META: Football X's and O's questions for Seth?

Submitted by Seth on October 20th, 2021 at 1:49 PM

Going to try a new video thing for the site soon, because it's getting cumbersome to reply to this in the UFR comments and I figured I could be creating content just as quickly.

If you have any questions about Michigan--something from the UFR, about a certain kind of play, a specific play and how it worked--let me know in the replies, and I'll try to pick a good one to talk about.

I asked on Twitter too: https://twitter.com/Misopogon/status/1450881692919648266

beenplumb

October 20th, 2021 at 1:57 PM ^

What is the best way for a layperson to identify what kind of coverage a defense is in? What are some hints or clues to key in on so we can identify what our offense is up against on any given play.

I'll hang up and listen. Go Blue!

gremlin3

October 20th, 2021 at 7:00 PM ^

TV angles make it very difficult (and most often impossible) to tell what the coverage is when the play is going on.

Since you can't see deep safeties, the best way is to watch the depth and eyes of the corner. Press alignment almost always means man, and especially if the eyes are laser locked on the WR. Off alignment almost always means zone. Perhaps the best way to tell man is to see if inside LBs run with receivers. If they're in zone they never run with a receiver immediately off the snap. To tell who busted, figure out who isn't doing what everyone else is (man or zone) and then who's assignment was missed.

To really know would require much more detail, so this might be a good Q for Seth to tackle.

mGrowOld

October 20th, 2021 at 1:59 PM ^

So this will basically the portion of the site where guys like Seth, Space Coyote, Magnus and Due can all look like football savants while the rest of plebeians ask questions like "how come we keep calling the plays that dont work so good?  Why dont we just call the good plays instead?"

Oh, and we can argue about if the QB actually has a read option or they're all designed runs.  Those debates are fun too!

Mgoeffoff

October 21st, 2021 at 7:26 AM ^

I want to host a five-minute segment on probabilities and risk analysis for football called "Why Fans Are Phenomenally Bad At Guessing"

I can think of some other statistics the public doesn't seem to understand either that might lead them to incorrectly assume people are selfish.  Maybe we can add it to your segment.

energyblue1

October 20th, 2021 at 2:43 PM ^

I highly recommend fans watch film breakdown videos.  Not just Michigan but others.  If you love football, played through high school and want to learn a lot more go to a coaches clinic.  

Listen to head coaches, coordinators, position coaches speak and break down the game or play, strategies opens your eyes so much more.  You start seeing what the play calls are, why execution from all 11 positions means and how one missed assignment can kill a play or one great play can beat a play that would have been won by the other side.  

Different coaches obviously have different philosophies and schemes with what they want to do so it's really cool to see them.  

Next, you start seeing why calls are great, good, bad or execution was good great or bad from both sides of the ball.  How one missed chip block on a blitz pick up is the difference in a major loss vs a td.  How one lber destroyed an OG but the DT next to him was driven out of the hole by a center and why a RB got 8yds instead of dropped for a loss.  You also see some coaches film from the stadium, not the TV film which completely changes perspective as well.  

Stanley Hudson

October 20th, 2021 at 2:08 PM ^

This topic has been beaten to death but I’d love for you to revisit the RPS. You all refer to it across several posts/podcasts, but it’s still unclear to me as to how exactly the reader should interpret it.

When I think of Rock, Paper, Scissors- I am thinking of a game of luck. Sure there are people that play it competitively (lol) and maybe they study the opponents tendencies. But for most people, it’s a game for who has to buy shots or who has to pay for pizza, etc. I’d say throwing paper when a friend throws rock is pure luck. 

As it relates to football, I would not call it pure luck when a OC calls a screen when the opposing team is sending 6. That’s more about film study to me. If Michigan finishes a game +20 RPS does that mean we had a good game plan or we were lucky? 

stephenrjking

October 20th, 2021 at 2:16 PM ^

One would expect luck to even out at the end of the day, usually. A considerable RPS advantage usually means that one team was either better, or one team was worse.

A good example might be the 2017 Minnesota game, where Minnesota simply declined to block Khaleke Hudson when he blitzed, leading to him breaking the school sack record. That was an example of "bad" RPS scores.

"Good" RPS scores can include things like the opening Michigan State drive in 2016, when MSU used formations and player movement to exploit what they knew to be Michigan's alignment and assignment rules to get free blockers on Jabrill Peppers, marching down the field on us. 

A "good guy" version of this is how Michigan schemed the TE leak plays against Nebraska last week, using the knowledge they had of how Nebraska plays defense to get a free receiver open. 

There are some play calls that are bad because it's a bad guess. But good film study gives a good staff an excellent idea of what their opponent is likely to call, which makes bad guesses less frequent. They still happen, though, so there will always be RPS minuses. But when there are a lot of them, you have an imbalance in quality of playcalling. That's the working theory, anyway. 

