New $1,000 Civil Penalty for Violating Quarantine (+ 90 Days in Jail, Criminally)
Mates,
This is new. On top of the $500 fine and up to 90 days in jail for violation of the Gov's Shelter-in-Place order, the Michigan Dept of Health and Human Services has this for us tonight:
Michigan Department of Health and Human Services Director Robert Gordon issued an emergency order Thursday setting a $1,000 civil fine to go into immediate effect for violating any of three of Whitmer’s recent executive orders in response to the novel coronavirus pandemic. The fine can be applied for each violation or day the violation continues.
Link to the article: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/04/02/coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home-violators-face-civil-fine/5119105002/
It is not clear who or how this would be enforced. As a civil penalty it would require a lessened burden of proof, merely a preponderance (slightest majority) of evidence as opposed to the criminal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. The AG has stated that it is not sufficient reason for the cops to pull someone over to inquire solely about where they are going, but if you go get stopped you might want to have a solid reason to be out and about.
Stay safe everybody,
XM
I agree with it in principle, and seriously, all states should be doing this. Enough of the population still isn’t taking this seriously.
But how will it be realistically enforced? That’s my question, along with everyone else’s I’m sure.
You are not going to be subject to this unless you are acting like a total jackass.
Probably and hopefully but the concept is frightening as hell.
Everyone's a conspiracy theorist now
Things are escalating...
Stay safe everyone
Everyone's a conspiracy theorist now so I have plenty of company.
FTFY
The point is that the name is thrown around and used to get people to not look into anything themselves. To discourage anyone from questioning the official narrative.
Just be a good citizen and listen to the mainstream news and their reliable sources. Not those loony conspiracy theorists..... but who are the conspiracy theorists ? Well its anyone the media says!
The concept isn't frightening. The frightening part is that a slumloard is running the COVID team and it's been allowed to get this far.
Uh, no. The AGs office was so overwhelmed with people trying to report businesses for failure to comply that they had to turn enforcement back over to local PDs. And now those local PDs are knocking on doors because Phyllis thinks her husband shouldn’t have to go to work and so she anonymously calls the PD to report his company even though she has never read the EO or the CISA list. That is literally what is happening.
Well that list can literaly engulf any small business as written, Economic sector could be taken as any business at all, so are you advocating business as usual?
Critical infrastructure (or critical national infrastructure (CNI) in the UK) is a term used by governments to describe assets that are essential for the functioning of a society and economy – the infrastructure. Most commonly associated with the term are facilities for:
- Shelter; Heating (e.g. natural gas, fuel oil, district heating);
- Agriculture, food production and distribution;
- Water supply (drinking water, waste water/sewage, stemming of surface water (e.g. dikes and sluices));
- Public health (hospitals, ambulances);
- Transportation systems (fuel supply, railway network, airports, harbours, inland shipping);
- Security services (police, military).
- Electricity generation, transmission and distribution; (e.g. natural gas, fuel oil, coal, nuclear power)
- Renewable energy, which are naturally replenished on a human timescale, such as sunlight, wind, rain, tides, waves, and geothermal heat.
- Telecommunication; coordination for successful operations
- Economic sector; Goods and services and financial services (banking, clearing);
i have the print out of the documents that my company sent to all employees last week saying that we are critically essential sitting the passenger seat of my car just in case i were to get pulled over driving to the office in the morning. i also have the PDF of those documents saved down to my phone also. i'm the only person in my office right now since i was the only warehouse person and deliveries are still coming everyday.
They are not going to be stopping cars on the roads for random checks. We all have the right to be out there going to get groceries, prescriptions, etc.
Stop the panic.
The problem is the essential/critical guidance by the federal government is less restrictive than the state's - and the governor's office hasn't been doing much clarification about it.
That depends upon the discretion of law enforcement and prosecutors.
I think most of the people in those roles are good people. But nobody is perfect. And not everybody is necessarily well-meaning.
