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Oregon and the NCAA have reached an impasse in the payment-for-"scouting services" case

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:05 PM
#1
Erik_in_Dayton
Erik_in_Dayton's picture
Joined: 12/03/2008
MGoPoints: 6784
Oregon and the NCAA have reached an impasse in the payment-for-"scouting services" case

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--oregon--ncaa-reach-impasse-in-football-investigation-215913743.html

This should be interesting.  Some basics of story are below (I don't know how to block quote).

As part of that process, Oregon presented its stance in writing to the committee on infractions, suggesting the violations the school believed occurred, as well as the sanctions it believed were appropriate.

The sources said the committee ultimately did not accept Oregon's presentment, disagreeing with "various aspects" of both the infractions the school believed occurred, and the sanctions the school deemed appropriate. That impasse has made a full-blown hearing necessary. Had Oregon's request for summary disposition been successful, the school could have avoided a hearing in which individuals such as head football coach Chip Kelly could be made to appear and take questions.

Also, note the change between a proposed NCAA finding and Oregon's counter-proposal:

 In the first draft, the NCAA proposed:

• In 2010, the football program paid $25,000 for a subscription to Complete Scouting Services (CSS) and received oral reports from CSS representative Lyles. Additionally, the football program failed to gather recruiting or scouting information from CSS at least four times per calendar year, as required by NCAA recruiting or scouting legislation.

In its response, Oregon removed the phrase "failed to gather" and altered it to reflect what it termed as Lyles' service not providing what he had been paid the $25,000 for:

• In 2010, the football program paid $25,000 for a subscription to Complete Scouting Services (CSS) and received oral reports from CSS representative Lyles. Additionally, CSS did not disseminate to the football program recruiting or scouting information from CSS at least four times per calendar year, as required by NCAA recruiting or scouting legislation.

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra

                         

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:14 PM | iPhone (Score:2 Normal)
TheDirtyD
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Joined: 07/18/2009
MGoPoints: 942

I have a feeling that this won't be a big punishment that is handed out by the NCAA.

If you see someone in an airport with Michigan logos on luggage and they are wearing a pilot uniform come say hello.

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:48 PM | Probably correct.  Nike does (Score:3 Normal)
Elmer
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Joined: 04/22/2011
MGoPoints: 2098

Probably correct.  Nike does too much business with NCAA schools. 

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December 20th, 2012 at 3:47 PM | People always say this, but I (Score:1)
LJ
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Joined: 07/05/2008
MGoPoints: 618

People always say this, but I don't really follow the reasoning.  Nike does business with NCAA schools because...it's a good deal for Nike.  What would hammering the Nike poster school do to change that?  I don't think Nike would suddenly stop making their good business decisions and throw money out the window just to spite the NCAA.  And even if they did, the schools would sign with other manufacturer's and be fine.  If you're the NCAA, where's the threat?

This is a different situation than the NCAA being worried about hammering a marquee program because they make the on-field product less interesting.  I don't really buy that argument either, but the Nike thing makes no sense to me at all.

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:15 PM | In summary: (Score:5 Normal)
pkatz
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Joined: 01/22/2010
MGoPoints: 1298

Oregon sez: we did nothing, NCAA

NCAA sez: Oregon, you are full of shit

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:19 PM | You forgot this part: NCAA (Score:5 Normal)
Colt McBaby Jesus
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Joined: 01/08/2009
MGoPoints: 1199

You forgot this part:

NCAA sez: Oregon, you are full of shit, but we don't have much evidence, nobody is willing to talk to us and we can't make them. Your punishment will be very small, but we all know there was more than what you get punished for.

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:20 PM | I did forget that part (Score:2)
pkatz
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MGoPoints: 1298

thanks for the assist

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:34 PM | Looks to me like Oregon (Score:5 Normal)
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
MGoPoints: 13158

Looks to me like Oregon learned a little something from the way OSU handled their recent problems with the NCAA.  To summarize the "Ohio Way" when faced with an NCAA inquiry it's as follows:

NCAA: "You did something bad.  We are mad as Hell about it and think you should be punished!"

