OT: 2017 outlook for U Arizona and RichRod
It's off-topic season, and this piece from the "Arizona Desert Swarm" blog (their Maize 'n Brew) might be of interest to some here. It's a preview of the 2017 football season for U Arizona and (of course) RichRod.
http://www.azdesertswarm.com/2017/5/5/15559524/arizona-wildcats-2017-pr…
It sounds like he's a goner. I didn't find anything in the piece unfair even though Arizona is a more challenging job than most. It's been interesting to see what he's done with a largely clean slate there.
Hasn't this been put to rest? Bacon's book told how Carr was the first phone call to Rodriguez. He was behind the guy.
I love how people think Carr screwed over Rodriguez with the roster but then conveniently forget that the roster was two years removed from the 2006 season and upsetting Tebow in the bowl game. Rodriguez took pieces of those teams and shit the bed with a 3-9 season.
Yes, some former Carr players and longtime alumni did not throw their weight behind Rodriguez. But many did. The only guy who really sabotaged Rich Rodriguez was Rich Rodriguez. He deliberately tore everything down and tried to rebuild Michigan from the ground up.
You can scream "No he didn't!!" all you want but Rodriguez has admitted as much. He didn't want to run anything other than his system here. So everything that was not a part of his philosophy had to go.
If you HAD to pick either Hoke or Rich to be our HC who would you choose? Yes I know - terrible options but still....who?
Hoke.
Is this even a question? Even with as bad as things got under Hoke, it still never got as bad as it did under Rodriguez. Hoke was as stubborn as Rodriguez and just as incompetent but in completely different ways.
The only reason why anyone would really pick Rodriguez now is simply because they are partial to the spread, which I am not.
We have no idea how Hoke would have done had he replaced Carr in 2008. I have a feeling we wouldn't have seen the program fall off the cliff, and we may have been very good. Would we become an ass-kicking team that our rivals fear? Probably not, but we wouldn't be the absolute laughingstock that we became with Rodriguez at our helm.
Hoke could also recruit circles around Rodriguez. He definitely missed on a few pieces and recruited some busts (Morris, Green, Kalis), but overall the program got much better in recruiting and set up Harbaugh very well for the future. (I don't think Rodriguez would have gotten Jourdan Lewis or Peppers.)
And before anyone says that Rodriguez would have been lights-out if Casteel had simply come with him, consider this: he had Casteel at Arizona, and fired him.
In a sense, Hoke was the ideal bad coach - not only did he recruit well, but he tanked quickly, and completely - everyone knew he needed to go by the end of 2014. There was no argument about it.
The worst is when you get stuck in that gray area where the coach wins just enough to get an annual vote of confidence but the program never gets anywhere. We may have been headed in that direction with RichRod if he'd lasted beyond 2010.
Hoke was like missing the playoffs and getting a lottery pick while Richrod was like sneaking into the first round and getting blown out.
The thing is, that 2011 team was mostly RR guys, and the offense was absolutely moving toward elite status (they were top-20 the last 2 years, and that was with a lot of underclassmen). The defense was still a tire fire, but maybe RR hires a different DC (Robinson was sort of forced on him by Brandon) and you see enough improvement there that he gets them to 8-9 wins and the program chugs along. I know in hindsight it all worked out because Harbaugh came back, but it was definitely not a given even when Hoke was let go (especially had Brandon still been in charge), and at that point you're, what, picking between Jim Mora Jr. and Steve Addazio? That's not a good place to be.
But yes, it is great how it worked out with Hoke being a good recruiter and getting booted in time for an amazing replacement.
That's the thing. RichRod can probably do a little better in 2011 than he did 2010, and that might get him a fifth year. But he's unlikely to ever win big. Keeping him around probably means being stuck in Amakeresque purgatory. Eventually he'll get fired but it could be strung out for awhile.
You do realize that Rich can be a horrible coach who would've failed on his own AND also be sabotaged by the outgoing coach too? That those two things are not necessarily connected?
