Oregon Wolverine

September 22nd, 2022 at 5:40 PM ^

RRod may have turned out to be a lout, but he was our lout and he deserved Lloyd's support from the date of hire.  Instead Lloyd undermined RRod and in so doing hurt Michigan.  

I'm glad his grandson is not going to Michigan.  I'd just as soon not see Lloyd on the sidelines every week.  Rather not see him on the sidelines ever again.

Joined: 09/30/2014

MGoPoints: 2628

Jason80

September 23rd, 2022 at 1:20 PM ^

Well you got your wish, no DeBord as HC at UofM. He was so bad he probably would have posted the worst career record of any Michigan coach ever. Yep, good thing we got Rich and not that, Lloyd is such and idiot for not recognizing it. And speaking of long run success, there is no way we would have nearly the number of B1G titles we have won in the last 15 years.

Joined: 10/05/2014

MGoPoints: 4099

KRK

September 23rd, 2022 at 2:21 PM ^

I'm not saying RR was great. But at least that hire made more sense in the moment than a washed up OC who everyone thought was terrible at calling plays. Lloyd wanted his guy, who everyone thought was a bad option, he didn't get that and submarined the guy they did hire.  RR's tenure aside, Lloyd was in the wrong here.

Also, DeBord went 12-34 at CMU and never won more than 4 games in a season.  So yeah, I'm the asshole.

Joined: 07/17/2008

MGoPoints: 5605

M Squared

September 22nd, 2022 at 7:36 PM ^

By no means do I claim to be an expert on Lloyd Carr but I did live in A2 during his coaching years, knew back then some people on the team and in the athletic department, and followed the program as closely as I could.  I always got the sense that he regarded the fan base including alumni and other supporters with disdain.  I mean, there are assholes among us, sure, but there are also those who genuinely support the program, financially and otherwise, and it seemed that he preferred to categorize just about everyone outside of the team as adversarial and out to take him down.  He also seemed to have an odd love for Ferentz beyond the norm. 

Last, I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that before his last season at Michigan he worked out a deal so that all of his assistant coaches received an extra year of compensation in case they did not find new coaching positions.  Look, I'm not against the sentiment at all; I get it.  And if he used his own money, bravo.  But he used Michigan funds to do that, and it always struck me that that seemed improper.  You could argue, well, that's just a form of compensation to Lloyd that he reallocated to others but the numbers (from what I can recall) did not bear that out (i.e., Lloyd made more than prior year and all the other coaches literally got an extra year of comp if they could not find a new coaching position).  And it also seemed odd to think that a football coach at Michigan would have a hard time finding a paying job anywhere else in the football world.  It effectively seemed like a way for Michigan to subsidize the assistant coaches during their search or increase their leverage in their negotiations, and it was a perk that Lloyd scored for them.  Again, great move for a boss, but who was that really for?

Joined: 07/02/2009

MGoPoints: 1908

OuldSod

September 23rd, 2022 at 5:12 AM ^

Assistant coaches getting an extra year of comp if they can't find jobs is common. It doesn't bother me as a taxpayer and alumni. There aren't many jobs where if a boss is fired or retires the entire staff gets cut and has to uproot their lives. The only comparison is political staff positions.  Coordinators sometimes don't get this deal but many position coaches do. This helps stabilize the profession, attract good coaches, and keep them in the coaching profession. It helps keep coaches around when a coach is on the hot seat or considering retiring too. Else, they'd bolt as soon as rumors swirled, undermining the season and recruiting. This would hamstring the new coach.  

Joined: 11/20/2008

MGoPoints: 4117

1VaBlue1

September 23rd, 2022 at 8:15 AM ^

So you're vilifying a coach for doing what good coaches do - regard outsiders as outsiders.  And you're vilifying a coach for doing what good coaches do - try to protect his team as best he can from outside assholes that fling poo like monkeys.  And your vilifying a coach for doing what good coaches do - try to take care of his players and staff.

I'm glad I don't work for you...

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

OldSchoolWolverine

September 22nd, 2022 at 8:46 PM ^

Carr wanted to promote deBord and Martin, who wasn't a football guy, hired RR.  Can understand the emotion.  Not jusitiying anything, but Carr was in a pretty bad spot knowing RR was a dud.  

