How many ELITE college football coaches are there? Who would you put in the next two tiers?
Questions for the board (a genuine question, so we can leave Harbaugh talk out, this isn't about any one coach)...
How many truly elite college football coaches do you think there are? Even if they're not currently coaching college football (i.e. Meyer or Stoops - not saying either goes in this category, only saying that that don't have to be active CFB coaches). An elite coach is likely someone who could go damn near anywhere today any make the team a national contender.
After that group, who would you put in the next tier? This could possibly be coaches who are GREAT where they are, but you can't put in the top group and if you moved them...maybe they don't have the same success, but there awesome in their current situations.
Finally, one more tier? Maybe a few questions or concerns, but coaches you'd have outside of your top 2 tiers. You'll still take these guys over most coaches in the country.
Tier 1- Saban, Dabo
Tier 2- Riley, Brian Kelly, Day, Jimbo Fisher, Kirby Smart
Tier 3- Chryst, Gundy, Mullins
Would add Campbell in the second tier with the caveat he has yet to win a major program were expectations are much higher. Maybe add the former head coach of Washington.
I’m not entirely sure i understand the Campbell love. If you’re going to act like he’s so great for beating Oklahoma then why aren’t you scared of the fact that he can’t beat Iowa? Or Louisiana Lafayette?
”he’s beaten every big 12 team.” That’s not really a compliment either. Have you seen that conference and the coaches there?
This foolishness that Campbell isn't one of the best coaches in America right now needs to end. There was once another coach in the Big 8 who had a pretty mediocre record at Oklahoma State:
7-4
3-7-1
7-5
2-5-1
8-4
That guy only went on to win a national championship and two superbowls, Jimmy Johnson. Not taking into context the record compared to how the program has been historically is not doing enough homework.
Let's look at a certain Nick Saban's record at MSU:
6-5-1
6-6
7-5
6-6
9-2
I’m not entirely sure i understand the Campbell love
- Because Campbell wins
- Because Campbell does more with less
- Because Campbell occasionally wins game people weren't expecting that team to win
- Because Campbell coaches his players up.
I know it's been 14 years since we've seen that at Michigan. Perhaps that's why these concepts have become foreign to some.
It's been more than 14 years.
I agree. But I didn't want to start a post-'97 Carr pissing contest.
So I just went back to 2007 for reference.
Why? Campbell is a great coach. Took a bottom feeder and created a competitive team that challenged Oklahoma for their conference championship. Think of the inferior resources and recruits he has...winning under those conditions is impression.
im not implying nor think Campbell should be Michigan’s coach over harbaugh. For example, if harbaugh didn’t turn around a dormant Stanford program, he doesn’t get NFL interest. I’m sure NFL teams thought I’d Harbaugh can make Stanford a contender what can he do with best in class facilities ?
I'd be shocked if Stanford's athletic facilities are not equal to or better than the 49ers.
Prepare to be shocked. For the 49ers, they aren’t called athletic facilities, they are just “the facilities.”
Smart stinks, he has same problem as JH can’t develop a qb. He has incredible talent and does nothing with it
At least Smart won the SEC and made a national championship game. That's more than Richt ever did.
April 11th, 2021 at 10:08 PM ^
And Richt had consistently better quarterback play too!
April 11th, 2021 at 10:48 PM ^
If you can gas those records for Saban and Johnson, and then shit on Harbaugh's record at UM, I got a problem with you.
April 11th, 2021 at 11:49 PM ^
Am I missing something? Are you comparing Michigan to Oklahoma State or MSU historically?
April 12th, 2021 at 12:11 PM ^
Last 20 years
Oke State 163-81(Gundy 137-67, .701)
Sparty 149-96(Dantonio 114-57, .667)
Michigan 159-90(Harbaugh 49-22, .690)
Recent history says the programs are very similar and so are these coaches success rates.
I dont care about the last 20 years only, why would Michigan measure it's level of success on two of its worst decades in its history?