I honestly don't know which one I'd choose to be honest. Remember that the good work Hoke did recruiting was heading downward fast once it was apparent to the world the man had no idea how to coach. And that Rich's 2010 class was at one point in the top 5 in the nation (where have you gone Dee Hart) before it was clear he was getting fired at year's end and they all starting decomitting. Ric had an upward trajectory (started from horrible and worked up to mediocre) and Hoke had a downward trajectory (started at excellent and worked down to below average).
Look - I'm not "screaming" anything. I'm freely admiting that my position on Rich and his tenure was largely wrong. i'm just not sure that Hoke was an improvement.
Hoke was an objective improvement in all fronts except in thinking that it would be a good idea to put Denard under center -- frankly would have been better if Denard had been a full-time running back -- and bungling his way through a press conference sparked by Morris's concussion on the field.
Rodriguez had his share of embarrassing press conferences so frankly I don't hold it against Hoke too much. However, I won't argue against it if anyone wants to say that Hoke was an idiot for not dragging Morris off the field when Morris was telling everyone he wanted to stay in.
The bad of Hoke's tenure is far outweighed by the good. He beat Ohio State and won a BCS bowl. He beat Michigan State. He brought in outstanding recruiting classes. He set up the next guy very well to the point where the biggest deficiency Harbaugh encountered was quarterback, and Harbaugh fixed that pretty quickly.
Meanwhile, the good of Rodriguez's tenure does not ouweigh the bad. Yes, he brought us Denard, who we all love. He also brought us Greg Robinson. He never beat, let alone was competitive against, Ohio State and Michigan State, and he gave the Spartans the idea that they could overtake us as a program. He turned Michigan into a national embarrassment long before Hoke even had the chance.
Hoke's embarrassment of Michigan is still nothing compared to Rodriguez's.
P.S. re: screaming, I meant "you" in the general "you." One can scream all they want...
Hoke beat the worst OSU team in decades, and beat a bad MSU team on a last second FG. He also gave us 27 for 27, not crossing midfield against OSU in 2012, -48 rushing yards against MSU, had Nussmeier pumping his fists when we finally scored a TD for the first time in like 3 years against MSU in a 35-11 beatdown. Hoke was embarrassing.
At least he beat them.
I don't care if they were the greatest OSU and MSU teams or the worst, I'll take any wins over those teams.
Rodriguez never even came close.
He set up the next guy very well to the point where the biggest deficiency Harbaugh encountered was quarterback, and Harbaugh fixed that pretty quickly.
No, the greatest deficiency was the offensive line, a spot that submarined the last 2 years at Michigan and probably cost them a playoff spot. I'd also argue the running backs were underwhelming, considering no RB recruited by Hoke ever broke 1,000 yards.
And sure, Hoke beat the worst OSU team in decades and the one "down" MSU team in their recent run until 2016, but both RR and Hoke lost, on average, to MSU by the same margin (12 points). He was more competitive with OSU but that never felt overly sustainable; and not that it means a lot, but RR had to go to OSU 2 of his 3 years, while Hoke got OSU at home to start his run. If you want to hang your hat on Hoke losing less convincingly to OSU than RR with the latter having demonstrably less talent, then that's fine but it's not a metric I care all that much about.
I think both coaches were bad fits for the job, and I can totally accept that people dislike RR and think he did damage to Michigan. But I categorically disagree with the notion that you can look at Hoke and view him as anything other than the worst tendencies of Michigan under Dave Brandon.
No, the greatest deficiency was the offensive line, a spot that submarined the last 2 years at Michigan and probably cost them a playoff spot.
"probably cost them a playoff spot"
At least we're back to our Michigan expectations, am I right? With Rodriguez we were just hoping to make a bowl game.
Michigan was cost a playoff spot because of a bad spot in Columbus. End of story. This porously recruited OL you're describing just produced back-to-back 10 win seasons.
Yes, we did not have an ass-kicking Alabama offensive line. It was bad, and obviously became the biggest weakness of the team, and continues to be the biggest question mark.
But it was not because of Hoke's recruiting. It was because of the lack of development.
But I categorically disagree with the notion that you can look at Hoke and view him as anything other than the worst tendencies of Michigan under Dave Brandon.
Oh, he definitely was. No argument on that.
