Details on NCAA Process for UM w/r/t Sign Stealing Investigation
In light of today's news, it is fairly clear that the current investigation is of a much greater severity than many on this Board (including me) initially thought and will likely lead to some penalties being imposed on UM by both NCAA and possibly Big10. Based on my past experience handling investigations with the NCAA, and the number of somewhat crazy statements being made on the Board, just wanted to outline some general principles of the NCAA process and what next steps realistically will be for UM.
As of now, the NCAA's investigative staff is in the fact compilation process, by which they are developing the record for the ultimate hearing that will be held to determine liability and, if liability is found, punishment. As many have mentioned, staff do not have subpoena power or any clause that requires UM to cooperate, turn over devices, provide staff for interviews, etc. With that being said, compliance with requests, unless they are grossly disproportionate, is expected and usually given and Staff can request from the panel intermediate penalties to try to induce cooperation. A lack of cooperation, in turn, can be used inferentially by the hearing panel to suggest culpability.
After the investigation completes and the investigators determine the exact nature of the underlying alleged infractions, there's a very complicated and long pre-hearing process. Most importantly, during this process, the actual panel that will hear the case is determined. Contrary to public belief, this is done by a computer, and the target institution may challenge panel members that appear to have a conflict of interest. All charges are brought on an institutional level, meaning UM will be the target institution even if this matter stays just with Stalions.
There are a number of methods of resolution of an NCAA complaint. First, there can be a negotiated resolution (think: settlement) within which the parties agree on the outcome and avoid a disputed resolution through a hearing. Second, there can be summary disposition, where the parties basically rely on their briefing and the hearing panel reaches a conclusion. Finally, there may be an actual hearing, within which relevant parties will present their cases, witnesses will testify, evidence will be shown, etc. Of note, third parties can attend and participate, which can include conference reps, interested institutions, etc.
After all of this, there may be post-hearing briefing, but then you receive a decision from the panel. There are six major types of penalties the NCAA can impose:
- Show Cause Orders. General show-cause orders are flat-out bans from all activity. Specific show-cause are . . . specific bans from specific activities.
- Financial Penalties - these can include fines as well as reducing revenue sharing proceeds.
- Scholarship Reductions
- Suspensions
- Vacating Wins and Records
- Banning the Institution from Participation
Many on the Board have noted that recent by-laws impose a Head Coach Responsibility penalty. Unlike the mainstream reporting, however, that Responsibility is not automatic, and instead is based on a holistic assessment of a number of factors, including: (1) whether the Coach was involved; (2) what compliance and "spot-checks" were implemented at the program generally; (3) history of affirmative reporting of wrongdoing; (4) educated staff on relevant NCAA rules.
Whatever punishments are reached are then subject to a potential motion for reconsideration and possibly an appeal as well.
My conclusion: this is a very long process that usually takes years and even on an expedited timeline should take 6-9 months. UM's season should thus technically be safe, and any punishments will either be retrospective or for next season but not interfering. There is too much unknown at this point, but the major question is (1) who funded the activities; (2) how long did it occur; (3) was it understood to be occuring. Harbaugh is not necessarily going to get hit with Head Coach Responsibility, but given NCAA views him as a "bad actor" already, the chips are stacked in that regards.
The one silver lining is timing. This came out before we played PSU or OSU, and any competitive injury that could have been suffered has been mitigated by the public disclosure weeks in advance. Thus, comprehensive victories against both would go a long way to suggesting whatever benefit this created was marginal and ultimately was not responsible for the program's success over the last few years. If this had been released at end of the year, enemies of UM would be able to claim everything was tainted. This is a rare opportunity to sanitize a very unsavory narrative.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:46 PM ^
whatever benefit this created was marginal and ultimately was not responsible for the program's success over the last few years.
Immaterial. Break rules regardless of the outcome won't stop them from serving punishments.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:31 PM ^
I still find it frustrating that we may have violated what I, and many others, consider a stupid rule for marginal benefit. Did we really need this?
October 23rd, 2023 at 9:05 PM ^
Yeah, fuck it, if you are going to be caught breaking rules, then go out and break a meaningful one and buy a 5-star via NIL inducements.
October 23rd, 2023 at 10:56 PM ^
It is currently one man's idea.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:48 PM ^
So . . . brace for the inevitable "Breaking News: Michigan football indefinitely banned from all post season activities until the investigation is complete. NCAA cites unusual and unprecedented circumstances related to the integrity and safety of the game."