Laws whose justness depends upon their not being enforced in most circumstances tend to be poor laws.
your point re: just enforcement is nowhere more prevalent than places like china or russia.
around here the cops have said they won't enforce unless its a big problem. i have read headlines nationally where the 9-1-1 operators are tired of getting 'tattle-tale' calls about these types of incidents.
"...9-1-1 operators are tired of getting 'tattle-tale' calls about these types of incidents."
Good Lord... I'd like to think you're joking, but I know you're not because people generally suck. That is not what 911 is for, and I don't care how many people are at that party! Just last Sunday here (VA), nearly two weeks AFTER a stay-at-home order was issued (lasting until June 10), 50-some people were photo'd in a tight line at a local ice cream store. This is a local fav (been featured on Food Network shows), and normally has lines of people every day. Sure, bad idea, but call the Sheriff's office - NOT 911!!! (Although, in this case, nobody had to be called - the police can usually be found in line with everyone else. Carl's is damn good ice cream!)
Nonetheless, I do believe in the 'enforce it if people are being more stupid than usual' side of the argument - but that does not mean calling 911. Enforcement can easily get out of hand. I mean, if you're going to let stores like Lowes/Home Depot stay open, then people are going there to buy a couple of 2x4's and a bag of dirt.
I understand there are large numbers of STUPID people in every neighborhood. How stupid do you have to be to not know the emergency number is 9-1-1? Yet every police/sheriff car has "EMERGENCY CALL 9-1-1". WHY? Fire the idiot who is in charge of this. Put a non-emergency local number on these cars so people know the number to call in a non-emergency.
Are you suggesting that the stay at home order should be voluntary? Without an actual penalty, that is all it is.
Think about speed limits. They are rarely enforced if you are going a few miles above the speed limit. But if there was no potential penalty for being over the speed limit, officers could not enforce against people significantly over the speed limit. At that point, how many people would obey speed limit signs? Probably a reasonable chunk would be somewhat respectful of them, but there would be a larger number that would likely flout them and traffic deaths would likely go up.
I ran through the Arb yesterday and was amazed at how many groups there were sitting all over the place not even social distancing. Maybe they were all roommates but based on the numbers highly unlikely. The groups were somewhat distanced from each other but I'm guessing the Arb and other public places will soon be closed because of this.
I can also see this order at least helping with situations like this because it gives law enforcement the ability to enforce with meaningful consequences.
"Total Jackass"... that's why several people below are scared! LMAO
Completely agree with this, punish the violators, take the money from it and put it in the coffers for PPE and getting the economy jump started.
Philippines approach would also be effective... shoot them on site! I like it! Saw a young woman with her fuck trophies at the grocery store the other day, they were wiping their nose on sleeves, running around the store, touching shit etc. (But I'm sure she feels it's her God given right... we can only hope COVID19 knocks out some of those people)
i hope this post is because of the stress of this event, but in any case i pity you that your heart contains thoughts like this.
get well soon.
If/when you and your family gets sick because someone couldn't abide by the simple measures of washing their hands and isolating... come talk to me. Or wait, how about I come to your house, and give your kids COVID19... in this day and age, regardless of your "feelings" it's still malicious intent if you go out and spread the virus... there's no arguments against that.
Nor is there any reason that one person per household can't go out and get groceries. You sir, are a jackass for suggesting that your liberties are worth more than someone's life. Yes, the above was stated for "SHOCK" value (if you didn't understand that, then you're also a jackass, since that grammatical approach is used all the time on this blog... so don't be a fuckin twit)
FYI... thank you, I am well, I'll stay well... because I know how to wash my hands Johns Hopkins taught me how to do that; don't think they teach that at UofM, nor ethics classes for that matter.
Thank you for negbanging me... it gives me a hard on...
