Interesting article comparing Harbaugh to Ton Osborne/John Cooper
Details struggles each former coach had against their rival and how Osborne overcame them but Cooper did not.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:18 PM ^
thanks a tom
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:00 PM ^
Yeah I saw that, interesting correlation..and I dont disagree with it too much. Bottom line, we are a really solid team, we are in the B1G East, we are stuck here, and OSU is a fuckin juggernaut. New normal....what you gonna do you know?
No new HC will change that
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:02 PM ^
Agree. I'd much rather deal with trying to overcome OSU than what we experienced before JH got here.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:20 PM ^
But OSU isn’t the only team we lose to...
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:10 PM ^
Yeah i agree, but not on the regular like OSU. Case in point, PSU, off and on with them, same with Wsicy... Its OSU and everyone else in the B1G and we have our way with the rest, as some of them do the same to us form time to time.
Not one person, or one thing will change that story line
So....keep getting at it, keep fighting for recruits, keep getting faster...catch a good year and beat them, that's where we are at my dude.
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:05 PM ^
It's good to be disappointed we're only
- 3-2 against PSU
- 3-2 against MSU
- 2-2 against Wisky
- 1-1 against ND
- 1-3 in bowls
And then there's 0-5
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:39 PM ^
I mean those are Michigan's peers now - it makes sense the record is split. It wasn't too long ago under Rich Rod and Hoke we were getting blown in out against all 4 of the above. Not to mention 1-3 in bowls as well
December 2nd, 2019 at 10:03 PM ^
And in that there's a year of JOK / too young Peters. We were still gonna lose to Penn State, but not too hard to imagine being 4-1/5-0 vs MSU and 3-1 vs Wisconsin. Gotta keep improving, but I'll take it right now vs starting over again
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:11 PM ^
Correct because we are not the very best team in college football, and therefore lose some games. Every school loses games. Even Ohio state (usually) blows a game or two they shouldn’t.
Strive to get better every day. Onward and upward.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:39 PM ^
Harbaugh is 9-7 against Penn State, Michigan State, Wisconsin and Notre Dame and 0-5 against Ohio State...so yeah they are the only team we regularly lose to.
December 3rd, 2019 at 10:35 AM ^
But it is the only team we lose to more often than not. Harbaugh doesn't have a losing record against any teams he's played more than once - and only Utah is 1-0 against him - except OSU.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:03 PM ^
Oh boy, I cannot wait to see the Nebraska hate spill on this one.....
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:45 PM ^
Can MODS ban this troll ?
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:49 PM ^
You're really pathetic, you know? I mean, you spend your precious time on here, just trolling. Really, man... why? What can you possibly get from any of this? Do you feel like a good human being?
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:13 PM ^
The John Cooper comparison annoys me to no end. Cooper had top ranked Buckeye teams with top ranked recruiting classes that would go 10-1 and lose to 9-3/8-4 Michigan teams.
Harbaugh has 9-3/10-2 type Michigan teams that lose to 11-1/12-0 type OSU teams.
It's not the same scenario
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:18 PM ^
Yep...Cooper had more talented teams than Tressel. OSU could have won 3 or 4 national championships with Cooper, but underdog Michigan teams ruined their seasons.
Meyer, then imported the SEC model and they now have even more talent than ever. Meyer may have left a couple national titles on the table given how much talent he brought in, but it was obviously never due to UM screwing over their season.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:04 PM ^
The thing Cooper never really had was a stud QB. Who was the best, Hoying? Germaine?
Since Troy Smith, however, OSU has had a dynamic QB every year except 2007. (The game they scored only 14 against Michigan.)
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:19 PM ^
This is spot on. OSU often had the better team with Cooper, but he rarely if ever had an advantage at quarterback. That changed with Troy Smith, and OSU has, with the exception of 2011, had the better QB (if we're including health in our analysis) every year since.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:43 PM ^
Not entirely true. Ohio State was down when Cooper came on; Michigan was almost certainly the better team for his first five years (0-4-1 against Michigan). Looking back I'm kind of surprised he kept his job long enough to get good.
