Dickinson, Poole / M Hoops Tidbits
On the eve of the Sweet 16, I came across a couple things of note, maybe not 'thread-worthy' on their own... but combined, they feel like some add-on content that may have appeared in a UV once-upon-a-time.
Sam Vecenie of The Athletic put together a nice little breakdown of some tournament stars and their pro-potential, KC Ndefo, Tyrese Hunter and, of note to Michigan fans, Hunter Dickinson. It's a great article, and you should consider reading the whole thing. Here's some highlights of the Hunter part. For those unfamiliar, Vecenie does a lot of draft stuff and is considered to be a pretty reliable writer.
First some good.
He’s become one of the most impressive offensive forces in the country, a relatively complete big for whom the only real knock on that end given his role is that he’s not the most consistent shooter in the world. He’s only hit 33 percent from 3 this season, and it’s clear teams don’t really respect him from distance given how open they leave him. But I’m not sure teams should leave him that open anymore. I feel like when Dickinson gets a wide-open pick-and-pop 3, there’s a 50-50 shot it’s going down, which is an equation the defense shouldn’t be comfortable with.
He also talks about Dickinsons size and frame as a positive. Ultimately, Vecenie thinks defense will likely be holding Hunter back.
Ultimately, it’s all going to come down to defense, and Dickinson’s defense away from the rim remains a significant work in progress. It’s hard to imagine a world where he wouldn’t get completely and utterly roasted on the perimeter by NBA guards. Most of Kennedy Chandler’s domination in the first 30 minutes of this game had to do with catching Dickinson away from the rim and taking advantage.
On top of that, he’s pretty poor in drop-coverage situations, not really having a great sense of how to contest the gap between the roller and the ballhandler.
The verdict:
For Dickinson to be able to play in the NBA, it is a non-negotiable for him to clean this up. If he doesn’t, he will be playing in Europe as soon as his collegiate career ends (whenever he chooses for that to be). The margin for error for Dickinson is essentially zero. He needs to be able to not get absolutely obliterated outside. Honestly, he just might not have the foot speed to make that work. But if I were advising Dickinson on where he needs to take a step forward the most this summer, it’s in his footwork, his defensive stance and in his overall positioning and awareness in drop-coverage situations. Almost none of it is good right now, and it’s a significant reason why Michigan’s defense is outside of the top 75 nationally.
There's a bunch more in the article, a couple videos that really show his point. And then a few other interesting points. Check it out if you have a sub.
NBA pregame "fits" are a thing. Jordan Poole uses last nights fit to shoutout his Sweet 16 Wolverines while rocking his college jersey. Special shoutout to the MNF intro watchers, this must be slightly orgasmic for you.
Plus this Jalen Tweet
I wonder if Jalen is wearing a Steve & Barry's special there
It's photoshopped over a Miami Hurricanes sweatshirt.
And the 40 is photoshopped over a book of Atlas Shrugged. But I can’t seem to find the original photo.
I assume you're joking because I can't believe anybody would be proud of reading Atlas Shrugged.
Um…😬
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:43 AM ^
Is there some pre-approved list of books that we can be proud of having read, or are you somehow the authority on the topic?
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:46 AM ^
Speak for yourself, Kap. In hindsight I'm proud that I was able to plow through that fucker as a young person. I feel similarly about plowing through a MGD 40 around the same time. See how they're similar?
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:15 PM ^
So... you believe it's better to be less well read and ignorant?
I'm pretty sure I had that same Miami sweatshirt.
Poole wearing a Michigan jersey is orgasmic?
You might need to get out more.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^
Exactly....
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^
ironically - in fact, he might actually need to get IN... more.
March 23rd, 2022 at 12:20 PM ^
About as ironic as an Alanis Morissette song.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:37 AM ^
Ha. This is my nod to the sad souls on here during football season when Devin Bush says his High School instead of verbally proclaiming he is proud to have attended "the University of Michigan."
I can think of other very enigmatic Michigan basketball players, Hunter is surely one of the largest-in every way. I also believe there are solutions here
He's really not enigmatic. He's outstanding on offense and horrible on defense. Consistently so. And the reasons are clear: he's very large and offensively skilled, but he's very unathletic so he's bad on defense. There's really nothing enigmatic about that.
Guys that were far more enigmatic: DJ Wilson (wildly talented but inconsistent until putting it together at the end), Jordan Poole (ditto), Zak Irvin (44% from three as a freshmen, then fell off a cliff), etc etc.
You're right, "conundrum" is the better depiction. In my oldish age my brain goes aphasic sometimes and I know what I want to convey but I simply cannot find the word...so I make a "best guess" :)
Ah yes, that I agree with. He presents a coaching conundrum for sure.
