by telling Denard that he should transfer so that Hoke can bring in a pro-style QB in his first class.
Carr allegedly advised 2008 commit to flip to Iowa
Transferring comes with a much greater cost to the athlete than switiching commitments.
Shenanigans allegedly occurred derp four years ago derp returning to the Present thank you.
Assuming what Wienker says is true...
On the one hand there is "The Team" and doing things for the program. On the other hand there is not screwing kids over and lying to them about their future in the system. Was Carr supposed to tell the kid "Oh no, don't worry you'll do just fine."? Had he done that, the kid would have likely ended up as the third head on the Threet/Sheridan monster. An unhappy head that gets the hell beat of out it and transfers a year later.
A player Carr had been recruiting came to Carr because he trusted Carr and asked for his advice. Carr gave his honest view and that was 'look elsewhere'. I'd have been angrier to find out Carr was lying and abusing the trust the recruits were putting in him.
I still think the better response would be, "talk to Rich Rod and see what you think". I know they had a relationship and all, but the ideal response, IMO, would be to direct questions to RR directly and see how good his answers were.
It's also possible he told Carr that he wouldn't be signing with Michigan under any circumstances, and asked where he thought he might fit in elsewhere.
It all depends on what the kid asked really. He could have talked to RR and been asking Carr for a second opinion as a trusted figure.
Personally, given Wienke managed to removed himself entirely from the QB depth chart and is a three way battle for punter, I have to wonder if Carr was already regretting accepting Wienke's verbal based on Wienke's senior year. So the moment Wienke had a concern, Carr's response was "Yes, yes, decommit, the spread is bad!". Figuring it was better for Wienke to go to a lesser program and it freed up a spot for a RR guy.
For all we know, Carr called RR and said "Hey we have this pro style QB who is getting cold feet. Do you want me to nudge him out the door and free up a spot for you?". RR of course would have been confident in his ability to recruit so he likely would have said yes.
Basically its all about the lens you view Carr through. Unless you had a whole series of wireless mics in Schembechler Hall everything is lacking in context. No one knows what Carr and RR said about Wienke and the like, if there mutual agreements on how to encourage round pegs to go find round holes and the like.
if RR had a problem with Carr's actions. If he did, we're talking about something vastly different than giving Wienke a best opinion on a second option or helping RR with scholarship numbers by steering a recruit he didn't really want elsewhere. The theories in your post (and mine above) don't really get into that situation, so I don't see an issue with any of those scenarios, since RR would have been anywhere from actively involved or passivley okay with Carr's advice. So, in short, fine by me as long as RR was okay with it all.
... we don't know the whole story. However, Carr advising players/recruits that they might be better off somewhere else doesn't sit well with me, regardless of any reason any of you can conjure up.
Carr called RR during the coaching search and suggested to him that he consider the Michigan opening.....
Exerpt from Three and Out:
On Friday, December 7, and again on Monday, December 10, Bill Martin, Mary Sue Coleman and Les Miles talked on a conference call. Both conversations were simple and pleasant. During the second call, Coleman said she could not hire Miles without meeting him first, and asked Miles to meet her and Martin in Miami, where Miles had already scheduled a recruiting trip. Miles replied that he could not do any face-to-face meeting until after the national title game. Miles let them know both times, however, that, "If you want me, then after the bowl game, I will be your coach. I just can't do anything before that. [But] I would never say no to Michigan."
But, incredibly, just a few hours after both calls, word had leaked to the media, then started popping up on the blogs, and quickly traveled down to Baton Rouge. Miles was, understandably, upset -- and effectively boxed in.
That night, in what will likely come as a surprise to most fans, West Virginia head coach Rich Rodriguez -- whose Mountaineers had blown their own chance at the national title game when a 4-7 Pittsburgh team upset them 13-9 -- received a call from Michigan head coach Lloyd Carr. Rodriguez recalled they talked for ten or fifteen minutes.
"It was a very positive call," Rodriguez remembered. "He was definitely encouraging me to think about it."
That next day, the first person to encourage Bill Martin to think about Rich Rodriguez was none other than Lloyd Carr. (Carr did not respond to requests for an interview.)
That night, Bill Martin -- tipped off by Lloyd Carr -- called Rodriguez at his home to inquire about his interest in the Michigan job. Both sides were noncommittal but intrigued. Almost exactly a year after Rodriguez had turned down Alabama, he found himself flirting with the Michigan job. Six days later, on Monday, December 17, 2007, Bill Martin introduced Rich Rodriguez as Michigan's next coach.