But if we're saying who we'd take now if our only two choices are Rodriguez and Hoke, there is absolutely no way I'll take Rodriguez. Hoke was bad, yes. But Rodriguez was so much worse.
Give me Hoke and his top ten recruiting classes and hopefully a better OL coach than Darrell Funk and we'll see how it goes.
Brady Hoke went from pretty good to having to apologize for his LB putting a camping stake in the ground at MSU immediately preceeding an ass-kicking. And he somehow found a way to give up 400 passing yards to Rutgers (in a loss), lose 31-0 to Notre Dame, and lose to Maryland. I'd sure as shit rather have a guy go from not a bowl game to a bowl game than go from 11 wins to 5 as more and more of his guys get brought into the system.
There's a reason RR is still a head coach while Hoke is now back to being a position coach
And what reason is that?
Arizona has categorically lower expectations than Oregon? Hoke had never been a DC? He was foolish to ask for assistant salaries when East Carolina offered him the head coaching job?
Put Rodriguez at any school with high expectations and he is fired in 3 years.
Hoke may be a head coach again, but it will likely be at the MAC level. His situation versus Rodriguez's is not apples to apples. People thought Rodriguez would never coach again when he was spending that year at CBS sports.
The reason being that Rich Rod is a better head coach than Hoke
Rodriguez at Michigan: 15-22 (6-18 in conference)
Hoke at Michigan: 31-20 (18-14 in conference)
Rich Rod won six Big Ten games. He is so clearly better.
Yes, that's why Rich Rod is still a head coach while Hoke is now coaching D-Line. If you wanna look at records at Michigan, Hoke was 19-7 after his first 2 seasons, Harbaugh is 20-6. Is Hoke almost equal to Harbaugh?
You said Rodriguez is a better head coach than Hoke.
He was such a better head coach in fact, would you care to mind me how RR did on offense, defense, and special teams? Because if I'm not mistaken, the head coach is responsible for all three.
I'm just pointing out the massive flaw in using records over 3-4 years as a way of saying which coach is better. Both Rich Rod's teams and Hoke's teams were only good at one thing (offense vs defense), however given Hoke's disastrous tenure as Oregon DC it seems that the defensive success of Hoke's teams was all Mattison.
Do you realize how royally you have to fuck up to not get a single head coaching position after being the head coach at Michigan? Like, even if you manage to screw it up, other schools will say "well at least he was good enough to get the job at Michigan, maybe we should look at him". But not for Hoke, he fucked up so bad that he went from head coach at Michigan to position coach in the span of 2 years. He is objectively a worse head coach than Rich Rodriguez.
Rodriguez is the first Michigan coach in 50 years to get a college head coaching gig after Ann Arbor. Most coaches do not coach again after Michigan.
But not for Hoke, he fucked up so bad that he went from head coach at Michigan to position coach in the span of 2 years.
This is like Nebraska fans who say Bo Pelini is a bad coach because he hasn't immediately jumped at an offer from a weak Power 5 school and has stayed at Division II.
Circumstances are different for every coach. Rodriguez spent a year at CBS and most fan bases were calling him "toxic" because of the poor run at Michigan. Greg Byrne decided to give him a second chance.
Hoke had an opportunity to be the head coach at East Carolina but wanted salaries for his assistants. The admin there went with the cheaper option.
I have no idea if Hoke will ever be a head coach again. But that doesn't change that at Michigan, he was far better than Rodriguez.
If you want to point to Rodriguez's overall record as a head coach as evidence that he is better than Hoke, he padded that record with wins in Division II and a weak Big East - as many have already showed in this thread.
As I keep saying, put Rodriguez anywhere with expectations and he fails miserably.
And Hoke was dominating power 5 conferences? He did the same thing in the MAC and Mountain West but to a much lesser degree than Rich Rod did at West Virginia. Also your first point is awfully weak, considering Bo and Lloyd make up the majority of those 50 years and both were at Michigan until they retired, and who knows what would have happened with Moeller had he not had to resign.
I feel like we're arguing in circles.
Both were terrible here. I think Rich Rod was worse, you think Hoke was worse. Let's just agree to disagree.
