keep hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.
Name fits
You are painting with too broad a brush.
If you have comorbidities at any age, your risk of a serious outcome is much higher. Venous issues are showing up in young people where clots form, as they did with the guy noted in the OP. Lung damage may not be reversible. With the cohort of age shifting to young people, they are making up a more significant percentage of hospitalizations. While mortality is going down due to the age of those being infected and better treatments, spending a week or two in the hospital with potential life changing pathology would not be my choice of how I'd remember the summer of '20.
Can we all just agree that the summer of 2020 sucks a huge, dirty, smelly, unwashed ass all across the spectrum? Whether you spend it in the hospital, or otherwise, determines the amount of sweat that large ass contains.
If you are over 65 or with health conditions, you will just have to remain isolated for a while longer until a vaccine is distributed. I see so many seniors at the store with no masks on and they don't even wipe down their shopping carts.
For the 80 billionth time: masks do not protect the mask-wearer, they protect others by catching the larger droplets ejected by the wearer when speaking, coughing or sneezing.
But how do you know who has it who don't? Which is exactly why EVERYONE has to wear masks for this to work.
I agree 100% with you. But the way he worded that post made it sound like the high-risk people needed to mask up to protect themselves. Masks really don't protect you so much as they protect others... which is why the refusal to wear a mask is about the most selfish act a person can take since they are benefiting from the masks of others while perhaps endangering those same people.
I am guessing the most selfish act is abortion then? You are guaranteed to take the life of the one person who is completely counting on you.
Yeah... I probably shouldn't have said "most selfish" since there are lots of examples of things much higher on that list.
We have never, not even once, obtained herd immunity from a disease without a vaccine. That is literally why we developed them.
Why don't people understand that?
Considering the lack of any thing approaching critical thinking skills among the no-mask crowd, this does not surprise me in the slightest.
I don't think I've ever thumbed up a Hatter comment before. Mostly because I think he's, well, mad as a hatter.
Commenting because I'd like to think that antagonism isn't a prerequisite of political discussion and it's important to remember both sides do have good points, so listen (with your eyes if its in print).
To answer your question, it's because a simple answer got presented that "felt" good, and so people grabbed and clung to it. It's not unlike many of the most repeated political argument points. Good job debunking it.
(note- I'm well aware of the contradiction between calling him, "mad as a hatter" and talking about the lack of antagonism. It's a deliberate choice, with ironic humor as its intent, nothing more nothing less).
Not to mention that so far, all signs point to herd immunity not being a thing with this virus. A study out of Italy is showing only around 5% to have anitbodies.
edit: Spain, not Italy.
Have you ever heard of the Spanish flu?
Fuck you and your “herd immunity” bullshit.
Hell fucking no. If we are relying on herd immunity we have abjectly failed as a society. Look at other countries. The EU (which is larger in population than the US 500 million vs 300), has far fewer cases than us now and fewer deaths. They've highly limited the spread of the virus through strict quarantines during outbreaks, massive testing efforts, had universal mask protocols, and contact tracing. So they worked hard, quarantined well, and you know what: it worked. The EU is reopening. Germany finished their stay at home order months ago. They have sports again, we probably wont.
Canada is reopening widely as well.
They'll control the virus through these measures over the next year or so, and then when a vaccine comes, they'll have immunity.
Us on the other hand are just playing behind the eight ball the whole time. we refuse to test significantly, barely contact trace, and have no strict quarantine measures and masking protocols for outbreak zones. And for that, instead of coasting with a relatively low number of cases like the EU, we're going to let hundreds of thousands of americans die because we're too damn proud to wear masks.
It's insane.
And then all I hear is "it only affects the elderly". 1. I dont know about you, but i dont want my grandparents or my parents to die if they don't have to. 2. Younger people are affected. I've seen young people in the ICU for this. It's serious. This is a magnitude worse than the flu and it spreads way quicker.
I'm a physician, and I'm dreading the next wave, because the first time people kinda cared (still a generally meh quarantine effort, but it was an effort). Now people dont seem to care at all. And people are going to die from it. Hospitals are filling up in hotspots across the country (TMC in houston is full to bursting right now, and that's the worlds largest hospital complex), and I know it'll just be a matter of time before it happens to me at my hospital.
And people are going to die.
Not just old people from Covid.