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:13 PM ^
Dude just jump off the cliff you're on already. Noone will miss you anyways
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:59 PM ^
Are you okay? I don't know what a noone is, but our mother's would miss me . . . and for similar reasons. If I killed myself my mom would do anything for me to come back. Your mom . . . you get it.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:30 PM ^
Have a Coke or Snickers Mean Joe.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:48 PM ^
If this will take potentially 9 months to play out, could we join the SEC, which would mean the BigTen couldn't punish us and then the NCAA would be forced to slap our wrist?
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:50 PM ^
Let's go to the Pac-12.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:39 PM ^
PAC 2, er, 3
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:13 PM ^
9 months? No. Even if the NCAA is expediting this process (because it's Michigan), no way this gets resolved in 9 months. It took 6 years for Kansas to get a slap on the wrist.
October 23rd, 2023 at 8:05 PM ^
But they got a hard on for Harbaugh
October 23rd, 2023 at 9:19 PM ^
At this point I'm suspecting it's priapism. The astronomical amounts of jacking off they've already done makes it almost certain.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:52 PM ^
I can't say enough great things about the quality of the work being done by a lot of posters on this great resource. Been my top tab favorite for 14 seasons for a reason.
And this post is yet another example.
I enjoy being informed about the situation.
And I also think many folks on here are taking this way too seriously.
It's exactly the reason ESPN has been so dramatic in how they are writing these articles. To get you worried and to give talking points to morons in opposing fan bases.
The national guys who know the sport think it's all a total joke and a way for a pointless and toothless organization to needle Harbaugh for his quirky renegade style and open support of sharing the riches with the players. And they also say that whatever it is, it hasn't given Michigan any advantage they don't already have without it.
Many of you all are falling into the trap being set by jealous opposing fans.
Whatever it is when the dust settles, it's worth a good chuckle as we enjoy a potentially historic team and season.
Harbaugh is hands down one of the most ethical people existing in a profession loaded with phonies and bad actors.
And this is from a fan who holds Michigan's adherence to the rules in high esteem.
I don't think this is anything, nor has the potential to be anything but sports radio talking point for Valenti and his ilk.
But it's a free country and you all are free to take it how you want.
Living in narratives and worrying about them, is a bad way to go when your team is winning like this one is. You're missing out on the total fun of this team and season. For no good reason.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:34 PM ^
At the end of the day all of the experts say the same thing: CHANGE YOUR DAMN SIGNS!!!!
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:40 PM ^
Maybe that's an ancillary cost of having too many 0.0 gpa's in your program. It took three years to teach them the signs in the first place, how are we going to change them in one week?
One of the comedic aspects of all this is how stupidly obvious a lot of the signs are, like Nascar for "hurry up" and a guy pulling on a boot for "bootleg."
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:44 PM ^
Absolutely agree.
The worst thing that can happen is that these wins are "vacated". Nobody gives a shit about vacated wins. Everyone remembers history exactly as it happened.
Besides, the NCAA is on it's death bed. Pretty soon nobody will see the NCAA's legacy, in regards to sanctions, as legitimate.
October 23rd, 2023 at 8:20 PM ^
I will push back strongly that nobody cares about vacated wins. And it's not just the wins, it's the Big Ten championships.
October 23rd, 2023 at 9:10 PM ^
I do not want any of our wins vacated. Period.
If some coaches get punishments, that is on them. But vacating wins hurts the innocent . . . players, students, fans.
Aim the punishment cannon at the actually guilty.
October 24th, 2023 at 1:39 AM ^
Good point. I didn't think too much of the broader consequences before I posted. It is extremely unfair, especially to the players themselves.
October 23rd, 2023 at 8:53 PM ^
But Nate, if you've been here long enough, you yourself know a few posters that love self-flagellating themselves. The sky is falling, Harbaugh will never coach here again. He's going pro before the OSU game!!! Warde is screwing up the athletic department while serving peanuts and cheeseburgers. Some people are just plain,"miserable!" And that can simply be seen in mostly all of their posts.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:52 PM ^
I think a bigger question should be asked is why is there a NCAA rule for a method of cheating but not the act of cheating? Clearly theft of signals by any method is at best unsportsmanlike. Yet in football it is permitted except by certain methods.
This is akin to one gang of criminals objecting to another use’s of sub machine guns in the commission of a crime while they use shotguns and handguns.