For Carr to get the top recruits he got, he had to make them promises, notably Boren and Mallet. In Mallets case, Carr would have had to lie to say it's best he stay in that offense.  Give him a pass here. The entire thing was unfortunate.  

Joined: 11/03/2013

MGoPoints: 27130

gbdub

September 22nd, 2022 at 9:47 PM ^

“Carr was in a pretty bad spot knowing RR was a dud.”

Oh come on, Carr didn’t know RR was a dud, he just knew RR wasn’t “his” guy. Carr had a good old boy network and RR was an outsider.  

DeBord would have been a disaster too, but with an opposite trajectory from RR (probably a decent “Wile E Coyote year” then falling off) so it’s not like Carr was a wunderkind at identifying coaching talent (Carr’s coaching tree is pretty bleak!).

Joined: 02/16/2010

MGoPoints: 26761

1VaBlue1

September 23rd, 2022 at 8:21 AM ^

I will always maintain that Carr did right by Mallet.  At Mallet's request, he explained what Rich Rod's offense was, and how Mallet did not fit in it.  And he was absolutely correct.  He gave Mallet information to make an informed decision, and he made it.  And I don't blame Mallet one stinking bit for bolting from a Rich Rod offense.  He was not the QB Rich Rod needed, wanted, or would have used in a way that was good for both.  No...  Rich Rod would have tried to turn the statue known as Ryan Mallet into the second coming of Michael Vick.

And it would have failed just as miserably as Steven Threet failed...

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

1VaBlue1

September 23rd, 2022 at 12:23 PM ^

Correct!  And I had high hopes for him based on him saying the 'he tailored his offenses to personnel'.  But then he didn't.  He had pocket passers and forced them to run his WV offense tailored to Pat White.  Now I concur that the pocket passers he inherited were not very good ones, but they were still better at pocket passing than they were at being Pat White.

Joined: 01/31/2016

MGoPoints: 127087

snarling wolverine

September 22nd, 2022 at 7:43 PM ^

Shit, can you people not put two and two together?

Lloyd Carr invited Rich Rod to come here.  That suggests that he had nothing against his offensive system, or West Virginia background.  But, not long after Rod's hiring, Carr turned decisively against him.  A lot of other people in the athletic department also seemed to dislike Rod.  We didn't know why at the time, and John U. Bacon offered no explanation in the book.

Then a few years later, Rod got fired from Arizona - for sexual harassment.

If you think Rod was a Boy Scout in Ann Arbor and became a monster in Tucson, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Joined: 12/14/2011

MGoPoints: 98351

CLord

September 22nd, 2022 at 7:11 PM ^

Loyal to the university up until his time had passed, as evidenced by his total incompetence adapting to spread offenses and read options, aka The Horror and Dennis Dixon and Oregon's obliteration, followed by the scripted mobile QB attack that OSU exploited against us countless years, leading to their rise and dominance over the program.  Yes, worst sentence I have ever written.  Why? Because Lloyd sucks.  Lloyd loves himself some Lloyd, and fancies himself a philosophy reading sophisticate above trivialities like loyalty to a a program over a silly game.  

Compare Lloyd to someone like Barry Alvarez, who stayed locked into his school and program even after his coaching days were over, ensuring Wisconsin's rise.  Alvarez is 20X to Wisconsin whatever Lloyd was as he rode the incredible talent he inherited for years to the successes he provided. 

Joined: 09/11/2011

MGoPoints: -6341

OldSchoolWolverine

September 22nd, 2022 at 9:21 PM ^

The only thing one can say against Lloyd was he didn't bring it hard enough to the Ohio recruits when tressel was trying to shut out the state, which he succeeded. 

We haven't recovered since. And you can correlate our lack of success with the time we got shut out.  We need Ohio players because they have far more stake in the Game than anyone else with all the shit they get back home. 

Joined: 11/03/2013

MGoPoints: 27130

Hairbaugh Maximus

September 23rd, 2022 at 7:13 PM ^

This sounds a little like sour grapes to me. First of all, Lloyd was not incompetent in adopting to the spread offense. Let’s get that straight. And where did you come up with the idea that he invited RR? I never heard or read that. That doesn’t mean he didn’t. But I would like to see a source on that.