April 12th, 2021 at 10:50 AM ^
You'd really put Lincoln Riley and Brian Kelly in the same tier? Lmfao
April 12th, 2021 at 12:59 PM ^
I realize that Kelly has been to a championship game and to the BCS semis (2x I believe). That said, I wonder what his record would have been in the Big 10 east. Against Michigan (both under Harbaugh and before) he's generally held serve at home and lost on the road. If he were in the east, I really doubt he'd beat Ohio State ever without a some luck, and I suspect that they'd drop another game here or there to Penn State, Wisconsin, Iowa etc. My point is that I'm just not sure that when you adjust for difficulty that his record has been much better than ours has been over the last 6-7 years.
Saban.
But guys like Monken and Lavell Edwards are/were amazing per their respective schools!
Harbaugh is a great coach!
"Harbaugh is a great coach"? You cannot be serious. Recognizing the ugly truth is better than perpetuating a beautiful lie. Michigan is an elite PROGRAM with a washed up, outdated coach who likely has a combination of CTE and ADHD that affects his ability to reasonate and communicate with his substandard TEAM. I have been an avid Michigan fan and alum for 51 years, and I cannot recall a season where I have had lesser expectations (and less optimism) than this upcoming season, and its all because of Harbaugh. Harbaugh has brought UM to the point where it looks up to Iowa as a more consistent football team, and that's pathetic.
Message board diagnoses of brain injury and mental disorders are bad.
But you have to give him props for "reasonate". Humanity needs this word.
It sounds like it's time for you to find another team to root for, that you can stick with through thick and thin.
"A straggling few got up to go, in deep despair. The rest
clung to that hope which springs eternal in the human breast."
Gtfoh who’s a better fit? Seriously?
i think the bigger question is could any of the elite coaches duplicate their body of work at.Michigan???
Saban wouldn't have probably the greatest dynasty in the history of the sport like he does now, but absolutely he could have won national championships at Michigan.
Either Saban would have put a flame-thrower to the entire athletic department to get what he felt he needed to compete for a national title or he never would entertain the thought of coaching at Michigan.
Saban was ~.500 at MSU until his fifth year when he posted a 9-2 record. His record at LSU was/is similar to Harbaugh's at Michigan with the exception of a 13-1 National Championship season in 2003, which is sort of a big deal. He was again ~.500 at Miami in the NFL. Now, his time at Alabama has nearly made them forget Bear Bryant, existed. He's obviously a very good coach, but I think he has numerous unfair advantages at Alabama and at LSU before that. They are talent-rich recruiting grounds and the schools undoubtedly think that players should be paid and laid. No one seems to care about gray shirting anymore, but Saban also took advantage of any rules he could whenever he could. Sour grapes yada yada, but with the amount of talent he has gotten he should have won more national championships. He is an elite coach and a definite Hall of Famer, but I think the stars aligned for him at Alabama specifically.
Saban gets the best recruits because he wins no matter what he has. Implying he only wins because he gets the best talent is completely inaccurate.
He turned around a Toledo program and won the MAC in one year.
He inherited a program in MSU that was on probation from Perles, but still managed to recruit some great talent in Plaxico Burress, Julian Peterson, TJ Duckett, and Renaldo Hill.
He won the SEC in a huge upset over #2 Tennessee his second year and won a national championship at LSU his fourth year. LSU had only won the SEC four times since their national championship year in 1958 before Saban won it in 2001. LSU wasnt some powerhouse.
He went 12-2 his second year at Alabama with Mike Shulas recruits and won the national championship his third year also with Mike Shulas recruits. Who wouldnt want to come play for him after that?
April 11th, 2021 at 10:59 PM ^
Saban should have won more championships? Dude, they dominate college football. They don't have down years. You can't win every year, especially when 1 or 2 losses knocks you out. Who has done anything remotely like Saban has? Urban couldn't keep it going at Florida. The fact that he's gone through so many coordinators and hasn't skipped a beat is incredible. Sure he has advantages with talent and all, but it's still very impressive.