Stanley Hudson

October 20th, 2021 at 3:51 PM ^

So if that’s the logic, we are kind of saying good coaching = positive RPS. 
 

ie going after Dax on the field side edge is negative RPS. Wisconsin running 20 straight times against our terrible d-line a few years is positive RPS. 
 

If I’m understanding it right, I’d suggest it’s not really similar to Rock Paper Scissors and should maybe have a different name. But I understand calling it that could be a good “catch all” for judging playcalling/personnel decisions by the coaches. 

ESNY

October 20th, 2021 at 11:04 PM ^

I don’t think it’s calling a play that has a schematic advantage as much as you happen to call the right play at the right time to make it extra effective. Like if you called the DL to slant left at the same time the right guard was pulling you might have a free DL meet the RB in the backfield. Or call a screen at the same time the D has an all in blitz’s.
 

Now some of that might be chalked up to tendencies but you happen to call the right play at the right time against the right call

Pumafb

October 21st, 2021 at 11:00 AM ^

There is certainly a significant amount of luck in RPS, but you can put yourself in a better position to have good luck. By that I mean, we call things based on our scouting and game prep in certain situations. Coaches look for tendencies and will make calls (defensive and offensive) based on those tendencies. If my high school team catch them doing what we though they would do, it's a big RPS win for us. It's also why we self scout every week so we can look to break certain tendencies we have. For example, in our jumbo set for short yardage, we ran toward one of our H backs about 90% of the time. We made sure we started calling that same play to the opposite side as defenses started to load up and send guys based on that tendency.

treetown

October 20th, 2021 at 4:17 PM ^

This type of deep analysis is standard today.

Would you know when did this approach started? Or was it always this deep even back when teams used to exchange actual 35 mm films?

Some of this stuff looks like it is easy to pick up on a digital video that one can REW-FWD-REW-FWD and go through frame by frame, but might seem very hard to see or painful to watch on actual 35 mm or 16 mm black and white film.

Seth

October 20th, 2021 at 5:19 PM ^

RPS is a chance element which (and this is key) is handed out when the result of the play can't be attributed to a player. Take these three plays:

  1. Michigan sends six. Josh Ross isn't picked up, flushes the QB, and he has to throw it away.
  2. Michigan sends six. The protection is set to the other side and the RB comes back to Ross too late to stop him from flushing the QB, who has to throw it away.
  3. Michigan sends six. Josh Ross, a great blitzer, dodges past a running back who sucks at blocking, flushes the QB, and he has to throw it away.

All of these were good outcomes worth +2 (for a +2 pressure event). You can guess but here's how I divvy up those points

  1. RPS+2. The defense gambled on a blitz, the offense did not have a protection that had any chance of stopping this blitz, and the player didn't do anything but run at the QB.
  2. Ross+1, RPS+1. Ross's speed and angle made it hard on the RB to get back, but offense's protection scheme gave Ross an advantage.
  3. Ross+2. Even if this is a favorable matchup, the player gets full credit for his own attributes that make it a favorable matchup. Afterwards I will note something about the level competition (this RB sucks at pass pro) when we put Ross's score in context.

I do a similar thing with refs as I do RPS. If Hutchinson was in position to turn this pressure into a sack (a +3 event usually) but got held, I give the refs-1 and Hutchinson+1 for generating the hold. If the hold was irrelevant to the play, I ignore it.

Phaedrus

October 20th, 2021 at 10:26 PM ^

I think you should have the content of this post linked to in all the UFRs. Although I always understood the basic concept of RPS, this clarified it in a way that was extremely helpful.

There were times when I thought the RPS scores were odd because it seemed like one team really out-schemed the other but it wasn't reflected in the score. They were probably games where mismatches were leveraged by one team or the other, so the points went to the player instead of the coach. Thanks for posting this.

VintageRandy

October 20th, 2021 at 2:16 PM ^

Very excited to hear this Seth, I was just thinking earlier about how much I miss Neck Sharpies. This question may be more mailbag style but here goes:

RPOs, Mesh, and Speed in Space:

In the Rutgers game I was elated to see two successful RPOs to Roman Wilson and Mike Sainristil that put speedy slot receivers in a position to win footraces in the open field. Ever since seeing the 2018 death-by-crossing routes, it felt like the offense wasn’t taking advantage of the opportunity to repurpose the OSU “Mesh” cheat code that was unleashed on us to devastating effect. This may be an incorrect read on this concept, since 3 years can be an eternity in cutting edge offensive play but:

1. Has crossing-route “Mesh” been found out?

2. If not, why don’t we see more of Henning/Wilson/Sainristil on slant RPOs across the middle of the field? If Olave > B. Watson, surely Our Slot Bugs > most B1G CBs? 

