My hat in the ring
This doesn't really mean much, but after this loss I don't think I can be an RR apologist anymore. I realize that if we go another direction at head coach we will be in for another 2 seasons of pain. At this point we are ND under Weis... there is no doubt. I just don't know anymore. If RR is fired at the end of the season I can't complain. It has been 3 years. My hat is in the ring. I will no longer try to convince people that this is right. We suck. Bad. And after three years you really can't explain it away. It's sad.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:07 AM ^
Drink some water to hydrate yourself so you don't get hungover and just go to bed. Things will look better in the morning, I promise.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:09 AM ^
Well, less bad anyway. But they're not going to look good until Michigan manages to win a game.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:55 AM ^
Wellll, I don't know if they will look much better in the morning. I have watched the game twice now, an we didn't look so good (on defense). However, I do believe we are going to get a defense in place in the next 1-2 years an will be looking much better by then. And yes, RR will still be the head coach at that point.
October 31st, 2010 at 7:20 AM ^
Well, it's morning and things still don't look to good.
October 31st, 2010 at 7:50 AM ^
Things don't look any better this morning. Our offense is great and our D sucks. I think its time to start looking for a new D coordinator. I understand we are playing a bunch of freshmen but no one has shown any improvement under GERG. We have the worst pass D in the nation and the corners give 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 5. I can stomach a bad D as long as it is improving week to week but the D is not improving at all. The defense made a scrub walk-on look like Tom Brady last night. It's time to start searching for a new D coordinator.
October 31st, 2010 at 8:44 AM ^
People said the same about Denard as a QB last year. No improvement week to week. Maybe he should be moved to another position. FWIW
October 31st, 2010 at 8:50 AM ^
Denard didn't see significant playing time every week like this years defensive freshmen do. I don't consider 3-5 snaps a game where all you're allowed to do is run the ball as significant playing. Cam Gordon and J.T. Floyd play 3/4 of the game every week and still blow assignments left and right. FWIW
October 31st, 2010 at 12:48 PM ^
Here's the problem with that analogy. We all knew Denard's raw skill set last year, even as he struggled to understand the playbook. There was hope because of talent alone. That's not the case with the secondary. Even if they have no idea what they're doing out there, they still won't be effective because they simply don't have the skill set to compete in D1. Kovacs has maximized his potential. Vinopal, Avery, Floyd and C. Gordon are all fatally flawed players without the size, speed, strength agility and recognition skills to play at the D1 level. Kovacs generally is at the right spot, but correct play diagnosis and discipline to stay in his gap yields few results because he simply doesn't have the skill set. Our secondary would be the equivalent of Vincent Smith trying out for the basketball team. It's just not going to happen.
The scarier problem is that nothing seems to be changing. Secondary recruiting (and defensive recruiting generally), is subpar this year. Even with Woolfolk back, and assuming Cullen Christian pans out (probably at safety), there are still multiple holes in the secondary. There is no replacement for the generally ineffective Mouton. The D-Line will be thin. It doesn't look like the defense will improve unless you have a new DC, and even then the lack of talent will only lead to at best a minimal improvement (which will be all the offense needs in 1-2 games with almost everyone on offense coming back). If I were Rich Rod and trying to save my job, I would focus exclusively on defensive recruiting. The offense is just fine (maybe an OL and that's it), but unless there's hope for improvement on defense, these type of meltdowns will continue, and thus a coaching change would be required.
October 31st, 2010 at 6:55 PM ^
...but this was just ridiculous...
Vinopal, Avery, Floyd and C. Gordon are all fatally flawed players without the size, speed, strength agility and recognition skills to play at the D1 level
Vinopal and Avery should be redshirting right this minute while Floyd and Gordon should be playing behind senior depth. There is no depth on the defense to speak of and so you have true freshmen in the rotation and guys who, realistically, should be behind better players (I am looking at you Donovan Warren and in your cell Boubacar).
The idea that these players all lack the "size, speed, strength agility and recognition skills to play at the D1 level is ridiculous (you may note that Avery was also offered by "D1" programs including Stanford, for example while Cam Gordon was offered by Iowa, Sparty etc.)
