justin.lang11

September 5th, 2019 at 8:55 AM ^

You would think that someone with such a high moral and spiritual standard, would do whatever he could to run as clean of a program as possible. You know, bags upon bags of money, performance enhancing drugs, etc. This is like the Mob going to Sunday Mass to confess their sins. That makes everything okay,  right?

DrMantisToboggan

September 5th, 2019 at 9:10 AM ^

My unpopular opinion (at least within our fanbase) is that it's not hypocritical of a Christian to pay football players or run afoul of the rules of a silly NGO. The "LOL Dabo cheats, what a fake Christian" line doesn't really work for me, logically. 

Maybe he's not a good Christian. We know he "cheats" the NCAA rules. If the former is true, it's not because of the latter in my book.

justin.lang11

September 5th, 2019 at 9:25 AM ^

My take isn't necessarily saying "Dabo is a fake christian". The problem for me is, that he is putting himself on a pedestal. Claiming to want to mold young men, and show them the light. Teach them how to do the right things. How can you do that and then either knowingly cheat, or turn your back on the cheating? To me that is hypocritical. The rules are the rules, whether you or I agree with them or not. 

I think that its crazy that my 7 year old has homework every SINGLE night, but i'm not going to allow him to not do it, and I am certainly not going to do his homework for him. That to me would not be the right thing to do. I try to teach him to do the right thing everyday, now if I made an exception because I didn't agree with his school, that would be Hypocritical of me. That might not be apples to apples, but I hope it better explains my point. 

AFWolverine

September 5th, 2019 at 9:37 AM ^

I think many people, both Christians and non-Christians, misinterpret what a "good" Christian is supposed to look like. The Puritan way of thinking that so much of American Christianity lives by would say that everything he is doing is wrong. Getting players paid, allowing use of steroids, etc. As my own personal faith has grown, I have come to terms that true Christians don't always follow the law. The countries where Christianity is "strongest" and growing are the countries that have the most restrictive laws oppressing it. Doing the right thing doesn't always mean following the rules. Doing the right thing might mean helping a player's family out by funnelling some money to them. Doing the right thing might mean working the system so that a recruit or player gets a need taken care of. Steroids? That's a different issue and goes against the grain from actually helping someone. 

Phaedrus

September 5th, 2019 at 10:50 AM ^

I understand the argument that “God’s law” trumps the law of the land. But Sweeny isn’t forced to participate in college football. It’s not like a government that he has no choice to live under. He willfully entered a contract in which he promised not to cheat and then he cheated for the sake of his own personal gain. I’m sure that he belongs to some prosperity doctrine that’s okay with all of that, but I also don’t believe that such a doctrine can seriously be considered Christianity. That’s claiming that the religion somehow gives cover to the merchants at the temple. While there’s a lot of room for scriptural interpretation, I don’t think there can be a biblical reading where the merchants in the temple are saints. 

Blue In NC

September 5th, 2019 at 11:32 AM ^

And to me that might mean helping someone in need but also being truthful about what you are doing and not only helping those in a direct position to help you (to the tune of a $8mil contract) but also working to change the system so that everyone can be helped.  It would not be secretly trying to get away with something if you passionately believe what you are doing is right.

DrMantisToboggan

September 5th, 2019 at 9:42 AM ^

And I don’t mean to push back against you personally. I’m speaking more generally against the large swath of our fanbase that likes to use Dabo’s espoused religion to attack his program and him personally.

I understand your point full well and I get it. If you’re (the general “you”) plainly saying that you don’t think Dabo is a man of strong morals, that’s fine. However, the specific action of paying players is not antithetical to the Christian faith in my mind, and I think some in our fanbase just want an excuse to attack Christianity.

I don’t think Dabo runs a clean program, and I don’t think he’s oblivious to the benefits his players receive/have been offered. I think people can call that out without trying to also lampoon his faith.