Ohio: "No we didn't"

NCAA: "Oh...ok then.  Nevermind.  Sorry to have bothered you guys....."

 

 

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:18 PM | Does anyone really take the (Score:0 Overrated)
exmtroj
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Joined: 10/24/2008
MGoPoints: 2210

Does anyone really take the NCAA seriously anymore? The only question is why we don't just jump in the super cheater sweepstakes and win some championships of our own. There are zero consequences for this behavior.

 

 

"All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch"

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:26 PM | I don't know...it seems since (Score:5 Normal)
hail2thevict0r
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Joined: 12/01/2008
MGoPoints: 9797

I don't know...it seems since the USC thing happened the NCAA has been handing out the bowl-ban hammer with ease. Ask PSU fans if they think the NCAA is a joke. I think the NCAA is out to prove it isn't one and schools like Oregon are going to be in their path.

OH-HOW-I-HATE OHIO STATE

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:39 PM | PSU fans might say the NCAA (Score:2)
El Tigre
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Joined: 03/14/2011
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PSU fans might say the NCAA is joke for the simple reason that they have been passing out the bowl-ban hammer with ease. 

 

I'll be honest when I heard they got a 4 year bowl ban my jerk reaction was "You're kidding, right?"  After hearing the reasoning I understand the need. 

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December 20th, 2012 at 2:35 PM | The NCAA skipped (Score:3 Insightful)
Lionsfan
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Joined: 06/03/2011
MGoPoints: 3892

The NCAA skipped investigating the phony academics thing at North Carolina, didn't bother when one of the Florida schools Athletic Director was soliciting a street agent, and just suspended the Texas starting PG for the whole year for what basically amounted to taking a workout when an agent was in the gym.

Let's not forget the OSU stuff and the Auburn stuff as well. The NCAA will always be a joke

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:40 PM | Because it is wrong (Score:5 Normal)
StephenRKass
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Joined: 07/15/2008
MGoPoints: 4202

(EDIT:  this post is in response to exmtroj, and the question, why not enter the super cheater sweepstakes?)

I realize I'm a boy scout. So be it. But I want people to do things the right way in every course of life, including the Michigan Football Team.

Your statement "There are zero consequences for this behavior" carries the clear implication that because of the zero consequences, Michigan should enter the "super cheater sweepstakes." Think through the horrendous implications of your statement. It was this kind of thinking (zero consequences) that allowed Jerry Sandusky to bring a terrible stain to Penn State's reputation. It allowed TP and friends to abuse Tats, Cars, and who knows what else at Ohio. It allowed a booster at Miami to provide hookers, drugs, and the like to plenty of players with the Hurricanes.

The "zero consequences" mentality affects every walk of life. It allowed an off-duty Chicago cop to beat a petite woman bartender because he was drunk, cut off from more alcohol, and believed the police code of silence would protect him. It can allow atrocities in wartime, if soldiers believe there are "zero consequences" for their actions in the field.

In contrast, when Hoke suspends 3 players from the Michigan team, it sends the clear message that there are consequences for breaking rules and not living up to the standards of the team. Hoke is neither cruel nor vindictive, but is acting in the best interests of both the individual players and the entire team. If winning a championship is predicated on having to cheat, I'd rather not win the championship.

"It does not matter how many times you get knocked down, but how many times you get up." Vince Lombardi

 

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:21 PM | H. Jackson Browne, Jr.- (Score:2)
M-Wolverine
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Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 38747

 

Our character is what we do when we think no one is looking.

 

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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December 20th, 2012 at 2:36 PM | There are no negative side (Score:1 Normal)
Hannibal.
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Joined: 09/09/2008
MGoPoints: 2497

Cheating in college football isn't the same thing as violence or sexual abuse.  There are no negative side effects to paying players for their services.  The concept of amateurism is purely arbitrary, and you can make a pretty strong argument that not paying players for their services is the immoral choice. 

