Interesting email from Tom Mars on NCAA overreach
Tom Mars - Harbaugh's lawyer - has a pretty interesting tweet and thread about a coach for which the NCAA has recently requested all emails, texts, and photos from without regard to relevance to the case. Bacon thinks he is talking about Harbaugh but you can decide for yourself.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:05 PM ^
The NCAA can't die fast enough.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:35 PM ^
Or the university that actually yielded to these demands and handed these things over. How do we not defend him from that? Would any of us wish to work for an employer who didn't defend us from this?
February 8th, 2024 at 9:44 PM ^
And not only handed them over but did the NCAA’s dirty work and suspended him ourselves.
Then backed out of trying to get a TRO to avoid another suspension.
Then refused to guarantee his job in the wake of these two bullshit investigations.
Real shocker that he decided he didn’t want to stay.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:12 PM ^
FWIW, it was Harbaugh’s decision to back out of the TRO.
He was suspended by the school in large part because violations DID occur. Nobody is denying the Level II violations. NCAA takes time served into consideration for their punishment, so losing Harbaugh for that gauntlet of a non-conference slate we played this year to avoid further future punishment wasn’t a bad plan. It all would have hinged on that Level I violation, but Harbaugh is gone anyway so it’s a moot point.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:28 PM ^
i'm a one-off (two-off?) of direct comm's on this, but that one-off at the time says you are wrong re: harbaugh's decision. if anything, he did what the admin/regents/AD wanted him to do.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:33 PM ^
"This morning, the University, Coach Harbaugh, and the Big Ten resolved their pending litigation. The Conference agreed to close its investigation, and the University and Coach Harbaugh agreed to accept the three-game suspension," began a statement from Associate Athletic Director Kurt Svoboda. "Coach Harbaugh, with the University's support, decided to accept this sanction to return the focus to our student-athletes and their performance on the field.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:45 PM ^
Exactly. Not what he wanted, but his employers did want that and so he agreed. The comms is a level deeper. Harbaugh was not in agreement.
February 9th, 2024 at 4:59 AM ^
If that’s how you interpret “Harbaugh decided” that’s on you I guess…
February 9th, 2024 at 7:56 AM ^
If you believe everything said in a press release is the uncolored truth, that's on you I guess.
February 9th, 2024 at 10:13 AM ^
I think this is the same type language used when a coach and team announce that they've mutually agreed to part ways..... but the preceding conversations is more like, "we're going to fire you, unless you want to agree to leave"
February 8th, 2024 at 10:43 PM ^
I have a feeling Harbaugh took one for the team. It showed the confidence he had in his team and the coaches. Admin did not stand by him. Period.
February 8th, 2024 at 11:24 PM ^
And now the part about him sitting out those games to avoid missing the Texas game looks stupid because he is no longer working at Michigan.
February 9th, 2024 at 12:44 AM ^
SEC and OSU report dozens of level 2 violations daily, How many coaches and admins are suspended for said violations…crickets!
February 9th, 2024 at 5:06 AM ^
That’s really just not true… 99% of the self reported violations we hear about are Level III and aren’t committed by the head coach.
February 9th, 2024 at 6:06 AM ^
Given the rules historically applied by the TRO court, if Michigan/Harbaugh didn't win an immediate TRO then they were never going to get a TRO. Therefore, once there was no immediate TRO granted, it is time to go to Plan B which is drop the TRO and move on. There was nothing else to consider, not the playoffs, not Texas. Drop the TRO and move on with the travesty. What Michigan/Harbaugh got was a non-binding (there is always something new to go after) agreement to close the Big 10 investigation/false grievance.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:14 PM ^
No, no, no. He has always dreamed of winning the Super Bowl. What Tom Mars describes is pretty bad, but U of M never could have retained him anyway! Why can’t Tom Mars just savor the National Championship?
/s, all the /s in the world.
February 8th, 2024 at 11:50 PM ^
Jim deserved so much better. Shake my dang head.
February 9th, 2024 at 6:04 AM ^
1st rule of politics. Crush your opponent in the court of public opinion whether true or not. Those assholes controlled the narrative through Days buddy Thamel.
February 9th, 2024 at 8:29 AM ^
Gosh, and people wonder why he left!