The absurdity of this kind of logic should be blasted far and wide.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:55 PM ^
Yeah, it's a stupid and outdated rule. In 2021, a sub-committee sought to have it removed because it found it did not protect competition in any meaingful way but required significant costs to ensure compliance. But that proposal was rejected and it remains on the books.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:06 PM ^
The fact that the NCAA refused to change the rule signifies that they are not really concerned with cheating which undermines their credibility when it comes to dedication for fair play. I assume UM is aware of this and will use it in any defense.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:00 PM ^
I think that stealing signals or signs is almost inevitable in some ways - if you see something are you supposed to ignore it? Let's say they use radios like the NFL - if you recognize a line call 2 plays in a row - are you "stealing signals?" However, banning in-person scouting is easier, and banning the filming of signals and coaching staffs at least forces the sign-stealing to be an in-game process. Granted, that rule was written at a time where not every single game was available nationally on TV, and not every single fan had access to a pocket-sized video recording device - so it's likely rife for an update. But it still sounds likely (though not conclusive) that a rule was broken, and there will be changes and clarifications to the rules moving forward, and probably more electronic signal transmission starting next year.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:11 PM ^
Teams spend lots of time studying other teams. From an ethical standpoint in terms of sports that is the ethical line.
Theft of signals is something one does in war and understandably so. War is life and death.
Sports is not. There should be limits to what is one is willing to do to win a sporting event.Unfortunately, too many see football as war on the field of sport and justify the blurring of lines.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:03 PM ^
Clearly theft of signals by any method is at best unsportsmanlike.
That's not at all clear to me. If I suss out an opponent's audible calls at the LOS, is that unsportsmanlike? How about if I notice the guy blocking me always lines up parallel if it's a run but drops his outside foot if he's going to pass block? Where do you draw the line?
October 24th, 2023 at 8:57 AM ^
Agreed, and it’s essentially “you must use shotguns because submachine guns are too expensive for some gangs.” All while NIL is running rampant and no one seems to give a fuck about the financial competitive advantage that gives
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:53 PM ^
This was a great read. No matter how you slice it, this will impact the program negatively moving forward.
1. Does Harbaugh stay
2. Do we lose recruits
3. Negative recruiting
Of all the things to get busted over for cheating, this was not one of them. We should have been buying players all along instead of this.
And I doubt that Michigan is the only team doing this. We were just stupid enough to get caught.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:02 PM ^
Yeah, people here are in denial. I think the rule is stupid but it is the rule and we keep giving the NCAA lip and are basically daring them to mess with us. And this is an effectively a neutered organization that can’t enforce anything anymore and yet we have given them some ammo to target us. Lame. I would love to dismantle the NCAA after we sue them for libel, but this does nothing to fix the immediate situation. Let’s beat the heck out of all of the remaining teams now out schedule and prove we didn’t need stolen signs to beat anyone.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:00 AM ^
I don’t think this in itself will have an effect on recruiting. The uncertainty could, but these kids are exposed to other team’s violations all the time. They know what these teams do
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:53 PM ^
This is complete speculation. A lot of people on this blog have conducted “investigations.” They have no standard form.
Just let it go for now. The NCAA is going to do what they are going to do. And fuck them. They aren’t going to cancel the OSU game and that is the biggest game we play regardless of Playoff.
Beat Ohio.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:57 PM ^
What do you mean? There is quite literally a written down process and structure, codified in extensive materials, including hundreds of pages which you can read if you'd like. The idea that the NCAA is doing this on the fly is incorrect. The idea that the NCAA uses these type of complex beaurocratic processes to provide legitimacy to fundmaentally illegitimate enforcement proceedings is, on the other hand, correct. As a general matter, it isn't the rogue actors you should be worried about in life. It is the rogue institutions, with all their laws and rules and procedures, that really will hurt you.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:31 PM ^
They don't have a punishment written for this either. They'll just make it up and are kind doing it on the fly.
I'm sure their bias against Harbaugh will play a role regardless of their codified structure and whatnot. Especially since they don't have a punishment since they probably themselves never saw it as some big cheating exploit.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:05 PM ^
*SIGH*
Just wanted to still bask in the afterglow of beating the living tar out of Sparty. But this is going to dominate all topics and threads for a while. Someone get me a time machine so I can go back to Saturday night.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:06 PM ^
It's going to dominate TWO weeks because of the bye. Ugh.
October 24th, 2023 at 6:15 AM ^
Agree. I'd rather bitch about Purdue being a night game for the next two weeks instead of this.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:07 PM ^
This is an excellent post.
Based on the reporting and some of the things that have been shared on this website and others. It’s pretty clear that we can surmise the exact details of what happened here. I’ve seen all the takes and hilarity on Twitter et. al and also need to provide some additional context for this before my head explodes.