If you'd rather not cheat to win a championship, then enjoy another decade of losing 9 out of 10 games to Ohio State while the Oregons and Auburns of the world play for national championships.  I don't know a single fan of a cheating program that feels guilty or has any regrets about it.  There's not a single OSU fan who feels like their victories over us lost any validity because guys like Terrelle Pryor and Maurice Clarrett were getting free vehicles and huge amounts of money under the table. 

Cheating works.  Either you win the "wrong" way or you lose the "right" way.  Losing the "right" way means not paying hard working, talented people for their valuable services. 

With that said, I don't ever want us to get involved with sleazebags like Willie Lyles.  Paying players is one thing, but paying kids' phony "friends" to steer them to a university that they wouldn't otherwise choose is sleazy as hell. 

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December 20th, 2012 at 6:39 PM | Those OSU fans are correct. (Score:2)
Logan88
Joined: 01/05/2009
MGoPoints: 2905

Those OSU fans are correct. Players who take cash, cars and other "impermissable benefits" do not have their on-field performance improved one iota. You can make that argument that some of those players might have ended up at different schools had those extra goodies not been offered to them. Pryor, for example, may very well have ended up at UM if he had not been steered there by his handler as UM (under RR) would have been a much better fit for his talents.

I have a bigger problem with programs who systematically use PEDs (MSU and Nebraska come to mind as teams that went that route in the not-so-distant past) as that actually impacts on-field performance. I personally consider Tom Osborne one of the biggest frauds in CFB history (right up there with St. Tress) as he ran a completely rogue program with rampant steroid abuse and numerous violent criminals on his teams, yet he is still hailed as one of the "good guys" of CFB.

We ARE Michigan....COME GET SOME!!!

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December 26th, 2012 at 3:19 PM | We'll agree to disagree on several things (Score:3 Normal)
StephenRKass
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Joined: 07/15/2008
MGoPoints: 4202

I can agree that cheating works, in one sense.

  • Cheating gets you an "A" on a test or essay.
  • Cheating gets you more money, if you can throw a game.
  • Cheating gets you better investing returns, if you have accurate inside info.
  • Cheating gets you more sex, if you have a  willing partner.

The caveat, of course, is that you aren't caught, or aren't punished is you are caught.

As I said initially, I don't want Michigan to cheat, even if that meant we would lose.

Here's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

  • Doing things the right way means losing 9 out of 10 to Ohio. I strongly disagree. I believe that in the long run, we will win more and compete more doing things the right way.
  • Doing things the right way means we won't win the MNC.
  • Cheating has no negative side affects in college athletics. Just disagree.

The one major point I agree with you on is that the whole system is broken, and that there should be some way to compensate athletes more fairly, short of paying them.

"It does not matter how many times you get knocked down, but how many times you get up." Vince Lombardi

 

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:19 PM | Chip Kelly to coach the KC (Score:2)
NFG
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Joined: 04/24/2012
MGoPoints: 2135

Chip Kelly to coach the KC Chiefs.

/s kinda

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:04 PM | Nah. Eagles (Score:2)
JeepinBen
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Joined: 01/22/2010
MGoPoints: 9529

More talent at the skill spots with Maclin, Avant, and Jackson. A QB who knows the zone read (if Vick stays).

"Over? Did you say, over? Nothing is over until we decide it is!"

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:41 PM | Jets (Score:2 Normal)
cp4three2
Joined: 08/03/2009
MGoPoints: 782

Tebow.

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December 20th, 2012 at 2:27 PM | I'm thinking neither Sanchez (Score:2 Normal)
turtleboy
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Joined: 04/22/2011
MGoPoints: 3207

I'm thinking neither Sanchez or Tebow is a Jet next year. Tebow was barely a Jet this year, even.

How many times have you been on the freeway and had someone fly by you at 100 mph then end up 2 cars ahead of you at the off ramp? What's the point? -Mark Harmon

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:24 PM | So basically, Oregon, under (Score:4 Normal)
willywill9
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Joined: 09/22/2008
MGoPoints: 11256

So basically, Oregon, under the direct supervision of Kelly + Assistants, paid this guy (who owns a scouting services company) to scout players and report back findings.  Instead, what is alleged (and most likely happened) is that they paid this guy because he knew particular recruits well and could influence their decision making in favor of Oregon.  They claim they received "Oral reports" but then scrambled to get written reports once the NCAA went digging around.