Avery and Vinopal are god damned freshmen so give them at least one season to prove their abilities.
October 31st, 2010 at 10:55 AM ^
All year I was defending GERG a little, never really loving what he was doing but just putting up with it. I want him gone now. I understand that everybody is young and we have injuries and transfers, but I'd like to think that a good DC could at least make young players with potential into an okay defense. The three man rush has to stop. Oh, wait. It can't stop anything.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:11 AM ^
We suck, and it seems that whatever direction the program goes in it doesn't look pretty. We let RR stick around, our defense will be under-adequate for years. We kick him out it's a new offensive system all over again. Is it crazy to ponder RR as an OC the way things are going?
October 31st, 2010 at 12:58 PM ^
Rich Rod will still be in demand at a mid-level school (e.g. Clemson), especially one where there is talent on defense already. But I do think an acceptable solution would be to hire a coach who we know in good faith (e.g. not forced) will keep the offense. An additional bonus would be to retain Calvin Magee to ensure that the offense continues. There's only one name out there that fits the bill and that's Dan Mullen. He's running pretty much the exact same offense at Miss. St. with Chris Relf, a poor man's Denard of sorts. His defenses have been stout, at a place with limited talent. He is the one guy who could come in and not disrupt the offense. Other candidates will disrupt the offense, make no mistake. Harbaugh will probably start over with Gardner, which will ruin the development and rhythm the offense has currently established. Other names will want to throw the ball more.
The most important issue from now on is to identify a good DC, whether to join Rich Rod or to accompany a new HC. We need assurances that the defense won't implode, while preserving the offense, which has been pretty solid. It will not be an easy task, but we have the right AD. One thing's for sure, unless Rich Rod pulls out 2 more victories this year, he's expendable. And I think he knows that.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:15 AM ^
October 31st, 2010 at 7:40 AM ^
I was thinking the same thing, thought you were offering your services for the coaching job.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:13 AM ^
I guess you don't understand, I work with quite a few old school UM grads in the office. I am literally a fucking cheerleader and have been for the last two years. They all come to me for some sort of conversation about why and how we have had our pants pulled down in the last two years. Man, I actually asked for RR first thought, to be hired when Lloyd said he was leaving. I have been in RRs corner since day 1. But after this? This is bad. We are bad. Not kind of bad, but bad bad. I can't go into the office Monday and explain this away. This was just flat out horrible. I am more sorry than anyone.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:25 AM ^
Most seem to agree that the offense has improved. So, there's that.
As someone posted in another thread: is the new coach going to bring some junior or senior DBs and LBs with him? Might as well get these kids another shot next year under the same system.
The O effectively needed 3 years. The D hasn't even gotten two years under the same system yet, so I don't really see how firing RR or GR is going to make anything better. It's not like the players aren't trying, so give them another year to learn and hopefully improve.
October 31st, 2010 at 3:34 AM ^
October 31st, 2010 at 1:02 PM ^
Because no one should be evaluated based on one year's performance - especially considering the number of D players who quit or are injured (that's hardly GR's fault).
October 31st, 2010 at 6:13 AM ^
We lean on Denard for the offense. Seroiously, what happens after Denard. Gardner's a great recruit, but he doesn't have Denard's running ability. Shit, who does? The offense will have to morph again when it's Devin's turn. I know it's a ways off, but I am losing confidence in this staff. The defense is a train wreck. We lack experience, depth, and talent. Not to mention coaching ability. Without Denard, our record probably looks more like 3-5 or 2-6. I understand doing what you have to to win, but are we leaning too much on Denard's running ability to win now in place of developing him as a qb for the next 2 years? I fear what happens if Denard goes down for extended time. I truly think 6-6 is our best case scenario right now. This is unbelievable. Last year is happening all over again. I don't know what else there is to say. Unless the light switch goes on for Gerg and the defense or we find a new DC that can coach these guys up, we are in a downard spiral.