April 12th, 2021 at 12:07 AM ^
He's won 7 National championships in the last 21 years, so I'm being a bit facetious about Saban having under performed, but he's had the #1 class for the majority of those years. A two-loss year is an underperforming year when you have that much talent.
That's why people are pissy about Harbaugh. OSU should beat us every year with the talent differential and they do. Harbaugh should be able to steal some of those games. Michigan should beat MSU, WI and maybe PSU every year with the talent differential, but we haven't been.
Urban Meyer could have kept it going at Florida if his wife hadn't caught him cheating with co-eds or whatever his health problem were. Given Urban's performance at BG, Utah, Florida and Ohio State, I'd say he is a much better coach than Saban. He just had his scumbaggery catch up to him.
Saban also doesn't have nearly the same media scrutiny that other schools get, so he's allowed to get away with things. Meanwhile, Harbaugh tries things, within the rules, to garner interest in Michigan football and even the Tappan Middle School newspaper takes him to task.
To answer your question: Saban and Meyer - maybe. They both did very well at every school they have been at, across multiple conferences and eras.
Everyone else - it's a coinflip at best. Taking a program from good to great takes more than just being a good coach, you need a lot of luck too. No one thinks Ed Orgeron can do what he did to win a CFP at LSU at any other school, but he got a fortunate set of circumstances - an all-time QB, great OC, and slightly down year at Alabama and turned it into a trophy. Swinney has done better using the same formula - find an NFL QB, have a top-tier assistant (Venables), and take advantage of not having strong competition in-conference, and you can get into the Playoff.
Bad news: it's pretty clear that Harbaugh isn't the program-builder we thought he would be and OSU hasn't gifted us an opportunity yet. On the bright side, I think we're still close enough that there's a chance we can put together an LSU 2019, MSU 2015 type season. Even if we do, it's clear that would not be sustainable over time.
April 12th, 2021 at 11:20 AM ^
If Orgeron left the bayou nobody would understand him. Can’t coach if you can’t communicate.
April 12th, 2021 at 11:37 AM ^
Saban MAYBE. Meyer no.
Saban needs an ecosystem that's on his same wavelength (absolute lack of regard to recruiting rules). I'm sure his ability to self-critique would work anywhere - the dude is incredible at understanding when the game is changing and when he needs to change his style. But Michigan's athletic department and boosters aren't Alabama's. He'd catch hell for, for instance, starting Jalen Hurts, and again for benching Hurts.
Meyer...remember the rumors that Urban was a serious contender for the ND job, but one of his conditions was that he got a no-questions-asked admission or two every year, and ND wouldn't go for it so he "turned them down." Urban is an exceptional coach, but again the support system he needs doesn't exist at Michigan. Florida and Ohio State were happy to just barely pretend to take academics seriously. That wouldn't fly at Michigan (not at THAT level).
Michigan has a serious problem of Bo worship IMO. Too many rich, powerful alumni who won't let Michigan change. Imagine if OSU would only allow themselves to hire Woody disciples and run Woody offenses. Our ONE foray into trying to modernize (RichRod) was undermined from the start, and of course RichRod had his own fatal flaws, but after that experiment ended it's like Michigan decided to stop even trying to keep up with the times. The last Michigan coach to be part of his times was Lloyd Carr in the late 90s. And he stopped innovating too.
No, they wouldn't be able to quite replicate their success, because Michigan has built-in, self-imposed institutional disadvantages, especially regarding transfers in an era where the transfer portal is becoming more and more important.
This is also one reason why none of them would come here.
How so? He doesn't even state his own opinion. It's just a conversation starter and it's the offseason.
1. Saban
2. Big gap
3. Retired Urban and Dabo
4. Big group of coaches from top 25 programs
5. Rest of the field.
Harbaugh falls in group 4.
Saban is in a league of his own. Would build a dynasty at any $EC school. Made MSU competitive when UM was still an elite program. Urban and Dabo are great, but not Saban level, as he has kept adapting and changing coaches, scheme, and philosophy.