NCAA believes Oregon "failed to gather recruiting information" but Oregon is changing the blame (owner of the action) on the scouting services company it hired?

Hmmmm.  If I paid for a service or a product, and it wasn't delivered to me, I'm pretty sure I'd call and ask why it wasn't delivered, otherwise I'd want my money back.

Touchdown Michigan!

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:42 PM | eh (Score:2)
Erik_in_Dayton
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Joined: 12/03/2008
MGoPoints: 6784

What's $25,000 between friends?

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra

                         

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:56 PM | "You don't even like the kid, (Score:4 Normal)
willywill9
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Joined: 09/22/2008
MGoPoints: 11256

"You don't even like the kid, and all you gave him was $25,000?  Look at it as an investment, he'll avoid you the rest of his life."  Mild adaptation of a Bronx tale.

Touchdown Michigan!

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:29 PM | After the Pryor... (Score:1 Normal)
jmdblue
Joined: 12/01/2010
MGoPoints: 652

and Clarett debacles south of here and the Cam Newton disaster way south of here it's clear the NCAA doesn't give a damn.  These were all pretty easy to investigate, but involved high profile programs/players whose punishment would damage the NCAA "brand".  Half (or more) of college football is trying to copy how "cool" Oregon is...they're untouchable.

We're gonna play with toughness, we're gonna be responsible and we're gonna play with toughness.  This is Michigan.

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:41 PM | The NCAA can't force people (Score:0 Overrated)
david from wyoming
david from wyoming's picture
Joined: 03/15/2009
MGoPoints: 2813

The NCAA can't force people to talk. If Lyles didn't want to incriminate himself, what exactly can the NCAA do?

Why is there so much outrage over this? They can't do anything more.

Are you a park ranger at Yellowstone? Say hi to Yogi Bear for me. - the_big_house 500th

I may not be a 70 year old man. - Herm

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:02 PM | I don't know, he seems like (Score:4 Normal)
willywill9
willywill9's picture
Joined: 09/22/2008
MGoPoints: 11256

I don't know, he seems like he's willing to cooperate:

 

Lyles sat for more than five hours of on-the-record interviews with Yahoo! Sports, and made himself available for follow-up questions. He also provided access to phone records, emails and business documents to support his claims. He said he wanted to make his side of the story known and fill in gaps in the public perception of the case.

And...

Lyles said he spoke with NCAA enforcement staffers for six hours in early May as part of their ongoing investigation. He said he didn’t reveal the stories concerning Kelly, James and Seastrunk to investigators because the specific topics never came up in questioning.

Touchdown Michigan!

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:15 PM | Only the crack team of NCAA (Score:2 Normal)
mGrowOld
mGrowOld's picture
Joined: 10/04/2010
MGoPoints: 13158

Only the crack team of NCAA "investigators" could interview somebody from Oregon for over six hours and NOT ask about Kelly, James and Seastrunk. 

Can I ask what the fuck they DID discuss for six hours then?  His take on the latest Oregon uni's?  

 

 

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:51 PM | LOL, that was my favorite (Score:2)
willywill9
willywill9's picture
Joined: 09/22/2008
MGoPoints: 11256

LOL, that was my favorite part of that article.  Truly mind bottling.

Touchdown Michigan!

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December 20th, 2012 at 2:17 PM | mind bottling, eh? That goes (Score:3 Normal)
ChopBlock
ChopBlock's picture
Joined: 12/11/2011
MGoPoints: 1502

mind bottling, eh? That goes down in MGoLore, along with "pre-madonna", "delusions of granger", and "intensive purposes"

"The straightest line from A to B is straight: From A to B"

"When you have Denard Robinson, you can have everything"

~George Walden

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December 20th, 2012 at 3:05 PM | Totally stealing that. (Score:2 Normal)
User -not THAT user
User -not THAT user's picture
Joined: 06/05/2012
MGoPoints: 362

"They way Borges failed to utilize the offense in the second half of the game with TSIO this year had me mind-bottling for a full four more hours after it was over."