October 31st, 2010 at 8:11 AM ^
our O did better with Tate in. The only thing that changes if Denard goes down is the QB leads won't be a primary option and the passing game will open up some. The thing holding the O back right now is the lack of a quality RB. I respect Vincent Smith for what he's doing lass then a year after a torn ACL, but RBs are never the same until year two after this type of surgery. He's more of a slot than a true RB (Shaw must really be hurt).
As for the D, Gerg is not or has he ever been a 3-3-5 coach. The defense didn't work against Purdue last year and hasn't worked this year and that's on RR (and I'm a supporter). Plus, I think the scheme hurts us in recruiting especially on the D line. Add in, taking Roh away from his biggest strength, being an edge rusher, and forcing him to play in space.... Unless RR can convince Casteel to come here I would prefer to see the 3-3-5 experiment put to bed as the base D.
Since we don't see what goes on in practice how can we determine anything about what goes on during the week. I saw kids in position to make plays, but they didn't. The bottom line is no matter what a coach does or how much he coaches them up the players have to execute.
October 31st, 2010 at 10:23 AM ^
I thought the same thing, but this board has told me that GERG did run a 3-3-5 and is very much in the know on how it is done. Which is kind of more scary than anything at this point. I would rather he had no experience with that thing he runs out on the field each Saturday.
October 31st, 2010 at 10:45 AM ^
Sir Dudeness.... it doesn't matter what scheme you run, if you don't have the players ready to run it.
Fault? Many things. See Decimated Defense.
October 31st, 2010 at 11:42 AM ^
Oh I agree. I was just commenting on the misinformation that GERG had never run a 3-3-5. He has. It seems people like to use that as an excuse for GERG when really the only excuse he has is that his players are young and there is no depth.
October 31st, 2010 at 12:46 PM ^
They still have to cover gaps, flats, etc. So, the 3-3-5 has a different guy covering the flats...Cover the flats. If the front 3 have a gap, than the LB's have a gap and so on.
I don't care if it is 4-3, 3-4, 4-2-5, 3-3-5, some player has the same responsibility in all the defenses. So the OLB in the 4-3 has to wall the slot and get to his zone. In the 3-3-5 it will be someone else.
Every coach has a preferred scheme. But every coach has probably game planned for every scheme and formation.
November 1st, 2010 at 2:13 AM ^
I think the only reason Tate did so well in the Iowa game is b/c Iowa wasn't playing as intense on the defensive side with such a large lead at the time. I'm not saying Tate isn't capable. I'm simply saying that Denard's running ability gives us a better balance and more options to beat the defense. As far as lack of quality RB, that idea is kind of muttled. With a QB like Denard, the RB isn't called upon as much to make the big plays. One look at the disparity in carries between Robinson and Smith shows you that. The number of carries by Smith is only determined by Robinson's read.
As far as Gerg goes, I don't think whether or not he previously coached the 3-3-5 is terribly pertinent. I know there's a lack of talent, depth, and experience. I think the main focus here is that Gerg is not connecting with the players in the way that is needed. I don't know what that way is. I'm not a coach. The players just don't seem to understand what he wants out of them. I just don't see any attacking from this group. As a defense, if you just sit back and let the O do what they want and try to tackle short of the first down, you'll just die a slow death. As we've seen, painfully. I want to keep RR around as much as you do. If he doesn't want to worry about the D as much as other coaches....fine, I guess. However, if that's the case, we'll need a DC that's almost like a head coach too. He's going to have to own his position and guys like he's the head coach. Gerg does not seem capable of that. I don't think we can make a change at this point in the season. If we don't see any improvement for the rest of the season and don't make a bowl or go 6-6, then a change has to be made in his spot.
Rich has made this offense into a juggernaut. With that fact, we don't need a defense that's a juggernaut. Would it be nice, yeah. All we need is a D that can get at least 4-5 stops a game and we win. I don't think Gerg can create that for us. I like the guy, but that's not a requirement for his job. He needs results and we're just not seeing any.
October 31st, 2010 at 8:52 AM ^
Without Denard, our record is the exact same. Tate beat ND and IU last year. No reason to think he wouldn't have done it again this year.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:31 AM ^
I am literally a fucking cheerleader
Is that similar to a fuck lion?