Secondly, there's a reason why our leadership has said we're "AT WAR", because technically we are, we're all battling a virus. If you recall during WWII there were many times where both the East and West Coast were put on lockdown, and people were ushered off the streets and even told to "TURN OFF ALL LIGHTS". You may not be aware, in your infinite wisdom, but there was a German U-Boat that entered Jupiter Inlet in Jupiter Florida. The gravitas of this current situation is the same, we are at war with an enemy that's infiltrated our borders.
The virus is serious enough that the Federal Gov., has asked you to stay at home for your protection, and for the protection of your fellow Americans. Now... I realize that you don't give one shit about anyone else; this is obvious because you're complaining about civil liberties when people are being killed off by this invisible enemy. However, there are those of us who have family members... so I'm kindly asking your to pull the proverbial stick out of your rectum and join civilized Americans in agreeing to sacrifice your liberties for a few weeks while we're at war.
The Doctors, Nurses, and Medical Professionals of this nation THANK YOU!
I keep hearing people saying "enough of the population still isn't taking this seriously."
But those people rarely define "enough"?
So what is your definition of enough?
more than 0
Thanks for the answer.
I'd like people to more explicitly say that, vs. using the word enough.
EXPLICITLY say: "I support our governmental leaders making more and more stringent social distancing laws until we reach the point that every single one of the 333,000,000 Americans are following them to the tee."
If you set the standard that high - you're literally giving our governmental leaders unlimited power. It's the human condition that you will not get 100.000000% compliance.
Well, how about this for an example: I have a friend-a wonderful man whom everyone loves...he is a social butterfly. His wife has breast cancer and he has a 5 year old grandson who has leukemia. Saturday he popped into our place just to see how we are doing. Our little 55 acres is very isolated-we are 10 miles outside of town. But we are strongly quarantining ourselves because my wife, the Pediatric Nurse Practitioner, is on the front line and at significant risk for exposure-becoming a vector. "Mike" is fully aware of this-his grandson is a patient of my wife's practice. He is an intelligent, educated man-but there he was. If his wife or grandson get this they are gone-no question...but this fact simply did not register with him.This is the reality of how the general population views these orders...in addition to profound ignorance they evidently believe it only applies to others.
Right now the answer is zero. The routine interactions for us are restricted to our daughter and two grandsons. Even this holds great danger-daughter is an RN. Given the outside contacts of my wife and daughter, even our quarantine holds a fair amount of risk. People just need to understand that with the virulence of this virus the risks are everywhere.
Complete and total submission to government will over their persons. It appears that is what they mean.
Why does everything have to be hyperbolic with you?
My man, if you still think it is hyperbole, you are just not paying attention.
I tend to agree with you on this one.
We are at the point where some people are calling 911, because they look out their window and they see two un-related people talking to each other.
And despite being at that point - we now get even harsher penalties coming down via this executive order.
i thought i read an "ijohnb out" post a couple weeks ago.
Enough = Everyone (the fact that you're asking, says something about you)
Anything less, is not enough. Look, We The People tried to take the moderate approach at the beginning, but people couldn't wash their hands and be mindful... now we have to play hardball. It's very simple...stay at home, read a book, or tiddly wink on your facey-space account on your iPhone; I don't care.
Just to drive this home, I read an article just yesterday about GameStop, I believe they're the company that has video game stores nationwide, they've petitioned the Fed to stay open stating that they provide a vital software service to America.... roflmao...uh huh, that's just fuckin stupid.
Virtually everybody is taking this seriously, what they are not doing is hanging their heads and deciding their rights and the future of their children is of no consequence to them. And that is what is pissing you off the most.
But how will it be realistically enforced?
IDK.
But by way of comparison, cops in Denver are patrolling for violators of the governor's stay at home order.
On the news last night, a reporter mentioned DPD has issued 543 warnings thus far. Not sure what a warning means (is it verbal, is it a non-fine, no-show citation/summons, do the cops follow a violator home, etc.). The fine can be $999 though.