Young people. Middle Aged people. People who aren't COVID patients, but rather just casualties of the fact that our medical system will be overrun by this preventable plague. We can only do so much. If I can't focus the effort I need on a 20-year-old who has a traumatic brain injury because the ICU is filled with 50 people with COVID draining our resources, then I'm going to be livid. And that kid will still be dead. And that has happened in places. And will happen. And there will be nothing I can do about it. Because people want herd immunity as an easy out rather than being the tough Americans we tout ourselves to be, and making sacrifices to save lives of our fellow countrymen.
I'm sick of pulling 80 hour week, trying to do everything I can to help people and save lives, while so many assholes act like I've put upon them the wrath of god because I ask them to wear a mask in the damn hospital. Like they have a god-given right to spread their germs to me and my patients. It's a little thing. I wear a mask 14 hours a day every day now (sometimes having to double up, with a surgical mask over my N95 because I only get one every few days). You can wear one for a half-hour in the grocery store, you're not gonna desat and die. You'll be fine. It's annoying, but really surgical masks are easy to breath through, its just uncomfortable because people aren't used to them.
So don't give me this "herd immunity" bullshit. Because it'll lead to deaths. Deaths of many many people who did not need to die.
Fuck off
oh my god
nah i'm good
Good reply!
- Mild apology for my response. I expect you’ve got big enough shoulders to handle a ‘fuck off’ here and there in life.
I initially wrote a long reply and edited it, deleted, then added... it was getting late. I was tired. Deleted all I wrote and boiled it down to ‘fuck off’. A simple way, and lazy way, for me to disagree with your post.
So anyway, Go Blue!
Fuck off.
But... But... Own the libs!!!!
Jeezus, dude, you are a fucking tool.
THANK YOU for articulating this all so clearly! I've been trying to express the same thing to people but haven't been able to convey it this spot on. THANK YOU @a2electric
We should have all the advantages over any country considering our health systems, scientists, money etc but the biggest difference is lack of leadership and centralized response.
If we learn anything from this it has to be that our response to a pandemic has to be at the national level and not state level. We need better leadership - look at the two countries that are struggling the most US and Brazil. Finally, everybody has to be on board otherwise we all suffer the fools.
Nothing makes you go out - NOTHING. Nothing says you can't order grocery delivery and stay quarantined. What happens to others does not directly impact you. You can argue your job your yada - during the quarantine, you locked yourself down. Keep doing so if that's what it requires for you to feel safe.
It is not your call to tell other people what an acceptable level of risk entails.
It is not the federal government's place to tell people what their level entails. They can recommend, but what is necessary for NYC is NOT the same level as <random county in Wyoming>. It is the height of arrogant stupidity to suggest otherwise. It is barely the state government's place, and even there, more ideas are always - ALWAYS - better than less.
If we learn anything from this it's that IT'S NOT ABOUT ABROGATING OUR FREEDOMS. Our freedom is our responsibility. If your neighbors are not being adults, that's their problem, you react to the situation at hand, and keep yourself and your family as safe as you can. You should not, can not, and will never successfully control people's lives.
Lack of leadership my ass. Be your own leader. Do what you need to do to keep yourself safe and stop thinking Pres. Obama or Pres. Trump or president anybody has the time to invest in your personal private tissue-wiping needs.
A Pandemic doesn't care about your freedoms. This view is why we are going to suffer from this for much longer than other nations.
no it doesn't, but leadership does not mean control. LEAD. Do things right, if given the opportunity explain how to do things right to others.
A mommy state where we all just sit and wait for Gov. Whitmer to cut the crusts off our cheese sandwich is far worse than just listening, learning, doing things better for ourselves.
I'm no more a fan of idiots at Meijer walking around without a mask as anyone, but if I don't like it, I have three choices - 1. ask Meijer to ask these people to leave - it's THEIR store, not mine, and thus their decision. 2. Shop elsewhere (usually my choice). 3. Let it get under my skin. Option one is of dubious value, option 3 helps no one and hurts me. Yes, I'm aware there's an option 4, confront, but A) it's not my store, it's Meijer's, and B) I'm not their parent/spouse/keeper.
It is not your place to tell others how to live, it is your place to do your best to live up to your own standards, to teach your family how to set high standards for themselves, and then - when asked, explain to others how to do so as well. Here's the flat truth, not you, nor me, nor Gov. Whitmer, nor Pres. Trump have everything figured out. When you let 1 person decide everything for you, they WILL screw up sometimes. So more ideas is a good thing. Watch, listen, learn, do better. Get more ideas.