October 31st, 2010 at 2:35 AM ^
the order of "a" and "fucking"
October 31st, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^
Yea I was drunk as fuck last night. These posts read horribly, but I still feel the same about the staff.
/dick joke
October 31st, 2010 at 2:18 AM ^
For some reason this one stung more than Toldeo because we could explain that one away... This one? What can I say to make that seem alright? It just sucks. PSU is awful this year. Just awful.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:24 AM ^
And we are awful as well. But it's okay, because it's still Michigan football and it's fun to be a fun.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:29 AM ^
I don't know what that means, but I am going to bed. I just feel like... I don't have any idea, the coach could be dismissed tomorrow and i wouldn't even blink. This is not good, man.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:37 AM ^
Watching Michigan football should be fun. That is all. Go to bed, things will seem better in the morning.
October 31st, 2010 at 3:04 AM ^
October 31st, 2010 at 2:18 AM ^
If Brandon decides to keep RR around, we'll find out just how different things are under RR as compared to Lloyd when we see what kind of treatement he gives his flunky drinking buddies at the end of the year. I mean to argue that some kind of change isn't needed on the defensive side of the ball at this point is just fucking ridiculous.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:30 AM ^
a stylish beret perhaps?
October 31st, 2010 at 2:30 AM ^
If tonight's kicking performance holds, I'd say we're closer to 3/5. It seems we improved kick-offs over the past 2 weeks. Also, Gallon wasn't bad except for the muff he kicked out at the 2.
Regardless, I can appreciate the loss of faith, but we aren't ND under Weis. RR has been successful. Weis hadn't ever proved he could do more than tell Brady to throw TDs.
We also can't reasonably argue that RR's offense doesn't work in the B10. We appear to be moving the ball quite well. The decision-making needs to mature still, especially since the game is still slowing down for D-Rob.
No doubt this defense is embarassing. And the lack of depth is also embarassing, but take a good look at the number of quality Jrs, RS Jrs, Srs and RS Srs. Those players should be the core of the defense. Who are ours?
I know that's the story ad nauseum, but it's our reality. If we jump ship this year, the new guy gets an upper classmen at QB (something RR has never had), an offense with 9 returning starters, and a defense with 8/9 returning starters (most of whom will still be underclassmen).
One win is the key to an extra month of practice. That's all I wanted last year and all I want this year. Teams with Fr or So don't with MNCs. Since Mallet left, 2001 has always been our first chance to be nationally relevant again. That's still the case especially with improvements on both sides of the ball.
I'm not expecting this convinces anyone, but at least gets people off the ledge...for a night.
October 31st, 2010 at 3:45 AM ^
hate to break it from you, but Weis at least had a winning season or 2. You could say the same things about Rich Rod and Denard as Weis and Brady. So, uh, yeah.
Where are these improvements on D going to come from? there's been zero progression on D in 3 years, why's it going to change?
the only thing you might be able to argue is that our upside sticking with this formula is like Oregon... they outscore people, with some ability to force turnovers on D.
Personally, if we get one more win and make a shitbowl appearance, I'd be willing to give Rich another shot. If they fired him tomorrow, I probably would have no reaction. It's a total crapshoot either way. A defensive fix is not close at hand. I don't know where people get that conclusion/delusion. There's been null-nadda-nothing in the way of development on that side of the ball. One mike martin or brandon graham will not cut it in this league.
you've gotten soft and lost your edge if you're OK with things as they stand. It is not sustainable to force/expect Denard to put points on the board on every posession. 31 points on the road in happy valley should be plenty to win a football game, as our own, TomVH put it.
anyway, we'll see what happens. Next week, as we constantly say, should indicate how the rest of the season goes.
I will say, if we can't cover anyone or tackle anyone, why in gods name are we not sending 8 to the QB every snap? I mean, seriously... why not? better chance of forcing an errant throw or maybe stumbling upon a TFL. Our cover-8 is pretty pointless from here on out.
were I rich or greg, i'd be in desperation mode being as aggressive as humanly possible.
I really wish Purdue was next week instead of Illinois.