Yassss.
"For Dickinson to be able to play in the NBA, it is a non-negotiable for him to clean this up. If he doesn’t, he will be playing in Europe as soon as his collegiate career ends. But if I were advising Dickinson on where he needs to take a step forward the most this summer, it’s in his footwork, his defensive stance and in his overall positioning and awareness in drop-coverage situations."
Is Dickinson going to be able really "clean this up" in a single summer? Seems to me he'd make more progress in remedying these shortcomings with another year in college.
Yeah, the more interesting question is whether NIL money could be enough to keep Dickinson from going to Europe. I'm an old guy, whose basketball memories go back to Rickey Green. So I cringe whenever an opponent starts a 1-5 pick-and-roll against Dickinson. I don't claim to have any expertise in this, and I can only guess what an NBA scout sees, but I can't believe it's remotely good.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:34 AM ^
Upvoted for Ricky Green
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:07 AM ^
Chandler's "domination of Hunter" had nothing to do with his defensive stance nor his footwork. Hunter has, innately, slow foot-speed and it is what it is. If this could be mitigated there would have been plenty of indication by this time. Otherwise, he has done phenomenally well.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:32 AM ^
He has had a very good season. I would not go "phenomenally well" as it pertains to defense, though. I feel like opposing teams have far too many rim runs and put backs all year against a team with a 7 footer in the lineup.
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:26 AM ^
I wonder, though, if some of his iffy rim protection is due to him being extra careful this year about fouling given our lack of post depth. I seem to recall him being stronger in this area last year, although maybe I'm misremembering.
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:43 AM ^
Hunter can play better D. As Brendan and Dylan were commenting on their pod yesterday, asking him to score 25 points and play all-out D is an impossible task. I was theorizing earlier this year that some of his off games were attributable to exhaustion; happily he looks healthy these days and, tomorrow, will be going on what one presumes is decent rest.
But he is slow and does get caught out. Some of that, I believe, CAN be fixed through more decisive play. He's done things this year that I didn't think possible, so I'll hope for improved D from him.
I do think that criticism of this kind COULD influence him to come back for another year, get a lot of attention, visibly improve, and have some NBA team opt for him. I love Hunter, so I will hope for the best!
March 23rd, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^
I'll take this year's post depth over last year's post depth. He just doesn't have great defensive instincts when it comes to help defense although he is can be pretty stout one on one.
March 23rd, 2022 at 12:46 PM ^
I think the bigger issue to this is why so many guys got rim runs and that's because we have no wing defender. It's hard to put the majority of this on Hunter when guys on the perimeter are routinely getting beat and Hunter has to come off and help. Not saying he's a good defender for the NBA level, but I watched a lot of guys blow by Houstan and Jones and muscle past Eli.
While this surely has happened aplenty to compare it to the way Hunter is being directly targeted, with such great success, is a whole different ballgame. The thing that is as much or more shocking here is that the coaching staff has allowed it to progress/continue. Here, there are measures that can be taken to minimize Hunter's specific deficiency-where the consequences would be significantly better than present results. The Michigan coaches have got to put Hunter in a better position to accentuate his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.
What are those measures? I really don't know so I'm just curious. I think the zone has helped but you can't do it all game. I like the little bit of press they showed during the middle of the season helped at times and I know they also have a match-up zone that probably alleviates some of the issues. But in pure man-to-man what are the other things they could do to help him out?
My point was more that when the guards are consistently getting beat it exposes everyone on defense a little bit. If the guards were bigger or more athletic I think it allows a lot of other options in the PNR game and that lessens the stress on Hunter's weaknesses. But he's not great on a switch and not a great rim protector.
Guys on the perimeter are mostly "getting beat" because they're being screened in a pick and roll. That's an intentional thing the offense does to take them out of the play and force it all on Hunter where, as Vecenie correctly points out, he can't hedge because he gets roasted on the perimeter and he has a bad feel / ability to drop and keep the guard from beating him anyway or from preventing passes to the roller.
I've seen a lot of plays where guys just get beat. No screen involved. I'm not saying the screen action isn't part of it but I've watched bigger, and more athletic guards blow by our guys with regularity. Eli is too small to stay with the better SF and Caleb is too slow. Devante isn't quick enough to stay with some of the better PG's and then Kobe has been beat like a drum some games.
I should not have assumed:
*Offensively* he has done phenomenally well.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:12 AM ^
I don't see how. It's a physical limitation. I also don't think he's a great rim protector given his size. Players seem to be driving on him without fear this season. Northing wrong with playing in Europe. Jordan Morgan has had an excellent career there.