This is literally deflategate all over again. You grant them final arbitration and expect competitive fairness…psshhaaww.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:07 PM ^
MGoLawyers - anyone care to opine on legal grounds that a coach and administration might rely on to refuse to cooperate with such a request…and to push back on any sanctions issued as a result?
February 8th, 2024 at 9:20 PM ^
The NCAA doesn't have subpoena power in the same way a court does - they can't compel a school or individual to disclose information. It's up to the school and individual to deal with the fallout from that decision to not provide the info, but as we saw with SignGate you can take them to court if you want to.
Now, I will say this about Tom Mars - he's never met a microphone he won't talk to or camera he won't throw himself in front of. He's playing this request a bit to rile up the cheap seats - any party looking for information is going to want the broadest access possible. I'm sure when he's requested info from opposing parties he's done the same. There's a reason they tell employees to not mix personal and professional uses on devices and accounts.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:24 PM ^
The NCAA is requesting from his personal email and devices though. Not sure how the separation would have helped.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:32 PM ^
I suspect the problem is he used his personal phone and accounts to conduct official business, which is why they're seeking access. Again, it's a screenshot of a heavily redacted email Mars sent to an investigator; I'm sure there's a ton of context missing.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:49 PM ^
What Mars explains is that NCAA can ask for whatever it wants and if a coach refuses, it constitutes failure to cooperate with the investigation. Harbaugh (or whoever it was) was required to hand over a full download of his personal phone; all his texts, photos, and everything else, regardless of whether it had anything to do with business. That’s far too much power for any organization to have. No wonder Harbaugh seems so happy to be done with the baggage college football carries with it.
February 8th, 2024 at 11:27 PM ^
I wonder if the level I charge of Harbaugh not being forthcoming with the burgergate investigation had to do with him refusing a ridiculous request.
February 9th, 2024 at 12:02 AM ^
I think it is highly probable.
February 9th, 2024 at 10:14 AM ^
Again, this is Mars' framing. If the NCAA generally asked for everyone's personal phone and machines without reason for all investigations we'd hear about it way more often; I still contend that Harbaugh likely mixed the two and that's why the NCAA is asking for access to it. I'm sure they'll frame it as failure to cooperate because it is a failure to cooperate, and schools and people (like Harbaugh) should tell the NCAA to fuck right off. But I must stress again that Tom Mars is Harbaugh's attorney and as such will zealously advocate for his client's position and frame everything in the most favorable context for his client. Maybe this is the egregious overreach he's painting it as, which given Harbaugh leaving for the NFL makes their requests a moot point. And the NCAA doesn't have subpeona power and this is all voluntary even with the "failure to cooperate" sword hanging there. But objectively if you're trying to figure out if someone broke a rule and you suspect they did the breaking on a private device you have a reasonable expectation to request access. If you broke a school rule but did it on your private devices they'd sure as shit want access to that when doing their investigation.
February 9th, 2024 at 10:36 AM ^
If the police want to look through your phone because they’re investigating a crime, they need your consent or a Search Warrant based on probable cause, signed by a judge. And even if they get that, whether they can actually get into the phone is based on the capability of technology being able to do so, which isn’t a given. You’re not required to supply your code. While it’s true that NCAA violations can’t result in criminal penalties, the penalties they can impose can be substantial. You seem to be arguing that Mars is likely exaggerating, which I guess means you believe the NCAA is more reasonable than he’s claiming. Based on the NCAA’s track record, I’m siding with Mars on this one.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:40 PM ^
The redactions are: [a third party digital forensics company] x 2; [the coach/coach's/the coach's] x 8; [the university/university] x 2; [the state] x 1; [state court] x 1; [redacted] x 1.
So, Kroll (or some other forensics company); Harbaugh; University of Michigan; Michigan; Michigan state court; and redacted. Not exactly a difficult Wheel of Fortune puzzle here.
February 8th, 2024 at 11:20 PM ^
Lawyer here. If the NCAA requested these through discovery (which is how you "ask" for documents from the other side in litigation), there would be a lot of hemming-and-hawing and steps taken to ensure only relevant texts were shared. There would also be a confidentiality order and the court would rain holy hell down a party that leaked any info like that found in discovery.