Jon06

September 5th, 2019 at 9:56 AM ^

If you want to show your kid how to do the right thing, you should tell the 7 year old's teacher that your kid isn't doing any homework. It isn't beneficial for children that young, and you can show the kid that it's ok (and even an important exercise of freedom) to stand up to people in power when they are wrong.

jblaze

September 5th, 2019 at 9:30 AM ^

Is your point that he's breaking man's rules and not God's rules, so it's not relevant to being a good Christian or not? I get that line of thinking. (Full disclaimer am not a Christian and know very little about the religion or any religion for that matter).

But by cheating and breaking the NCAA rules, isn't he hurting other coaches and fanbases? I mean if he pays $300K for guys like Gary, than they don't go to other schools and those teams will lose more games and the coaches will get fired. So he's hurting others by his acts. Is that OK for Good Christians?

DrMantisToboggan

September 5th, 2019 at 9:51 AM ^

That’s close to my point, yes. I think there’s even an argument to be made, depending on how you view things, that the NCAA’s rules are not in line with Jesus’ teachings. I don’t think it would be crazy to make an argument that paying players is actually the Christian thing to do. I think, either way, you have to make a lot of leaps to tie any one coach’s loss of livelihood to another coach’s payment of recruits, when there are so many variables at play. 

mGrowOld

September 5th, 2019 at 9:54 AM ^

FWIW I've read the bible cover to cover.  Can't remember any passages on performance enhancing drugs/steroids but I've got to believe there's a "thou shall not" that covers it somewhere.

IMO Clemson is good not necessarily because of who they've paid but because of what chemicals they've given to who they paid.

I'mTheStig

September 5th, 2019 at 3:57 PM ^

This has been covered many times here... Devin Gardner having a booster's credit card for example.

Hopefully the difference is Michigan didn't give Rashan Gary $300K, or a Cam Newton's dad $180K, or a Reggie Bush's mom a fucking house in SoCal. 

JPC

September 5th, 2019 at 10:33 AM ^

Having talked to people around Clemson SC who know Dabo, he's a genuinely well thought of guy who seems to care about his players. The guy built a huge dorm on the property of his home (which is modest for a dude who makes millions of dollars a year and lives in a dirt cheap area) so his players could stay there.

Clemson is a tiny tiny tiny town and the players are viewed as a respectful part of the community.

SC Wolverine

September 5th, 2019 at 3:18 PM ^

When it comes to moral and religious values, Dabo is quite a lot like our own Coach Harbaugh, although their religions obviously have differences.  When Dabo won his first NC, he gathered the team in the locker room and told them that it was not the most important thing that will happen in their lives.  The day of their marriage will be more important, and the day their first child will be born.  That is something our Jimmy might well say when our day comes.  Clemson undoubtedly has a remarkably evangelical culture and it does start with the coaching staff.  Last spring, I spoke at a gathering of mainly grad assistants and analysts -- young eager guys -- although one member of the coaching staff was also present.  What a great and solid bunch of guys.  But, you may not know, another top football team with a very large evangelical presence is the University of Michigan.  And this is no small thing, I hear, in our ability to recruit top talent out of the South.

As for Dabo paying players -- and, yes, I know the Jennifer Coney story -- I do think it is a major disappointment given their trumpeting of a Christian identity.  I think most people here in SC think that Clemson is paying, but the rationale is that everyone is.  If they are, I think this is wrong.  If you're going to be a public Christian, then you can't put winning ahead of integrity.  I will say this, though, the comparison between Hugh Freeze and Dabo is really unfair and a cheap shot.  Hugh Freeze is a total disgrace without a shred of integrity.  The closer you look at Dabo, you find lots of integrity and the kind of virtue that makes sports valuable.  But if he is proved to be cheating, I make no excuse for him.

mjv

September 6th, 2019 at 11:43 AM ^

In nearly 20 years of dealing with business owners, I've dealt with many that I've come to find out are deeply religious, but only two that put it front and center for everyone to see.  And those two were two of the most corrupt that I've ever dealt with -- deceitful, unethical...

In the 1990s, one of the most successful football programs was Florida State, run by an openly religious head coach, Bobby Bowden.  That program was either the dirties or second dirtiest (depending on how one viewed Miami (YTM)).  

My experience tells me that when someone is pushing their religion to the front, be wary that it is being used as a facade to conceal questionable behavior. 

Clearly this is a small sample size I'm dealing with.