First, as a former player at the collegiate level, this stuff happens literally everywhere, all the time. And at the division 1 level, it’s literally impossible not to. Yes, advanced in person scouting is banned. But teams have access to every single camera angle you could imagine and I promise every division 1 program has a GA or staffer charting signals and plays and someone trying to find tendencies and “de-code” them. There is literally zero advantage by filming anything in person. In fact, it’s ridiculously stupid. This doesn’t make it legal, it makes it commonplace and debunks any “competitive advantage” arguments. It also doesn’t matter much because…
Second, every single team in college football is either A. Changing their signs or B. running a different game plan for every single opponent they face. While the general concepts and schemes may be the same, the nuances to the plays are all very opponent dependent and always evolving and changing. Watching any game film allows you to pretty quickly surmise based on down and distance, personal package, and field location, what small number of plays a team will run. My point is, signal stealing does little to no good. Especially when every single team has multiple “bluff” or “non live” signals for each play call.
In this context, and given the reporting about how the tickets were purchased and the nature of this particular staffer (described as a “Michigan fanboy” who just wanted access to the program), it’s so blindingly clear to see that it is possible that he did this totally on his own and only to help him in his job which I would bet anything was to provide either the offensive or defensive coaching staff a tendency and scouting report for the gameplan. It would have been a small footnote in any prep work the coaches did.
So no, Michigan did not suddenly become this version of Michigan Football because of some idiot named Connor. It did so because of hard work, ass busting, and relentless execution by a bunch of 18-22 year old kids that don’t deserve an ounce of the national scrutiny being leveled upon them by idiot “journalists” in today’s news media.
Finally, I have to add that this is another example of what’s happened with the fractured leadership structure of the Michigan athletic department. Jim Harbaugh rules the roost within the football program and it’s clear that he has made the admin let it operate without oversight. How else could they hire someone like Shemy without any oversight? How else could they not immediately self report some minor recruiting violations that lead to actual violations? How else could they let some staffer recruit people to go film games in violation of NCAA rules (maybe, I think it’s clearly a grey area they will argue) when they could get the same information from multiple sources? Jim Harbaugh is an amazing football coach, but people are who they are, and he’s someone who will not be told what to do and will not allow someone to oversee his operations. And these types of things are what you get as a result.
At the end of the day, this isn’t fair to the players, staff, and everyone in the program who will have their accomplishments tainted. But if you think this helped their success in any way or if you think that this isn’t a direct result of Jim Harbaugh being the head coach, you’re delusional.
October 23rd, 2023 at 11:15 PM ^
Thanks for the insight as a former player and your opinion on how the football program got to where they are (both the good and the bad).
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:08 PM ^
I'm going to start recording all Buckeye opponents and then whistle blow myself so Day can get a show cause.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:44 PM ^
When you buy the tickets, use the name "Zach Smith."
October 23rd, 2023 at 10:29 PM ^
Or Wildman T...
October 23rd, 2023 at 9:11 PM ^
You can blow yourself? Who are you a young Ron Jeremy?
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:09 PM ^
The NCAA can suck our dicks.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:09 PM ^
Out of curiosity, could you vaguely describe your background in dealing with NCAA investigation? Like what side and what role, etc?
If not, I totally understand. I've just never heard from someone with actual firsthand information or experience. We all speculate and guess so much on here regarding NCAA stuff, it's cool to have someone with knowledge.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:10 PM ^
can we just get a “sign stealing” snowflake thread? do we really need 5 posts about it today?
October 23rd, 2023 at 9:18 PM ^
We've waited decades to have a legit shot at a National Championship. Now we have it, and this development directly threatens it. I want 5 more posts today. And 10 tomorrow.
There is nothing more important right now. Post away.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:10 PM ^
If Michigan has any shred of evidence of any other school doing anything even remotely shady, I'm throwing it out right now. Take everyone down
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:12 PM ^
Thank you for the dispassionate overview of the process. Many are "all up in their feelings" over this, and it is understandable. Buckeyes have now determined exactly why they were beaten, which is comforting for them. Hence posters who claim that kicking their a**es again is the surest remedy to our collective discomfort.
My question: If this was legal until 1994 and was only eliminated to level the playing field financially among teams, why isn't every other financial advantage regulated by the NCAA to "normalize" competition. Weight rooms? Nutrition budget? NIL resources?
To me the remedy, if found guilty, should be a fine, to compensate league members for their use of funds to in person scout.