Charles Woodson interviewing Jim Harbauggh before the Wisconsin game.
Nothing earth shattering, and nothing anyone who spends time this board hasn't heard, but it's still a legend interviewing another legend.
October 4th, 2021 at 10:47 AM ^
Harbaugggh the new Rudddock?
October 4th, 2021 at 11:06 AM ^
He's GGGGGreat!
October 4th, 2021 at 10:49 AM ^
I think we'd all agree Charles Woodson is a legend; one of the top 5 (?) players to ever play at Michigan who matched that with a stellar NFL career.
But do most folks regard Coach Harbaugh as a legend? If so why? If not, what would it take for him to attain that designation in your eyes?
October 4th, 2021 at 10:54 AM ^
What would it take?
Well for starters it would be awfully nice to beat OSU.
Then actually win the B1G East outright
Then win the B1G Championship game
Then make the final whatever number of teams are playing for the title when they win the B1G
Then win the whole damn thing
That would make him pretty fucking legendary in my mind.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:10 AM ^
Well, he did do most of that stuff. As a player.
He's not AC or Woodson, and he isn't Bo, but he would be in that tier right below them in my mind.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:23 AM ^
FWIW I was at the 86 Rose Bowl and to this day cannot believe we blew a 15-3 lead (Bo actually went for two) in that game.
The 2nd half was brutal to watch - almost as ugly as the 2nd half of the 2006 Rose Bowl. Bo must've called 47 draw plays to Jamie Morris in that half alone. Didnt work.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:27 AM ^
I remember that game against I think ASU had Jeff Van Raaphorst (sp?) as QB and were coached by John Cooper (aka my favorite OSU FB coach of all time). On our first TD we ran a trick play and went for 2 and got it; felt like we were going to run away with it. Then things happened.....
October 4th, 2021 at 1:37 PM ^
Based on your previous post about Woodson being a legend and Harbaugh not, your logic would suggest that if Woodson failed as a coach he would no longer be a legend.
As far as Harbaugh is concerned, he was a legend as a player and he’s been a very successful college and NFL coach.
October 5th, 2021 at 1:25 PM ^
I posed the question if Harbaugh was a lock as a "legend" to see what other people said since it wasn't obvious to me that JH is as slam dunk as Charles Woodson. The posts that fell on either side seemed to bear out that suspicion. And I think you can have different answers to the player side of JH vs the coach side of JH.
I think we might agree that Harbaugh was a really good player and has been a good coach. Does that make him elite or a legend? I think he's closer to that status as a player than as a coach (as was pointed out he was 2nd in Heisman voting - he played when I was at UM so I have fond memories of his success). I'd love for him to go undefeated, beat all rivals, and win B1G and National Championships. Until he does at least some of that I'd avoid calling him "elite" as a coach, but others can of course feel differently.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:43 AM ^
Bo must've called 47 draw plays to Jamie Morris in that half alone. Didnt work.
What? Keep calling the same running play over and over despite the fact that it doesn't work?
Hmm ... I know I've see that recently ... I just can't remember where ...
October 4th, 2021 at 12:00 PM ^
Bo should have been fired before every Rose Bowl and rehired the day after. That doesn't change the fact he is a legendary coach.
If you happened to see the graphic during the game on Michigan's Big 10 title droughts, the second longest was post WW2 to the early 60s. Without Bo this program may have become Ole Miss, Virginia, Minnesota or Cal. Damn good school, shame about the football program.
October 5th, 2021 at 1:28 PM ^
Ole Miss is a good school?
October 4th, 2021 at 5:27 PM ^
If Bo would have been willing to call a pass play on third and short just a half dozen times in his career, he could have won multiple national championships.
October 4th, 2021 at 12:36 PM ^
he would be universally considered a michigan legend if he'd never coached here. obviously. he doesn't lose that status because some people think his coaching tenure has been less great than expected.
October 4th, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^
I do. OSU guarantee victory alone is legendary. He’s also the second best Michigan QB in the pros all time behind the GOAT. Then he’s gone on to have really successful coaching careers in the pros and college (at Stanford, of all places).
October 4th, 2021 at 11:43 AM ^
With the exception of not yet taming the OSU juggernaut, he's right up there with Lloyd and Bo as a coach. By itself, the coaching career is good enough for me to call him "a great coach in Michigan history." If he takes down the juggernaut and restores respectability to the rivalry, or wins just one championship, I'd call him a legendary coach.
But yes, the fulfilled guarantee is just about the definition of legendary. That was never on the line with his coaching. It'd be like those who think that MJ's time with the Wizards or as an owner has diminished his on-court legendary status.
October 4th, 2021 at 10:58 AM ^
He is pretty damn famous. Led some really great teams as QB, was good as a NFL QB and coached a Super Bowl. I can't think of another match with our Alumni, Juwan would be the closest since he played, not coached, in a championship. I would consider Juwan a Michigan legend, 2x if he gets a NC as coach here.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:45 AM ^
Bill Freehan, maybe? Although Freehan was a better baseball player than Harbaugh was a football player.