"Friday Night Mind-Bottling Thread".

Yeah, that works on many levels.  Many thanks and good vibes to you, sir.

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December 20th, 2012 at 3:19 PM | If Lyles... (Score:1)
Schmozerine
Joined: 09/12/2011
MGoPoints: 75

If that guy ever wants to work again in sports he is going to want to be as open as possible. If it gets pinned on him, which it sounds like Oregon is trying to do, then I don't think he will ever scout another high school kid ever.

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:14 PM | Lyles was talking last year. (Score:2 Normal)
B1G_Fan
Joined: 10/11/2012
MGoPoints: 322

Lyles was talking last year. This whole thing has just been drug out for a year and a half. Lyles has admitted to being paid to steer players to the highest bidder.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-robinson_scout_detail...

and

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ycn-8744131

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:41 PM | well, this certainly is a (Score:5 Normal)
TrppWlbrnID
TrppWlbrnID's picture
Joined: 10/29/2009
MGoPoints: 7875

BOLD post

2013 resolution - make it onto the 2014 favorite MGoPosters post, not ironically
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December 20th, 2012 at 12:47 PM | Yeah sounds like unless (Score:1)
JohnnyBlue
JohnnyBlue's picture
Joined: 01/18/2011
MGoPoints: 692

Yeah sounds like unless someone talks there is no proof what happens with the 25k even if its pretty easy guesd

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:54 PM | Western Kentucky will (Score:3 Funny)
ShockFX
ShockFX's picture
Joined: 07/16/2008
MGoPoints: 3958

Western Kentucky will probably get a couple years of probation for hiring Petrino as a result of this.

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December 20th, 2012 at 12:57 PM | NCAA Punishment letter (Score:4 Normal)
GunnersApe
GunnersApe's picture
Joined: 11/19/2009
MGoPoints: 4097

B-E-S-U-R-E-T-O-D-R-I-N-K-Y-O-U-R-O-V-A-L-T-I-N-E.

Fuck it, Dude, let's go bowling.

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:03 PM | A+ (Score:-1 Offtopic)
Danwillhor
Joined: 12/02/2008
MGoPoints: 551

A+

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:01 PM | One year bowl ban, three (Score:1)
BlueDragon
BlueDragon's picture
Joined: 11/14/2010
MGoPoints: 16707

One year bowl ban, three schollies a year for three years. Fair is fair.

Abort, Retry, Fail?

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:17 PM | Oregon broke the rules? (Score:1)
aratman
Joined: 10/02/2010
MGoPoints: 264

 Damn you Boise they were cheating right next to you and you didn't notice?  This is clearly the fault of some other school not supported by Phil Knight's money.

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:24 PM | Some More Details... (Score:3 Normal)
LSAClassOf2000
LSAClassOf2000's picture
Joined: 01/07/2011
MGoPoints: 8703

Oregon Live adds a few things to this as well - (LINK)

One thing that is in here that I found intriguing were some of the reasons that Oregon cited for redacting four of the allegations completely involve FERPA and Oregon Administrative Rules. Further, someone from Oregon apparently said that, as part of the disposition process, any bowl ban had been off the table initially.

Also, this was interesting:

"However, a review of the national recruiting package Lyles provided Oregon in 2011 consisted of names of players who had graduated from high school in 2010, thus making the package worthless. Included was a defensive lineman who had played for Auburn against Oregon in the BCS National Championship game."

 

"Funny isn't it, how naughty dentists always make that one fatal mistake."

Follow the random tweets of a Michigan alum - http://twitter.com/#!/LorneEC3

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December 20th, 2012 at 1:58 PM | Do not let facts or details (Score:2)
LongLiveBo
LongLiveBo's picture
Joined: 08/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1080

Do not let facts or details get in the way of a good story.

The Team, The Team, The Team.

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