Should we get rid of rules telling people they can’t drive on sidewalks or that they have to drive on the right side of the road? We use rules to set societal norms do that society (including the economy) can function. It is perfectly reasonable to debate whether those rules go to far or not far enough, but to suggest that we could get rid of all rules and just have people make the decisions that they need to be safe would mean we wouldn’t have a functioning society.
the primary concern, and we keep seeing this over and over again is that if we all don’t take some basic precautions, our health system will be over run. In your Meijers example, Meijers is in fact required to follow many rules to be allowed to operate including rules related to fire safety and hygiene. As a society we’ve said that government is going to put in place and enforce those standards so that people can have some level of certainty that when they shop at a grocery store they have some level of safety. Why wouldn’t we treat covid the same way?
On the record, I'm a LONG way from an anarchist. Society needs rules and norms. But, to reply directly to your question -
Specifically because there are very few things that are always right answers with regard to Covid best practices. Keeping a grocery clean is a pretty clear, simple equation. But mask rules? not so much. If I'm walking my dog alone on a street, no one within 100ft of me, do I need a mask? Science says no. If I stop to talk to my neighbor, even if we're keeping 8-10ft back, do we need masks, no, but probably should anyway. If I'm sitting in my back yard reading, 50ft from anyone, do I need a mask? I shouldn't. If I'm sitting on my apartment balcony 3 feet from the next balcony? "Need" depends on if someone's on the other balcony, but I should anyway. See - the trouble is there's too much subjective. A grocery can be objectively clean or not clean. The rules on Covid are less so.
This gets more problematic the larger the scale gets. I'd be 100% ok if my city were to make a law saying wear a mask in every public building. I'd be a lot less ok if the federal government says the same thing. Not because the rule would be different, but because there's differences of scale. Highly urban areas with dense populations need different rules than highly rural areas. Is a milk barn a "public" space? Sortof but if one is the only person working? guh. NYC will need mask rules longer than Montpelier, VT, due to density of population. For that matter, Manhattan needs stricter rules than Brooklyn, but that's not for me to decide.
Or, tl;dr - I'm fine with some regulations/laws, I don't think they need to be set on the national or even state level, and it's far more important that people focus on doing the right thing because it's the right thing, and not wait for the government to tell us what's right. Also, rules have a bad habit of going too far, so let's not rush in. Now, it's also important that I set my own level of ok with others. If people are wandering around Meijer with no mask, it's not for me to freak out at Meijer, I'm responsible for my own feelings. If I'm uncomfortable, then _I_ need to find a different grocery, or order online, or whathaveyou so that I can feel safe. If we all bend over for the most paranoid, then we can't function. We HAVE to draw certain lines. We let people drive cars despite it killing 30k people a year. There is a line where protection from Covid goes too far.
'Leadership' doesn't mean one size fits all, and it never has meant that. But it's pretty clear the subtleties of that are lost on you...
You're asking for the President to tell us all what to do. Do you really think one entity has the time to make decisions for each individual county?
If you're a parent - or hell, if you're in a relationship - you make dinner. And you probably make the same thing for both of you, regardless if it's exactly what the other person wants. Because making two entirely separate meals is a terrible use of time and resources. Do you think the same doesn't apply when you let government bodies decide for large geographic regions? Gov. Whitmer's lockdown rules applied for downtown Detroit (~ 600k people) and <little town in the UP> (~ 60 people). Are the same rules necessary with half a mile between residences vs. an apartment complex?
I literally just said "leadership does not mean one size fits all" and "subtleties are lost on you". Yet somehow, you just repeated the same thing that prompted my remark! My points stand, validated by demonstration...
Leadership as you would have it DOES mean one size fits all, as demonstrated by Gov. Whitmer's orders being identical across the state.
Was my rather obvious and deliberate example a little too much subtlety for you?
You were talking about the 'President', which typically means POTUS. That's what my reply was/is about. Don't switch to a Governor, which is decidedly not POTUS. I don't live in MI, I live in VA - where we also have a Dem Gov, though he's handled things a little differently than Whitmer apparently has. You should stop mixing responses on different posts to mean different things...
Take the example - if Pres. Obama was still in office, he may have done similar to Gov. Whitmer and shut things down, a one-sized-fits-all solution. What was Obamacare if not a (few) sizes fits all answer to healthcare?