October 4th, 2021 at 12:17 PM ^
Wait, if we're dipping into Baseball, I'm going Branch Rickey.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:01 AM ^
I mean he did play before he coached. A Heisman finalist isn’t too bad.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:04 AM ^
He appeared on, “Saved By The Bell” on top of everything else! WHAT MOAR DO YOU NEED TO SEE?!?
October 4th, 2021 at 11:11 AM ^
He was a Heisman finalist. Not sure why he wouldn't be up there.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:14 AM ^
We all have different standards for "legends." But if you have followed Michigan football for a long time, Harbaugh is probably a legend even before his coaching exploits. As others have indicated, he was a very, very successful QB in college (his talents finally forced Bo to really embrace a passing offense), made the OSU guarantee (and delivered), and went on to be a NFL All-Pro QB. Then had a very successful coaching career (NFL and college) and returned to Michigan. I would say that qualifies.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:30 AM ^
Harbaugh was probably the second most popular quarterback from the Schembechler years, only behind Rich Leach. He was also well received by the student section. In the 80's, the student section didn't mind booing you if they didn't like you. (Just ask Steve Smith.)
Heisman finalist, guaranteeing victory over OSU and then backing it up. He was already a legend here long before he was hired.
October 4th, 2021 at 1:41 PM ^
Harbaugh was far more popular than Leach.
I was there during the Leach years. Among the few throws he did have, he missed a lot of open receivers. The completion stats from back then are misleading. You rarely threw into decent coverage and coverage back then was full of mistakes compared to today. So all of his incompletions were bad throws to open receivers. Watching Leach throw was a constant replay of “damn, he missed another open receiver” and every time he went back to pass you felt like as if you were watching a field goal kicker lining up for a kick but who had missed his last five field goals.
Leach also always lost the last game of the season ruining the season.
The only positive about Leach is his record, but Michigan back then was purely a running team and what Leach did successfully was to hand the ball off and run the option. Dennis Franklyn was better at that and only after Leach is when Bo started passing the ball.
October 4th, 2021 at 4:40 PM ^
But leading us to 3 straight wins over Woody was pretty epic. And it wasn't Leach's fault that the dumbass ref called a touchdown when Charles White left the football behind on the 2 yard line.
October 4th, 2021 at 6:23 PM ^
They won from running the ball and having a dominant offensive line. Pure Bo. Make the OL the greatest QB then.
Just remember how nervous you always felt whenever Leach went back to pass. That’s not the definition of the greatest QB.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:15 AM ^
I'd argue Woodson is a top 5 most decorated football player of all time.
Ohio HS State Champion & Mr Football
All America at UM, Heisman winner, National Champion
#4 draft pick, defensive ROY 1998
2009 DPOY
2011 Superbowl Champion
2021 HOF
Plus all the sack and int combos that few others have. Complete resume IMO.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:49 AM ^
Woodson might have the most, um, famous "hurry" in NFL history. They even changed a rule because of it (about ten years later though)!
October 4th, 2021 at 1:42 PM ^
He’s nobody unless he coaches Michigan to an NCAA championship.
/s
October 4th, 2021 at 11:20 AM ^
He was a legend as a player. Hopefully he can reach that status as a coach.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:31 AM ^
He has done as much for UM as damn near any player in the modern era...he played at a high level, he was a leader on some great teams, he won a lot of games, he was a heisman finalist, he then went on to the pros and had a very good career...then as a coach...now back at UM and has helped to bring the program back from the brink.
Not many have done nearly that much for any program. And although his work outside of UM is not directly related (obv) it does add to what made him such a strong and visible force for the program within and without.
October 4th, 2021 at 12:15 PM ^
In my eyes, he’s a legend as a player. I was 12 in 1985 and just starting to get into football. That was the year Harbaugh led us to a 10-1-1 record, #2 national ranking and a win over Nebraska in the Fiesta Bowl. The only loss was a last second 10-9 loss at #1 Iowa when we were #2.
Harbaugh, Jamie Morris, Mark Hammerstein and Mark Messner are all legends of Michigan football to me as they represent some of my earliest Michigan football memories.
October 4th, 2021 at 1:01 PM ^
Iowa kicked the FG to win 12-10 but your point is still correct
October 4th, 2021 at 1:55 PM ^
This game is such a part of my formative football DNA I still instinctively want us to take the points rather than go for it in field goal range (unless you are inside the 5). If Iowa doesn't just "take the points" they lose that game and Michigan had a real chance at a title that year.
October 4th, 2021 at 2:19 PM ^
I was 10 and feel the same way. I was a fan as a little kid, but Harbaugh and Morris were the first two players I really recognized and followed by name.
