College Football - definition of a touchdown - bowl games
I haven't commented much about this - but, as others have pointed out - the history of officiating as well as the recent negated / overturned TD in the Fiesta Bowl seemed to be history repeating itself in a way.
There was a Rose Bowl - a number of years ago, when Charles White (from USC) was credited with a TD, despite fumbling the ball at (about) the 3 yard line. Here's an image of that fumble.
And, of course, this is a photo of Roman Wilson from Saturday evening - when he has full possession of the ball. It would appear that the ball has crossed the plane of the goal line.
So, if you fumble the ball at the three yard line - it's ok, you'll still get credit for a TD: however, if you complete the reception in the end zone, it's considered down at the one yard line.
Does anyone besides me think professional officials are needed - OR, at least competent ones?
I'm extremely proud of this team and what they accomplished this season.
Go Blue!
January 2nd, 2023 at 9:57 AM ^
It’s time for fans to have the replay vote. Take it out of the hands of officials and vote instantly through the Chick-Filet/Bitcoin App.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
I am now in favor of abolishing instant replay. They do not apply the standard correctly, and have taken to a level of analysis of plays that human sight cannot account for, even when broken down frame by frame. The officials should call the game as they see it. It would also shorten what I think we can all agree are wildly overly-long games as well. It should not take 4 hours to play a college football game. That is absurd.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:18 AM ^
At this point I'd just take all of these schools being a little more aggressive against this bad officiating. These bad calls cost these schools a LOT. Seeding, recruits, money, bowl games, w/l's, it's all tied together.
Why is it that we never hear anything from these people? If some part-time employee making a doctors salary cost me what it will cost everyone on that Michigan team I'd absolutely blow my fucking lid.
Why be nice about it? Why be proper about it? It's accomplishing exactly NOTHING. It has been proven time and time again that to fix these issues they need to be brought to the light. If nobody is willing to do it then it will NEVER happen. Somebody, some team of prominence, is going to have to make a serious stink about this stuff.
Personally, I'd absolutely LOVE to see a team just rage-quit. Get a TD overturned, pack their shit up and walk off the field.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
It would totally be worth any fine if Warde and/or Harbaugh came out and said, "that was a total horseshit review and overturn of an obvious touchdown. Those replay guys are fucking blind."
Nothing will ever change unless these idiots are repeatedly, publicly, called out.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
vlady, can you put that quote in russian? i think it would be even better.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
I've always been anti replay
However, if it is used only change the obvious egregious errors. You shouldn't have to Zapruder film the damn thing.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:58 AM ^
It's almost like the officials had some reason to want the easier opponent in the championship game or they were OSU alum or something.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:59 AM ^
Plays/calls could be reviewed, but should only happen if it is challenged.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
There are some frustrating moments, but you'd be much more frustrated if they missed a super obvious call, which was the original intention. It has gotten out of hand, but to not be able to correct obvious errors would be a step backwards for the sport
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
Put a sensor in the football and use it for close plays. Tennis has figured out how to quickly use technology for line calls. Football could could do the same thing if they chose to do so. I am so tired of bad spots, many of which the refs can't see clearly or simply use bad judgement.
January 2nd, 2023 at 1:46 PM ^
Tennis figured this out 30 years ago! My memory is that back then tennis had a problem that only the guy in the chair was a professional and the rest were just dug up, which sounds kinda familiar.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
The frame by frame is what kills it. There is no way you can watch the Roman TD in real time or even reasonably slow motion and think he possessed the ball before the ball crossed the goal line. But if you go frame by frame and ignore everything else you can maybe convince yourself he touched it ever so slightly before it did.
If you need to go frame by frame or ultra slow motion you are almost certainly not looking at something indisputable and the call should stand.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
Fact: Michigan has lost 3 games in the last two years.
Fact: In 2 of Michigans last 3 losses there has been serious questions about the legitimacy of the officiating after clear Michigan touchdowns were overturned.
Literally, 2 of our last 3 losses had touchdowns overturned that were so egregious that the entire college football world was shocked.
That's a serious fucking problem.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
This is why I get fired up reading all of the bridge dwellers around here, and their "unacceptable" commentary. Our fan base needs some serious self reflection time.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
And both of those 2 were lost by less than a TD.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
[deleted]
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
Agreed. I think this really shows the need for unified, professional officials. I don’t think they’re against us in some conspiracy way, they’re just really bad at what they do
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
In both cases, the on-field referees got the TD calls correct, but it was the replay official who (in our opinion) made the error in overturning the call.