My wife was given a letter by her employer allowing her free travel to show to the police if she gets stopped.
Read this on Mr. Money Mustache blog. Kind of put things in perspective.
“We are in a self-imposed economic slowdown that has been created purely to save the lives of our most vulnerable people. Which is one of the most compassionate things our society has ever done.”
We should required a government order to stay home - it’s just the right thing to do.
the feds don't have that power. that power is reserved to the 50 states, basically the 50 governors of the states. if you don't like what they're doing, contact them.
The Constitution has a clause known as the "General Welfare Clause" and it is found in Article I, Section 8, Clause 1. It is the basis for taxing and spending and going back to Hamilton and Madison, it has been the source of considerable discussion that the clause provides broad powers for government to do things that enhance the general welfare of its citizens. Attempting to control the spread of an insidious disease, one could argue, falls within the purview of this clause.
[The Congress shall have Power] To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States]
taxing is one thing. remember obamacare was able to make it through the courts because they said it was a 'tax'. i think the 10th A can let the states do what they want in this specific area.
The general welfare clause to government lock downs is like comparing ham to hamster.
It's interesting you mentioned Madison because what Madison said is while the clause authorizes Congress to spend money...
It's only to carry out what is specifically listed in the subsequent clauses of the article you mention and elsewhere in the Constitution. Not to meet the infinite needs of whatever a politician wanted by slapping a "general welfare" label on something -- Madison identified that as an overreach of Federal power. Which is exactly what the Framers were trying to avoid in the first place.
Fast forward to 2020 and is it possible someone will run with your interpretation? Sure. It's not like Ds or Rs in Washington are following the rules and the people aren't paying attention to hold them accountable for their bullshit.
That's an extremely pertinent question. I would guess the answer is "unevenly." I'm glad I'm not the one in charge of implementing something like this.
The 90 days in jail part seems counterproductive.
The 90 days in jail part seems counterproductive.
It sounds to me that they are thinking the stay at home order is going to last at least 90 days and they aren't giving offenders a second chance.
This is going to get ugly.
Yep.
Government thinks they can just keep on tightening the noose.
If they keep at it, there WILL be a limit when it's going to violently boomerang back at them.
Agreed
I'm just startled at how things are going.
We knew, back when things started really bubbling up (22 days ago, on 11-March), that we were about 2 weeks behind Italy.
And I'm seeing an incredible amount of compliance from folks in terms of social distancing. Americans ARE playing ball. It's definitely a distinct minority of folk who aren't complying.
Italy hit their peak in new daily cases on 26-March, and it's starting to trend downward. So there is hope from what we are seeing in Italy (and other parts of Europe too).
Put us on the 2 weeks timeline, and we'll hit our peak around Easter. The #s are scary now, but they remain trending in that direction for us.
So --- most folk are complying, and we already knew the numbers would go up until Easter.
Yet, our governmental "leaders" need to shame us even further. Tighten that noose. Treat us like 5th graders. Install more fear than hope.
You're asking a lot of questions. That's what we need...
Keep it up
I've admittedly been more emotional than usual today.
But I just don't get the "logic" I'm seeing from some. Raising the fine and threatening jail does nothing but increase fear and resentment.
It's going to be a nice sunny day in Colorado Saturday. A beautiful day to take a drive across the Eastern Plains, where I would be self-quarantined in my car. In no way do I view that as overly irresponsible - but according to Colorado's own stay-at-home order, it's a jail-able offense.
I think I'm going to sleep. Hopefully a more rational day, including from governmental leaders, awaits tomorrow.
I suspect Italians complied with their stay-at-home order to a much greater extent than Americans have been doing. If you want to be on Italy's curve, you have to have equal compliance. I'm not sure how Italy achieved its compliance, though. Possibly from fear, since its health system in the north of the country had collapsed, and possibly from its "do it for the grandmas" campaign or whatever that was.
In Italy it's a criminal offense to violate the lockdown, hence the compliance.