October 4th, 2021 at 1:04 PM ^
The question you are posing here fits into the "If you have to ask and there is sound debate, then-no" category. His coaching stint here has been a negative in this regard-you cannot get pummeled repeatedly by OSU and be a Michigan football legend. Coach could get there if he turns things around-begins beating OSU, wins several B1G Championships and is competitive/wins at the CFP level. I would surely love to see such a recovery-and I'm just as sure that I have a multitude that joins me in this hope.
October 4th, 2021 at 2:20 PM ^
Let's just say hypothetically speaking that Jim guaranteed victory against Ohio State, and then went out and backed it up. Would that make him a legend to you?..it does for me
October 4th, 2021 at 5:16 PM ^
as a player?
YES, legend they only lost to OSU in 84 while he was on the team
won in 85 & 86 while he was the starter , guaranteed a win over osu in 86.
led the team to # 2 national ranking in 85 and led the nation in passing efficiency.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:13 AM ^
I was in Chicago for a Northwestern game. Took the train back from Evanston to the city and we were still in our Michigan gear. Went to a restaurant and told there was a 2 hour wait. As we were going to find someplace else, the owner came out and said, "We love Jim Harbaugh here in Chicago...I'll find you a table." We were seated immediately. That's legendary.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:13 AM ^
Football Player yes.
Coach not yet, but he still has time.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:17 AM ^
Not much time, if you listen to the active participants at MGoBlog.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:30 AM ^
The extra G is for giggity
October 4th, 2021 at 11:35 AM ^
If Harbaugh had gone into broadcasting after his pro career, like Woodson, instead of coaching, we would remember the 1985 and 1986 seasons, which were maybe Bo's best two seasons. Harbaugh was QB for both. You could argue he is the best Michigan QB of the modern era. He and Rick Leach are the only QBs to be top 3 in Heisman voting. He's a legend unless you are very, very tight in your definition. After the 3 Heisman winners, and some great players from the pre-Heisman era, Harbaugh is within the next group of greats. Only Brady and a few others have a comparable combination of individual and team success at Michigan, plus pro success to confirm it all.
October 4th, 2021 at 11:52 AM ^
Is he a legend as a player? Close, if nothing else other than garaunting a win against OSU and then doing it. Outside of that he didn't exactly light it up,although his senior year he did pass for over 2700 yards, so I would put him a tier lower as a player.
As a coach, he has not done anything to justify legendary status. Has not beaten OSU, he's .500 against MSU, Wisconsin and PSU, 1-4 in bowl games, no Big Ten East champion (outright), no Big Ten championship appearance, and no college football playoff appearance. He still has a chance to turn this around and become a legendary coach but he's got a bit of a hole to dig out of.
October 4th, 2021 at 12:56 PM ^
I went to my 1st UM game at home opener vs. Iowa in 1974 and was a student the fall 81- fall 85 (thankfully missed the 6-6 84 season as an intern out of state).
Harbaugh the player was the best runner/passer combo QB we had ever seen up to that time, Leach was a great option guy (and became a decent passer by 78). Dennis Franklin before him too. Wangler was the best pure passer during Bo's first 12 years when he took over as QB early in 1980, but Johnny had bum knee courtesy the great LT in the 1979 Gator Bowl. Steve Smith was a faster version of Leach but also so-so as a passer. Later on we had Michael Taylor (all option) and D Brown (7 picks at MSU), followed by mostly pocket QBs until Tate and Denard.
JH was 6-0 vs. ND, MSU, and OSU, including the guaranteed victory in 86. He also had a swagger about him, that backed up with 21 wins in his last 2 years, gives him honor status - not Woodson, Desmond, etc. but certainly high honors.
As coach, he's won everywhere he's been - but not the biggest game of all. I'm seeing last year now as like Bo's 84 season (6-6). This team has the same attitude and intensity of the 85 team. From the new coaches (MM, Mike Hart, etc.) to leadership on the field to winning games by bigger scores than expected (before the season I was worried we'd lose to both UW's by now). A lot of people predicted 6-6. Sure, a lot of tough games to come, including a major trap game against Martinez Saturday night, followed by at MSU, at PSU, and the big one at the end of the year.
Just win the Nebraska next - that's all I'm focused on.
p.s. if you want to get a good insight into UM's turnaround from 84 to 85, read Bo's lasting lessons. He clearly had great joy coaching that 85 team,
October 4th, 2021 at 5:21 PM ^
D. Brown could have become a legend had he not been forced out of school in 89 season.
in 87 he did have a bad year and didn't know how to read a defense or who to throw it to but in 88 he didn't throw ANY interceptions and led us to a win in the horseshoe and a Rose Bowl victory over USC.
had he been the QB in 89 we don't lose a game IMO and we have an very good passing game.
Taylor was a BAD QB other than running the option and that didn't get it done in the big games.
October 4th, 2021 at 5:00 PM ^
As far as I’m concerned Charles can wave a UM flag in person at every big game this year.