I think we can all live with the on-field referees making occasional errors, as do the players/coaches, but a replay official should never make an error, as he/she always has the "call stands" option if they have any doubt.
So maybe the replay official should be a football-knowledgeable celebrity, who is named for each game. Then there'd be accountability, as the person reviewing the calls is known. Of course, it would be our luck to have the celebrity for our game be Urban Meyer.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
Why is it that when they bring in the rules analyst that he said td and replay official overturned the call so quick? What was that guy looking at? Indisputable evidence. Did he look at frame by frame and the ball touched his hand? Just because ball touched your hand doesn't complete the catch.
Frustrating to watch this shit happen over and over and no one is held accountable.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:50 PM ^
I’m confused about who is the “replay official”. Isn’t it one of the regular officials who has the little viewing booth brought out on the field? Wouldn’t that be the Head of the crew on the field?
January 2nd, 2023 at 3:02 PM ^
No, thats what they do in the NFL because they have full time pro refs. In college the “replay official” is another part time schmuck in a booth.
January 2nd, 2023 at 1:40 PM ^
Let's not forget that the ball was spotted 2 yards short of where the interception was returned.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
Atleast get the best of the best for playoff games. It seems reasonable and possible too have NFL refs doing the CFP given what's at stake for those 4 teams.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
Great point. Isn't that what the NFL does for the playoffs? Grade officials throughout the season...best work the playoffs?
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
1994 - to my knowledge, that is how it works. The refs are evaluated / graded after every game - but both teams - and, the "best" crews call the playoffs, etc. The definition of "best" would seem to be the officials that are graded as being most accurate in their on the field calls.
My perspective is - with all the media money conferences are getting, that conferences should hire / employ officials - in full time positions - where their "career" is a college official. They would be cross trained so they could cover multiple sports, and - after each game - as happens in the NFL, both teams grade the officials after the game.
It certainly would be refreshing.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
Cross trained? So I could officiate both football and gymnastics? Where do I sign up?
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:56 AM ^
They are looking for Refs in Michigan. Contact MHSAA
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
Bleed, the approach you suggest - NFL refs for the CFP, is something I hadn't thought of.
Candidly, it's an interesting perspective. Though, there is one question going through my mind - which is - how significantly different are the NFL rules, as compared to college, and would those rule differences be difficult for the officials to manage.
There are "basic" differences which most of us know - e.g. one foot inbounds on a reception, vs two feet. Not sure where there are other "noticeable" differences in the rules for college vs NFL.
Regardless, great idea, thanks for sharing.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
I agree, though with the caveat that the refs chosen would need to be well-versed in college football rules. Maybe having prior college football refereeing experience could be a requirement.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:25 AM ^
Because of course there are never any bad calls or head-scratching instant replay decisions in the NFL.
/s
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
And now I'm definitely gonna have nightmares about the upcoming reffing job at the Lions-Packers game.
The second half in the Lions-Packers game from three years ago was one of the biggest reffing "FU"s I've ever seen. I'm looking to see the Lions sack Aaron Rodgers at least three times. Preferably at least 2 by Adrian Hutchinson but I'm not going to be picky.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^
Am I the only one who thinks the NFL has way better officiating? They spot the ball better, they're faster with decisions, and bad calls are far fewer even with higher stakes.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
At the very least, use NFL guys for the replay booth.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
JT was short.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:32 AM ^
JT might've been short, he might not have. i think it was a legit call either way and no 'clear and convincing' evidence to overturn it had the officials called it either way.
however, ohio not having a single in-play penalty in that game, including some horrendous PI and holding non-calls, combined with some of the ticky-tack crap they called on us is the much, much bigger 'story' about how we got hosed that game.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:54 AM ^
Thank you for beating me to it.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
As I recall there were a couple pretty egregious holds on the play that set up the JT-was-short 4th down play, with the OSU runner reversing field a couple of times with some very grabby blockers. At the time that upset me more than the spot itself, which was at least an extremely close call either way.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
When 95% of the fans viewing a play think the play should stand as called and the replay official changes the call how does that meet the definition of “indisputable video evidence”?