My reply was in response to a comment complaining about a lack of leadership with a pointed implication towards Pres. Trump. So the point of my reply was to suggest that leadership is an individual experience, NOT a waiting for the the government - any government, be it federal, state, or even neighborhood HOA to tell us what to do if it's the right thing. And no, I'm not interested in defining the exact right thing for anyone, because I agree with you entirely - there are no one-size-fits-all answers.
WE, we are citizens, which one would hope means that we're supposed to be adults capable of the same level of mental responsibility as we ask of our leaders, who are, after all, simply citizens we put in charge temporarily. We are capable of our own subtleties to figure out that wearing a mask in Meijer is for the greater good, but wearing a mask in my gated back yard when I'm alone while reading a book in a chair literally no one else sits in, maybe not so critical. We shouldn't be waiting for mommy to come tell us what to do. If the president, in the form of White House advisors wants to share ideas, tell us best practices, and demonstrate them --- great. If the president wants to tell people to grow the fuck up and do what they think best, and puts its own focus on big picture items, and not hold our hands and give us participation trophies for wearing our masks while walking our dogs, I can live with that. It's MY job to figure out that washing my hands is a good idea, and if I don't, it's equally my job to live (or not) with the consequences.
AMERICA!
It doesn’t take away from your many good points, but I caution against using the EU as an example. It is a collection of countries...meaning they each can easily disallow entry from neighboring citizens. In general, that is not something the US can easily do. While technically, yes, states can restrict travel into the state, it’s not easily done on a logistical level at the very least.
Additionally, the method for counting cases varies wildly within our own country, not to mention how the EU might be doing so with many different countries reporting. There’s no standardized method for counting cases. Some have been shown they count people who died WITH Covid as those who died FROM Covid. Others do the opposite where very few are counted because they had underlying conditions and put it down as dying from that condition.
All I’m saying is that, amongst your other great points, using the EU as a comparison is not as helpful as you might think. In fact, I would go so far to say that, due to such wide variability, there is no comparing one country to the next.
Completely agree. It isn't a great one-to-one comparison. I choose it because the EU and US are closer to scale than the US and the individual European countries.
But I will say, the differences in how covid is tabulated between countries is not too different between how its dealt with in states. States like NYC and NJ have been more aggresive with labelling their deaths as from COVID. On the opposite hand, states like Texas report low deaths from COVID, but have showed a larger spikes in pnuemonia (which is a sequela/superinfection from COVID19). So while there may be more homogeneity in the US, there is varience in how states treat data relating to COVID.
You know how the 40s had America's greatest generation? This one is the stupidest.
AMEN to you and everything you had to say in your post.
If I could someday buy you a beer or two (or drink of you choice) I would feel truly honored.
I just wish a good percentage of the remaining mask-naysayers on this board and everywhere would open up their resistant minds and hearts to rethinking their stubbornness against masks. Think of all the lives they'd be involved in saving!
A thousand times THANK YOU to you for what you do, a2⚡!
We aren't even remotely close to herd immunity and 130,000 people are dead. Anyone who utters "herd immunity" as a solution has not seriously considered what that means. You get herd immunity from vaccines. When you get herd immunity without vaccines it means way too many people died.
herd immunity only happens when the herd is.... you know.. immune. A friend of mine (front line health worker) is part of a study that is looking at Covid positive patients, and tracking their active virus readings and then their antibody readings after. Long story short, 3 months in and she is now antibody negative. They are seeing this a lot and it is very scary. What would it look like for her to get it again? how bad are the symptoms second time around? Will a vaccine work? for how long? Relying on herd immunity at this point and not common sense (from everyone) to get us through this is the definition of stupidity.
"Antibody negative" is one of the things that I find most interesting. Serology testing typically only looks for IgG+ and IgM+ antibodies that are SARS-Cov-2 specific. However, the "mugshot" (I love Sopwith's term) taken by the immune system typically involves memory T- and/or B-cells. It's there that longer-term immune response may be preserved. Can/will someone get sick again? The jury is still out, but if the T-/B-cells do their jobs, maybe not nearly so severely as the first time someone gets infected. That's ultimately where vaccines and herd immunity may do the most good for all of us.
Lol, you're not a grumpy old man are you? That sounds great in a grumpy old man voice