From 1993 to 1998, though, he had three undefeated teams get beaten by Michigan and the 11-1 1998 team that did beat Michigan but were upset by Michigan State.
In 1999 and 2000 they were down, Michigan beat him both years and they fired him.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:20 PM ^
Fair, but when people bring up Cooper, they don't mention the early or late 90s - they mention the '93, '95, '96, '97 games
December 3rd, 2019 at 1:53 PM ^
Cooper never really outrecruited Michigan till Moeller was let go, then the recruiting started picking up. Moeller was a fantastic recruiter, only Bowden did better wrt top-10 classes.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:05 PM ^
Thanks for writing this as this has been my take whenever I hear someone bring this up. The only thing they have in common is a losing streak in the rivalry to start their career which has happened to a lot of coaches.
I am hoping for the Dabo Swinney comparison years from now. Dabo started 1-5 vs South Carolina and 2-5 vs FSU before turning both rivalries around.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:16 PM ^
yeah but with PEDs and $$$$ -- neither of which UM is going to lean into...
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:45 PM ^
Allow me to point out the obvious - 1 and 2 are not 0. If Harbaugh had a win over Ohio St right now - any win - this would be a different conversation. And I know about the spot and that we got screwed. It unfortunately still counts as a loss.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:19 PM ^
Not beating Ohio State isn't a Harbaugh problem. It's a Ohio State is really fucking good problem. Michigan football becomes a lot more enjoyable once you except that The Game is a probable annual loss.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:46 PM ^
That's pretty much it. osu has lost more than 2 games once in the last 10 years - the anomolous 6-7 2011 season.
They've lost to Purdue (x1), Oklahoma (x1), Iowa (x1), Penn State (x1), Clemson (x2), msu (x2), VT (x1), and Wisconsin (x1).
They've only lost more than once to msu (at the height of Mork's reign) and Clemson. Otherwise, it's been one-hit wonders outside of 2011.
That's just a dang good team.
In the past 10 seasons:
- Alabama has 15 losses
- osu has 17 losses, including the 7-loss 2011 campaign
- Clemson has 22 losses, but since they started their run in 2012 (8 seasons ago), they have 11 losses
- Michigan has 17 losses in the past FIVE seasons
Would we rather be Auburn, averaging 7-5 with a truly elite season every decade or so?
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:17 PM ^
Auburn won the SEC in 2017 while beating Alabama, and just beat Alabama again and has the same record as us...and we never have elite seasons.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:32 PM ^
Brian said Michigan is Auburn without the luck and I'm inclined to agree with him.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:04 PM ^
If it weren't for luck and Braxton Miller overthrowing a wide open Davier Posey in 2011 we would be on a 16 game losing streak to OSU.
Also in order for lucky plays to happen you have to actually be in the game late. 3 blowouts in 5 years.
December 3rd, 2019 at 10:54 AM ^
I agree as well, I mean Auburn's game against Bama on Saturday wasn't that much different than Michigan/OSU in terms of Alabama moving the ball with ease all day, Auburn just got two pick sixes to help stay in the game. Also they got the benefit of Alabama's star QB being out.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:52 PM ^
I can’t accept that, exactly. This season was less enjoyable with that probability in mind. But that fact does affect my reasoning when considering how much I would desire to change in the off-season.
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:06 PM ^
Kinda where I'm at. Like...I do accept that Michigan is going to lose to Ohio State annually at this point, but it doesn't make the season enjoyable. In fact, it does the opposite because Michigan sees itself as an elite program, but they can never achieve the goals that an elite program should have. They can't make a conference title game, they can't make the CFP, and more often than not, they are going to be left out of the NY6 bowls.
So given all of that...what's the point of the season? Fight hard and get to the Citrus/Outback Bowl? Maybe have a really good season and make one of the NY6 Bowls?
December 3rd, 2019 at 10:14 AM ^
Once you accept the fact that Michigan is not--and has not been for much of its history--an elite program, the season becomes a lot more enjoyable.