It’s fucked up.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^
DD - I would like to see a single image / frame - which supports the "booth reversal with undisputed evidence" - that Roman Wilson secured possession of the ball prior to the ball crossing the goal line. Every view I have seen shows the ball "not securely" in Wilson's hands until the ball has broken the plane.
Oh - and as was mentioned in other comments, it would be nice if the officials actually participated in a press conference with the media after the game and answered a few questions.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
Ab- 100%. Wilson first makes contact with the ball at like the 1 inch-line, as his butt is sliding into the end zone. The ball kind of spins and turns over in his hands and by the time he secures it, he is well past the goal line. Touchdown. I've only seen the one angle- repeatedly- and haven't seen others. And I'm hoping that the others support the decision to overturn at least a little bit. That call really changed the complexion of the game for Michigan.
And I agree with your second statement, right on the money. It's weird how there is accountability for everyone involved in college football...except the referees. The public deserves a more thorough explanation on some of these major calls. I mean, they should be protected from the slings and arrows and worst instincts of all these fanbases, but they can't go on making colossal mistakes like this without having to answer to anybody. Although, press conferences would run the risk of turning into the Referee Bill Pittman Show: Watch Saturday Night Live Highlight: The Referee - NBC.com (caution: there is some offensive language in this bit).
January 2nd, 2023 at 1:52 PM ^
Good post. And . . ."at like the 1 inch-line" does not qualify as indisputable proof. Let the call stand. I thought the ball broke the plane before he touched it until I looked at all the replay angles and found the one you were probably using. I don't think the replay official had indisputable evidence to overturn the call on the field even for the initial contact argument.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
Single frames are exactly the problem. You need motion to realize that Roman doesn’t have possession the instant his hands touch the ball (well, that should be obvious either way, but “a single frame” is the only way I see it plausible to find something showing Wilson short)
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
I don't believe instant replay itself is the problem. The problem is the officials that are doing the reviews and making the calls. It's incompetency.
I think a better approach might be to take a page from the NHL. They have a "war room" in Toronto where all goals are typically reviewed in 20-30 seconds. They say they typically have made their determination before the on ice official has their headphones on.
That way you have a small number of men, say a half dozen, who are really good at their jobs, know the rules cold and aren't influenced by fandom. Yes, you have quite a few more college football games than hockey games going on at any given time but with the revenue CFB brings in, I'm sure they could figure out a way to make it work.
Anything would be better than the current failed system.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
smothering,
Another good perspective. And, perhaps the "goal" / review room is something that the NCAA could look in to. What I'm thinking is - with Emmert leaving the NCAA, this could be an agenda item for the incoming NCAA President to consider.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Forget having a small number of men; we need women in that room. If there is one thing I have learned being in a house where I am the only male is that they are never wrong.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
College football already does this! The announcers even said the replays were looked at in a 'war room' located in Pittsburg. The B1G has reviews for every game each weekend at a command center in Chicago. There is no in-stadium 'booth' review anymore.
And they still get it disgustingly wrong.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
then what is the on-field ref doing looking into a monitor with headphones on? he might as well sit there like the red-hat TV timeout guy and simply wait until the 'war room' tells him thumbs up or thumbs down.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^
I assumed the ref on the monitor was making the final call as well, but if it’s the same system the SEC uses for the regular season supposedly the sideline refs can watch the same thing the replay guy sees and “collaborate” but the replay official has final say.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^
I think it was for the Fiesta bowl or one of the games, but I seem to recall hearing that in addition the replay official(s) at the game there was also "some official in Pittsburgh" looking at the replays...
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^
Comparing these two plays is bullshit. In 1973 there was no replay, hell, there wasn't even VCR! Sometimes refs missed things and you ate it. There were no other options. Today, every play gets a frame by frame look.
How did the ref miss White's fumble? Nobody knows... Could it have been intentional? Sure! But more likely he was looking at some place on the line to watch for holding and just didn't see the ball come out for whatever reason.
There are no excuses for overturning Wilson's TD. The officials must be called on to explain! They won't be, of course, but 20-yr old JJ McCarthy has to explain to reporters, moments after a crushing loss, why he threw two pic-6's. While middle aged officials get to overturn an obvious result because they didn't like it without explanation.
Two bullshit results, with very different situations and explanations. They are not comparable.