Pumafb

October 21st, 2021 at 9:37 AM ^

Mesh isn't a new concept so it hasn't been "found out." OSU ran mesh and shallow concepts against Michigan in 2018 because Michigan's slot corners were not fast or athletic enough to run with them based on alignment. If I recall correctly, earlier in the year, Michigan's slot corners were playing head up to inside technique and were murdered by slot fades because, again, they were not athletic or fast enough to cover an out breaking route from inside technique. They "fixed" that by aligning more head up to outside shade. That took away that slot fade, but left them vulnerable to shallow crossers which Indiana first exploited. We all know Don Brown's scheme was heavy man and pressure. Zone could have helped, but that's not what Brown did. 

Teams still run mesh and shallow. Mesh is typically considered a man beater because it's a rub concept )though you can run it against zone....your mesh routes cross and then sit in windows before they run into the next zone defender). Shallow is more of a zone beater as you high-low the LB's with the shallow/dig and high-low the safety with the dig/post. RPO's are different. That is a 2nd level read that determines if you give the ball or pull and throw. You can read front or backside and inside or outside depending on the run play and pass route called. You can certainly do it with quick, shallow crossing routes or you can do it with slants, bubbles, sticks, pops, hitches ect. For example, the high school I coach at has a play called 83 Big 9 Hole. The line, back and QB are running inside zone. The QB reads the backside inside LB (Big). The TE is running a 9 which is technically a fade, but because he hits him quickly if the read is there, it's basically a pop pass, the #2 receiver runs a bubble and the outside receiver runs a stick. If the LB plays downhill on the inside zone, you pull. The next read is the safety. If he is deep still, throw the pop. If he if playing over the pop and coming down, you move to the bubble/stick and read the flat defender. Whichever he plays, you throw the opposite.

Blue@LSU

October 20th, 2021 at 2:29 PM ^

I've always been a big fan of the screen pass. And maybe it's just my perception, but it seems like we are just bad at them. Like, to the point that we don't even bother to run them anymore. What's up with that? 

Pumafb

October 21st, 2021 at 10:49 AM ^

That would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible to block. In a tunnel screen, parts (or all) of the OL let the DL go to pass rush after a 1-2 count and release to pick up down field defenders. You can't block a run play and do that at the same time and that's required for an RPO.

m1jjb00

October 20th, 2021 at 2:43 PM ^

What are the pros and cons of running a phony read-run offense out of a gun versus admitting you're not a read offense either under center or some other scheme out of a gun.  Maybe the time it takes to pretend you're reading the end isn't a big deal or gives some timing advantage to the offensive line? On the other hand, assuming the end isn't going to crash down (or at least you buy a linebacker scraping over to replace on the end) seems dangerous, no?

Erik_in_Dayton

October 20th, 2021 at 2:43 PM ^

I don't have a question at the moment, but this is a fantastic feature.  Seth is the 2003 Chris Perry of the Michigan football internet.  50 carries?  Seth can do it.

bsand2053

October 20th, 2021 at 3:13 PM ^

I have a hard time identifying run plays.  It’d be great to have a video breaking down the main plays we run so I can follow easier while watching.  

Jon06

October 21st, 2021 at 5:25 AM ^

Despite this, I think the request is still a good one, and points towards a different kind of post. It'd be cool to have a frame-by-frame breakdown of a few plays where the emphasis is on identifying the play. E.g., in frame 3 here, we can see the OL stepping back into pass protection, so that means it's either a pass play, or a draw, or ... And in frame 5 there, we see the RG is pulling, so that rules out plays x, y, and z, and means it's power or ... 

That kind of post might help people get into a position to make better use of the assembled knowledge in the extant Neck Sharpies posts.

Yahtzee

October 20th, 2021 at 3:43 PM ^

Short yardage run plays (ex 3rd and 1).  Advantages/Disadvantage of running out of shotgun vs under center.

In my little football knowledge, seems like hiking the ball back 4 yards puts you at a disadvantage from the get go.  Also gives the LB/DB more time to fill gaps.  Whereas having the QB under center and either QB sneak or FB/RB up the gut (ex Khalid Hill, Ben Mason).  It just seems like the conversion percentage is higher when lined up under center.

JamieH

October 21st, 2021 at 12:18 AM ^

I think there is something to consistency.  If you take 99% of your snaps from the gun, lining up under center for a handful of short yardage plays might lead to an unexpected error.  College teams have limited practice time.  If you never line up under center, you never have to practice it.

Yahtzee

October 21st, 2021 at 9:00 AM ^

Very true.  They have run both this year, so it would seem they are practicing both.  I take that back, it was JJ under center vs. Wisconsin.  Don't recall ever seeing McNamara under center.  I am probably wrong on McNamara though as I enjoy a few to many cocktails during the games and normally black out mid way through the 3rd quarter.