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:29 AM ^
Every year we're treated to breathless, glowing tributes to Camp Sanderson and the huge changes it wreaks on the underdeveloped bodies of incoming freshman. Strength, conditioning, flexibility, etc etc are all substantially improved. I guess that improvement can't occur beyond freshman year.
As for the notion that Dickinson's foot speed can't be improved, track coach James Henry has worked with UM athletes in other sports to improve quickness and speed. I'm not saying that Dickinson can become Phil Hubbard, but I don't buy the assertion that he is what he is and it's literally impossible for him to improve his foot speed and quickness.
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:46 AM ^
I think you see the most improvement from Camp Sanderson between year 1 and 2 and I didn't see anything this year. Maybe even a little regression. He clearly worked on his shooting.
I agree that it can happen. Duncan Robinson's transformation into more of an NBA body late in college and after college is the best example. I just think Hunter was so clear that he was gone after this year that he would have worked on that aspect of his conditioning more.
Well, he's playing five more minutes a game. And he is more front and center in the D this year, as well. As I said above, it's getting caught in that no-man's land when people drive the line that looks most problematical to me, and I assume that--while maybe limited--he can do better.
March 23rd, 2022 at 11:40 AM ^
Agreed with nothing wrong with playing in Europe. But now, with NIL being what it is, I would think there is a very good chance that Hunter comes back for at least one more year, moves himself into the top 3? of Michigan big man in the record books and then goes to Europe.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:36 AM ^
I contest that he'd probably need to get to the G League to learn the pro game and work on his defense. Is another year in college better than a year in the G League?
I certainly hope Hunter comes back, but to suggest he'd be BETTER OFF coming back is false, in my opinion.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:51 AM ^
Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. He will get better in the G League with pro coaching and no worries about studies. I think he's gone. I also think Diabate and Houstan are gone. The G League is a legit minor league now and it's a good way to develop.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:58 AM ^
Just read an article about Max Christie. Going pro wasn't even mentioned as a possibility. Not sure what Izzo does to get these guys to stick around.
March 23rd, 2022 at 12:10 PM ^
Have you seen Max Christies stats? Why the hell would he leave? They are worse than Houstans!
March 23rd, 2022 at 12:42 PM ^
I completely disagree. If you're floating around in the g-league you are not an organization's priority. Their priority is their drafted players first and their 2-way players second. An organization has almost zero incentive to develop a G-leaguer if they don't have him under contract because they can get signed to another team the second they show any promise.
At least in college under the pressure of the bright lights and being the man Hunter will have a very structured work out and development schedule both in season and during the off season. He's still a young guy and I think unless he is amazingly self motivated he could get lost in the G-league.
It's not a knock to say most big men, even great ones, take longer to find that obsession with the game as they often picked up the game because they were so tall.
He won't clean it up in a summer, no. The question is whether he wants to try to clean it up in college where he has limited practice time and only 30 some games or in the G League / Europe where he can work on it more.
The money might even be better in college now. The draw of going pro would be having more time to work on it. I personally think it's a physical issue and that there's probably not a lot he can do.
I do think that one of his issues this year is that it's obvious he doesn't want to contest a lot of shots because he wants to avoid fouling so he can play 32-35 min a game. If he was in a 50/50 platoon like a lot of centers (Edey and Williams for instance), this wouldn't be an issue and he'd probably be able to / willing to play better defense.
I hope Dickinson isn't so set on leaving he doesn't see the potential benefit of at least one more year
I wonder if Hunter staying leads Diabate more towards leaving. I do think we retain one of them; but I would say there is a greater chance we retain neither than retain both.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:05 AM ^
The knocks on Hunter’s games are accurate, however, how often does a traditional center guard opposing teams guards on the perimeter? Very rarely. That being said, Hunter is who he is, while a great college player, he can have a decade+ career in the NBA as a back-up center. Not too shabby.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:14 AM ^
You may wish to consider the primary mode of attack by recent opponents-it is exactly this and the success rate is off the charts. I have not charted it but my guess is that half or more of their points are directly from the realities of this matter. This is why Michigan is increasingly going to zone-and rightfully so.
March 23rd, 2022 at 12:50 PM ^
We also don't have great defenders on the perimeter so it limits a lot of what Juwan can do on defense and puts Hunter in a lot of tough spots. If Franz or Livers is out there this team is completely different on D and Hunter probably doesn't look as exposed as he has. But so many guards get to the rim with ease against our wing defenders.
March 23rd, 2022 at 10:24 AM ^
I think you wildly underestimate the difficulty of being an NBA backup. You can’t play “traditional” C in the league if you’re a defensive disaster and not a rim protector, because that means on a P&R, both switching and dropping is bad. There’s a far far better chance that he never plays in a game compared to a ten year career.