Joined: 01/12/2021

MGoPoints: 56

Yeoman

September 23rd, 2022 at 8:21 PM ^

 Is Brian at mgoblog a good source?

On Monday night, December 10, 2007, Rodriguez received a call from Lloyd Carr, which marked the first direct contact Rodriguez had from someone representing Michigan. (Rodriguez was my source, and his recollection of it was consistent in a handful of accounts over a couple years.)

On Tuesday, December 11, Lloyd Carr told Bill Martin that Rodriguez would be a good candidate. This marked the first time someone within the department had made this suggestion to Martin, according to Martin himself, whose recollection of the conversation was also consistent over several interviews.

Joined: 06/08/2011

MGoPoints: 21390

Amazinblu

September 22nd, 2022 at 5:45 PM ^

Rich Rod was in over his head for a number of reasons.  That being said - IMO - Carr didn’t make it any easier for him.  The transfers Lloyd signed depleted certain position groups on the roster - which helped create a near decade of (mostly) dismal results.

I appreciate that Carr emphasized how important graduating is.  His “curmudgeonly” approach with the media was fine with me.  And, the fact that he had the University provide two year contracts to the football staff - when he knew he was going to retire - reflects his interest in “taking care of people”.

This being said - the tunnel is incredibly special.  I’d have preferred they name one set of skyboxes after him - instead of the tunnel.

Perhaps they could have named the press box after him - it would have a certain irony.  I don’t know if the press box is named - but, if it were to be named.. Bill (Willian Norman) Fleming should be considered as the person it’s named after.

Joined: 01/22/2010

MGoPoints: 41296

mackbru

September 22nd, 2022 at 7:08 PM ^

It's absolutely infuriating that people bash Lloyd Carr. He only won Michigan its only national championship in the modern age; he led the team with great integrity. Not many coaches emphasize academics the way he did. And all that RichRod garbage is just that: garbage. It's largely based on the fact that Carr had the audacity to tell a statue-like drop back QB, Ryan Mallett, that he wouldn't be a good fit in RichRod's offense. As we saw with poor Steven Threet, Carr was right. People consider him "disloyal" because he gave certain players advice that was clearly in their best interest. And, btw, RichRod turned out to be a bad coach and a worse human being.  There's also that BS thing about Carr daring to sit with Iowa folks at Kinnick, even though that's what visiting ex-coaches and ADs do. Just conspiracy theory nonsense. No fucking respect.

Joined: 09/01/2009

MGoPoints: 34136

JacquesStrappe

September 22nd, 2022 at 8:22 PM ^

Carr was and is absolutely a man of integrity. He emphasized intellectualism and education for education’s sake as part of becoming a well adjusted adult, his players graduated, they didn’t get in trouble, and represented the program and the school well when their playing years were done. That’s enough in my book to merit an honor such as this for a man who was a loyal and longtime part of Michigan. Oh yeah, he is also Michigan‘s only national championship coach in the modern era. 
 

While I’m glad Michigan has moved on from some of his more dates Xs and Os approach to playing the game, I have absolutely no qualms about honoring him in this relatively modest way. It’s not like they gave him a building or named the field after him.

Joined: 04/19/2019

MGoPoints: 4994

blue in dc

September 22nd, 2022 at 6:42 PM ^

I suspect there is much more that went on during that transition than we will ever know.   Key people didn’t want to be interviewed, so we heard the incomplete story in Bacon’s book.    Bacon indicated that many of Carr’s confidant’s told him Carr wanted out after the 2006 season.   If he’d left then, the cupboard would not have been bare and the horror probably never would have happened.   I suspect many would think much better of Carr.   The real villain here is Bill Martin who handled the transition horribly and screwed Carr, Rodriguez and the whole football program.

Joined: 01/22/2011

MGoPoints: 20401

OldSchoolWolverine

September 22nd, 2022 at 10:00 PM ^

At the time in 2007 a former player well connected to program, told me that Carr wanted out... And that Martin had him stay on.  Word got out, and recruiting fell off a cliff, and he said this exact thing. He stayed on an extra two years. Had he not done so there was a good chance Dantonio would have been hired from Cinci. He was waiting for the call.

Joined: 11/03/2013

MGoPoints: 27130