October 31st, 2010 at 8:02 AM ^
Actually, Weis had a 35-27 record at ND, and had 9-3 and 10-3 seasons his first two years.
Rodriguez to date, regardless of the reason, is now 13-19 overall and 4-16 in the Big Ten.
I wonder how much sleep Dave Brandon got last night.
October 31st, 2010 at 8:54 AM ^
This. Fat Charlie's belly jiggles with laughter at the thought of being compared to Rodriguez.
October 31st, 2010 at 1:55 PM ^
But success in both those seasons were a function of Brady doing all the damage while running around for his life because his line was so terrible. And those defenses weren't void of talent entirely. Look how he fared with Jimmah his first 2 (even 3) years.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:56 AM ^
I can't do it anymore...
I can't support our D...I point to the first quarter and us letting them convert on a few third downs, with a 3rd string QB...I point to the Indiana game where we should not have won by just one TD...I point to UMASS where we allowed 37 points to a meh FCS team...I point to last year, when we were arguably more talented, and couldn't stop anybody...
GERG has to go, and RR has to be on a short leash...If things don't turn around, and fast, we have to look at a new coaching staff...
October 31st, 2010 at 3:00 AM ^
Hey! Who hates micromanagers? We all do, and there is no reason to think that RR should be fired after this! Was I sick to my stomach after tonight? OMG! Yes! Send! However, say what you want, RR is hands off on defense? Yes! He is an offensive coach, and not everybody can be mr. everything as a coach! Hey, is Mack Brown a bad coach? He has a worst record than RR does this year? Are Texas fans calling for Major Applewhite as thier new coach? Damn we lost, and it sucks! If RR gets canned it is wrong! I am more about getting rid of GERG than anything! However, I am pissed! Hey, lets hire Harbaugh! Dumbasses! If your sense of Michigan football is like the way you F**k, you will never satisfy a woman! Learn football, understand what is going on! Our offense is top 3 in the country! The Defense is the worst in the country! It is not right what they are going to say......I am ashamed to drink beer with those who cannot understand the difference between being dealt bad hand, and havingin zero to work with! DAMN!
PS.....sorry nation, I have been drinking!
October 31st, 2010 at 3:08 AM ^
October 31st, 2010 at 3:56 AM ^
sigh. give me one reason to be hopeful about the future of Michigan's defense? one or two players will not make this a capable defense. even 1-man wrecker BG couldn't save that atrocity of a 2008 defense. There's zero development going on.
the offensive production is the only thing keeping this ship salvageable. It'll only take 1 more win and the extra time in prep for a bad bowl to keep me in support of keeping him around. but you'd be ok with Rich Rod starting 4-0 and 5-0 and losing out 2 seasons in a row? Really? I mean, that's a very Sparty-like performance...
October 31st, 2010 at 8:58 AM ^
Let me know the next time Mack Brown only wins 4 Big XII games over the course of three seasons and I'll tell you whether he's a bad coach or not.
October 31st, 2010 at 10:58 AM ^
Interesting comparison. Mack Brown has lost 4 games this year to our 3 losses.
October 31st, 2010 at 12:50 PM ^
also has a NC to his credit and 14 seasons (11 seasons of at least 10) in a row of 9+ wins. No comparison.
October 31st, 2010 at 11:22 AM ^
Isn't he around 131-29. Well, at least you're right about one thing, they aren't calling for his head in Texas. You're right though, I'm pretty sure his job security has more to do with everyone's great patience from the Longhorn community to turn that horrific program around because unlike RR he sure hasn't given anyone a reason to believe he can win!!
October 31st, 2010 at 3:09 AM ^
Does anyone here seriously still think this guy is going to reel off some conference titles and BCS wins here? Can anyone honestly see that happening? Has any coach in history been under fire for so long, performed so pitifully for so long, and been successful in the long run? Face it, this thing is just not going to work, the experiment has failed. No one expected a BCS title in year three, but we damn sure didn't expect, and shouldn't accept, a 7 game losing streak and 1-7 conference record to end the season. Anyone who says otherwise is in denial. This guy is a goner, as well he should be.