RR has a career coaching record of 156-113-2, and a bowl record of 5-5. Brady Hoke has a career record of 78-70 (and it was under .500 before he was at Michigan), and 2-3 in bowl games. When RR was fired, he got a job coaching at another P-5 program where he took them to 4 straight bowl games, winning 3 of them. That's a run of success Arizona has never enjoyed in decades. Brady Hoke went to Oregon as a DC, presided over a defense that was worse statistically than any under Rich Rod (they were actually 8 spaces worse than this year's Arizona team in points per game allowed), and was then fired and is now a defensive line coach at Tennessee.
I get you don't like RR, but trying to die on the hill of Hoke seems like a weird battle.
was whether I'd take Hoke or Rodriguez.
I'm sorry but if those are my only two options I'd take Hoke, warts and all.
I'm not trying to die on any hill. Both of these coaches are gone and we now have someone who is infinitely better than either.
High school coaches aren't dumb. They get an idea of what the coach is like, how the program is run and all that stuff because sending a player to college is a big deal. The high school coaches in this state wanted nothing to do with him.
How can you say "Hoke. Is this even a question" when he got WORSE every year despite having incredible recruiting classes? Give him one more year and he would have gone 3-9 given his tragectory.
What has he done since he left here? Who is hiring him as a HC?
NO ONE.
but because it's Michigan I'd have to choose Hoke.
In one of his terrible seasons here he couldn't put a kicker on the field who could kick it through the uprights from any distance. He publicly said that to fix the problem he "might have to pull the bus over on the way to Happy Valley and hold open kicking tryouts".
The kid who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that year was Gibbons, who, despite serious off-field issues, magically turned into a very good kicker under Hoke.
Hoke gets a fair amount of criticism for his special teams. Deservedly so.
I also seem to be one of the few who remembers that when Hoke got here the special teams suddenly got 1000X better and they were still bad. RR's teams never returned a kickoff more than 20 yards, coverage was awful and they went for it on 4th down because his kicker couldn't hit from 25 yards.
You messed up an excellent post with the last sentence. The Freep-generated "sanctions" were the least of my @#$%ing worries with that guy.
Still wish he'd have ended up at Pitt. He got a lot of kids at WVU from the WPIAL (District 7 in Pittsburgh where guys like Kugler, Winovich, Breaston came from) so he knows the area, he's a big enough name where kids would recogize him and the success he had, and the 35-40,000 Pitt fans that make it to Heinz Field would have loved to watch 45-42 games, even if their team didn't win.
But he accepted the job at Arizona about 3 weeks before Todd Graham left Pitt (after one season) so it wouldn't have worked out then. A big part of me wants to think that if his guys made Pitt aware he'd consider coming back after Chryst left for Wisconsin, Pitt would have hired RR instead of Narduzzi. Don't get me wrong, many around here love Narduzzi and what he's done for the program and its stability after the botched firing of Wannstedt and hiring of Haywood, then Graham, then Chryst's departure, and I like what he's done too. But RR at Pitt would have been fun to watch.
coaching Pitt?
He has not yet worn out his welcome. I live in PHX and work with many AZ alums. They are a different breed when it comes to sports, especially football. The people I know don't realistically think they can attract a better coach. And, they are more interested in basketball. They expect down years, and believe that with the right talent, he will cyclically have good years. They are content, at least for now.
Tucson is a strange place, and recruiting has to be brutal. A coach can recruit Mexico, to the South, or drive West all night to the doorsteps of USC and UCLA.
To the North, they can recruit PHX, but what little talent comes out (very little for a city of it's size) wants out of AZ, and certainly does not want to downgrade by moving to Tucson.
To the East, it's New Mexico, which they drive right through to try and get kids from TX and OK....
Not only is Tucson in the middle of nowhere, I don't believe they have even completed an indoor training facility facility for football. (If they have, it has been very recently completed).
My car read 110 on the way home from work yesterday.
"A coach can recruit Mexico"
Well if he goes to Mexico they might not let him back in.
I'll see myself out.
You got the joke, then?
Whew
the deep South...
ROD-RIGGIS!!!!!!
Arizona would be crazy to get rid of him...it's not like this is a top flight school.