December 3rd, 2019 at 9:12 AM ^
I don't think losing to OSU will ever not hurt. What I mean is the specter of OSU looming at the end of the season ruins enjoyment of the preceeding games because even in wins, "that's not good enough to beat OSU" is in the back of your head. Once you accept that probably nothing Michigan can show earlier in the season means they'll beat OSU, then it's easier to enjoy the victories.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:53 PM ^
A expanded playoff could help overcome the OSU problem to a point. Five star players want to get in the NFL and be in the playoff. Your best bet for that to happen is to go to Ohio State, Alabama or Clemson. You can argue against this all you want to recruits but the stats don’t lie.
An expanded playoff of 8 to 12 teams would help break down this advantage for the top 3 to 4 teams
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:22 PM ^
8 is enough. Michigan still wouldn’t make it. Harbaugh has yet to prove he can beat good teams on the road not named Northwestern.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:58 PM ^
Michigan would have made it in 2016, maybe 2018 as well.
As for impressive road wins, I guess Ryan Day has yet to prove it either. His best road win is over Michigan, who I've heard isn't a good team.
It's hard to get good road wins when everyone sucks after they lose to you.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:38 PM ^
A 10-2 team that got their doors blown off by their rival is not even making an 8 team playoff nor should they
December 3rd, 2019 at 2:49 PM ^
Yeah I agree but the problem is if you expand to 8, some years you run out of teams who haven't suffered a bad loss or several close losses.
I don't think the 'rival' part would make a difference to the committee.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:40 PM ^
Pete Caroll had Harbaughs number the last couple of years in the Pro's.
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:45 PM ^
To this point, OSU was without Shawn Wade who will be a 1st round corner. We took advantage, but their talent and depth is absurd.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:05 PM ^
And this post right here is part of the problem.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:06 PM ^
That's basically what the article is saying about Osborne
December 3rd, 2019 at 8:23 AM ^
I will never accept as fact that Michigan will lose to OSU annually, nor do I think the team will accept that. That screams loser mentality - there would never be any improvement, or desire to improve, if one accepts that premise. That's what losers do.
Stiffen up, Reshp! Take a loss like a man, identify the exploited weak spots and fix them. Repeat as necessary until the wins come. They will come because everything is cyclical. There will come a time again when OSU is the OSU we know and love - the one that loses this game most often. Hopefully that happens really soon!
(*Series record: 58-51-6, Michigan)
December 3rd, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
Exactly - hard to believe OSU is undefeated since Harbaugh showed up - nobody can beat them!
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:25 PM ^
The dominant power in the Big Ten from 1933 through 1941 was Minnesota, which won or tied for seven conference championships and won five national championships, all under Bernie Bierman.
From 1933 through the 1942 season, under Harry Kipke and and the sainted Fritz Crisler, Michigan went 0-9-1 against Bierman's Gophers. Crisler's share of that was a gaudy 0-5 mark. It wasn't until after Bierman left Minnesota for WWII military service that Michigan finally notched a victory against Minnesota's interim replacement for Bierman in 1943.
Bierman returned to Minnesota in '45, but by then the balance of power had shifted and the Gophers never finished higher than 3rd in the conference before he retired in 1950.
December 2nd, 2019 at 7:47 PM ^
Are you trying to say that UM needs WWIII in order to overcome OSU?
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:25 PM ^
Read this today as well. It’s quite clear when you take OSU out of the equation, Jim’s the best coach we’ve had. He’s off to a better start than Bo, Lloyd, or Gary.
While OSU is extremely important of a rivalry, it has to be noted that Jim has completely turned this program from consistently mediocre to winning as a top 15 program every year. The talent gap with OSU will continue until something is done about the compensation of players’ families at some schools and Michigan getting off its high horse to do what it takes to land top talent.
I, for one, am EXTREMELY happy with Jim. Better than the feelings I had Between 2007-2014
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:40 PM ^
This morning, I put it like this to someone, "If you're drinking MORE during the Harbaugh era to date than you did during the Rodriguez / Hoke years, you're either very young, new to drinking, or you didn't pay attention."