But we're not in a civil trial, we're in a NCAA investigation. Speaking super generally, unless it's a violation of privacy or other law (and I doubt it, but this isn't my field and I defer to others more expert), a court wouldn't intervene to quash this request or any subsequent punishment for failing to comply. In general, courts don't get involved in organizational internal affairs unless the organization violated its legal strictures (i.e. the bylaws / contract that govern, as a matter of law, the relationships between the organization and its members). It's totally imaginable to me that the court says these actions (i.e. disclose-or-sanction) are consistent with the NCAA's governing documents and accordingly wouldn't intervene.
February 8th, 2024 at 11:49 PM ^
If the NCAA can use the (implied or explicit) threat of sanctions to compel disclosure of information that is irrelevant to whatever rules it is attempting to enforce - particularly personal information - this seems rather problematic. I would hope there would be some legal recourse at either the state or federal level.
Clearly some body has to be granted the authority to determine what information is and is not relevant to an investigation. I guess the NCAA could in theory be both impartial and disinterested - and therefore in an appropriate position to make such a determination. But in practice (and perhaps even by design) it seems that it is neither.
February 9th, 2024 at 8:37 AM ^
This…the end.
Never agree to these rules again…same for all schools…you could actually have an enemy on the enforcement wing of this band of pirates.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:09 PM ^
The NCAA is a paper tiger gasping for it's last breath.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:09 PM ^
The NCAA needs to be disbanded and the schools should join together and set up their own governing body.
Imagine a dick bag like Stapleton, who hates you, rummaging through every private message you have sent to your close friends and family. It’s not like the NCAA has shown any concern to leak information to the public.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:17 PM ^
At one point they did set up their own governing body: the NCAA
February 8th, 2024 at 9:18 PM ^
The NCAA needs to be disbanded and the schools should join together and set up their own governing body.
You forgot the /s
February 8th, 2024 at 10:14 PM ^
The NCAA needs to be disbanded and the schools should join together and set up their own governing body.
Not sure if this is satire, but that’s quite literally what the NCAA is…
February 9th, 2024 at 8:38 AM ^
Quiet he’s on a roll.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:42 PM ^
What this guys is saying is right. The Big Ten and SEC need to come together and tell the ncaa to F off in regards to football and basketball. These are the rules we are playing by. The ncaa can rule all other sports.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:55 PM ^
The SEC teams only get punished if they arent living up to expectations. Florida and Tennessee are fucked. The constant 1 and 2 recruiting juggernauts have zero worries though.
February 8th, 2024 at 10:56 PM ^
I actually like where your going with that idea and it does make sense outside of the SEC having anything to do with enforcing rules. However, I would love to hear if that would violate Title IX or not. It certainly sounds like it would.
February 9th, 2024 at 1:26 AM ^
Read title 9. It wouldn't. Also, the supreme Court is very skeptical of title 9 as currently implemented. Title nine only refers to education and once they are employees it's entirely irrelevant.
February 8th, 2024 at 11:15 PM ^
Like the new SEC/B1G coalition... breakaway fully from the NCAA. I'm in
February 8th, 2024 at 9:17 PM ^
This is the kind of thing that leads to every email in the organization auto including "cc: lawyers"
February 8th, 2024 at 10:23 PM ^
He, a fellow OU student at the time, wasn’t wrong.
Brian Bosworth for the win
February 8th, 2024 at 10:34 PM ^
I always liked that guy
February 8th, 2024 at 11:54 PM ^
The Dr Pepper Sheriff knows
February 8th, 2024 at 9:25 PM ^
I heard that Warde Manuel secretly created the NCAA around the same time that he faked the moon landing.
February 8th, 2024 at 9:26 PM ^
Mars is playing a bit of the victim here - the NCAA seemingly asked for access to accounts and devices used by the person being investigated, and (I assume, knowing human beings) they included the private phone/accounts because the person mixed uses there. I may be wrong but if it's Harbaugh I have an easy time believing he has multiple cell phones and likely has his personal and school accounts mixed across them, and so that becomes fair game.
Now the NCAA doesn't have subpoena power here, and so Harbaugh or UM could tell them to pound sand. There would likely be repercussions to those actions but so be it. But like all good lawyers they're going to go digging as deep as I can to find evidence, something Mars would do (and likely has done) when he's looking for evidence. That's how the game is played, and it's up to a third party fact finder or arbiter to decide what is relevant and what isn't.
I think the NCAA should be set on fire tomorrow, but Mars clutching pearls here is also a bunch of theatre.