Saban has won with defense, he's won with a running game, he's won with offense, he's won with an electric passing game. OSU gets similar level recruits and plays in an easier conference but can't replicate what Saban produces...he's the standard.
April 12th, 2021 at 12:33 PM ^
I think Dabo needs to be Dabo-Venables, just like Virginia Techs heyday wasn't just Frank Beamer, it was Beamer & Bud Foster. Having an entrenched, elite DC like that is invaluable
It makes what Saban does all the more impressive as his staff is a revolving door it seems and they just keep finding ways to be elite
Tier 1: Saban and Meyer. They would win anywhere and consistently.
Tier 2: Too much time to think about this tier and it changes from year to year but one would be Matt Campbell at Iowa State.
Meyer is no Saban. He's great, but a level below. Saban is a finisher. Meyer left a lot on the table at OSU given the dominant classes he was bringing in.
He was stubborn with his system - they won a championship at OSU in spite of his preferred scheme when Cardale Jones was forced to come in and open up a downfield passing game instead of running his QB to death.
Saban has won in more ways and shown more flexibility than any coach in modern college football.
April 11th, 2021 at 11:35 PM ^
All things equal (let's say they're both 50 years old), I'd rather have Urban coach Michigan if I had my choice between the two. Saban has accomplished more, and he's a bigger force at Alabama -- but I'd be more confident in Meyer coming into a struggling program and turning it into a powerhouse. His offensive system is just perfect for college football. I think he can do more with less. Saban can do more with SEC recruiting and so forth, but I'm not sure he'd have the same impact at Notre Dame or Michigan. I'm not taking a shot a him being dirty, I'm just saying the recruiting and everything is different.
April 12th, 2021 at 10:03 AM ^
You're right about Meyer not being very adaptive with how he wanted his QBs to play.
Around Detroit, on sports radio, callers say they don't want the Lions to draft Justin Fields because he's an OSU QB and they haven't had NFL success.
To my mind, the common thing that has hindered them is being Meyer's QB's. The only one that Meyer coached in college that has had any NFL success is Alex Smith, who Meyer had at Utah. Meyer seemed to emphasize running ability over downfield accuracy and reading of defenses.
I think that Fields will be a very good NFL QB. Day let him throw the ball downfield and read defenses. What's also going to be fascinating is what kind of offense Meyer is going to run in the NFL.
Saban’s tenure at MSU thinks you are wrong. Urban was given a gift at OSU in terms of a huge talent advantage, those teams seemed to consistently under perform. Both are great coaches, but both found ideal situations that helped them tremendously.
April 11th, 2021 at 10:03 PM ^
Saban won a national title at LSU as well and left Les Miles with a dominant program that won a national title a few years later. What he had inherited at LSU was a middling SEC program at the time.
At Bama, Saban inherited a middling, underachieving blue blood Bama program and built the current dynasty.
Meyer built Utah and Florida into dominant programs including 2 national titles at UF. He inherited a ton of talent and a football machine at OSU that he took to the next level, yet they never reached Bama level dynasty despite recruiting at a similarly elite level.
All things equal, Saban is the standard.
April 11th, 2021 at 10:05 PM ^
Saban had those Spartys on the rise until they ran into the 1997 juggernaut that was UM. Then he cut for LSU. I think it is pretty hard to say that he's not the GOAT of College Football coaches at this point. Not sure there are many metrics you can measure a college coach by (wins, win %, recruiting classes, NFL draftees, average ranking, Conference, Playoff, and Natty wins, rivalry wins, etc.). He's also done it at 2 different P5 schools, in a tough conference (not like Dabo whos done what he's done in the ACC). Yeah, he didn't turn MSU into a Nation Champ. contender but that might be more MSU's incompetence than Saban's. Belichick didn't take the Browns or Jets to the Super Bowl, I don't think that means he's not an elite coach.
April 11th, 2021 at 10:25 PM ^
Michigan State also lost some scholarships because of NCAA penalties incurred during the George Perles era. In retrospect, I'd have to say that helped hold Saban back at MSU until 1999.