Why endorse RR taking over a group of guys who's skillset wasn't necessarily condusive to his success, and then advise players that they might want to head elsewhere after he takes the job?
I don't buy into the "He's thinking about what's best for the player" mentality. Coaches may take this into account, but don't kid yourselves. Head coaches make decisions based on what's best for their progam (and their job security), and that's getting star recruits You don't turn away a 4 star QB beacuse you already have a 4 star committed and 3 more previously highly rated guys on your depth chart. You bring him in because depth is good for your team. Is it good for the guys who don't end up seeing the field but could start elsewhere? As a head coach, do you convince those guys to seek greener pastures (if you aren't worried about scholarship numbers)?
Carr's loyality should have been to Michigan and to the guy he reached out to consider taking over for him. The Carr influenced decommits and transfers might not have fit RR's system but they were skilled athletes who would have provided much needed depth.
And there is absolutely no way that RR says that he doesn't want one of Michigan's then current commitments with two months left before NSD and before he's even announced as the head coach. That notion is silly.
(just wanted to use 3 points in subject)
But have you read HTTV? Not because that's "right"....just because it thinks that a lot of what Bacon says is "wrong."
... that the exerpt that I quoted is inaccurate. There are other parts of the book that are certainly subjective, but this part seemed pretty black and white.
Does HTTV provide some particular evidence that suggests otherwise?
I don't want to give out a lot of their premium content, but the story M-Wolverine is talking about is pretty adamant that this call didn't happen, and that Carr wasn't involved enough to make that call.
Just haven't read completely through it. Will look into it later. Certainly curious as to the context on the rebuttal? Did it come from Carr or Martin or is it denial based on perceived plausibility? Bacon was masterful at persuading readers through inferrences and insinuations. However, this particular part was a detailed timeline based on RR's account of events. Unless the other parties involved say otherwise, I'm inclined to think that Bacon's account is closer to the truth. A phone call from Carr to RR is too important of a detail to remember incorrectly or to have misquoted.
And I'm not sure what all to believe either. Just answering the question posed, and it's definitely in the HTTV story.
But have you read HTTV? Not because that's "right"....just because it thinks that a lot of what Bacon says is "wrong."
And I don't think that's right, at all. There were a few differences, one thing where the two authors were told differently.
But you keep holding out the HTTV article as some authoritative rebuttal to Bacon, and I asked the powers that be about having an open forum/debate on that and they declined, thinking that it was not what was intended by anyone, and is not something that anyone was comfortable with.
Personally, I didn't see any big deal and no significant contradictions. The only reason that I wanted a fight, was because you seemed to be picking one. I wanted to give you the fight you were looking for. I was always confident that Bacon et al could back up what he wrote.
I got a kick out of this language - "you keep holding out the HTTV article as some authoritative rebuttal" - considering how often you refer to Three and Out as if it's some kind of holy text literally penned by God.
Whenever Carr, Brandon, or anybody else wants to do their own book, I'll be in line to buy it. And I'll be there for the author Q-and-A's.
You boys can write your own books too.
I'll never forget how Deadspin ridiculed this blog for going after Michael Rosenberg; calling us "fanboys." Who are the fanboys now?
You only see what you want to. Thus the quotation marks saying we don't really know who was right or who was wrong. I suspect a bit of both. If you don't see some flat out differences of opinions in the two works about what can and could have happened, I can't help you. You see what you want to see.
Bacon has had a lot of chance to let us know how he sourced conversations had by people who weren't talking to him, and people who were talking to him weren't a part of; or more importantly how he was embedded with the coaching staff but has no idea what was going on with the defensive staff. He's deftly dodged answering any of that stuff in a direct way. And it doesn't matter. You think this was uncovering Watergate, but it's just another sports book that will be in the bargin bin in another year. It made good press releasing it in the middle of the season, but no one who matters even cares about it anymore. I know you sleep with it under your pillow....good for you.
As for the why...I mainly ask it to tweak you because you thought that getting an advanced copy from a book signing made you some sort of insider with secret knowledge and you asked that to everyone before the book was even released knowing they couldn't have, and that somehow made you right. When most things have been shown to just be the opinions he was fed by Rich, and you've really based everything you believe off a certain point of view. Which is fine, as long as you're not fanatical about it.
on matters like the Jeff Casteel background, thanks to what came out through the book. I get it.
And when did I ever claim to be some sort of insider? I didn't.
It still doesn't make you right. And just like HTTV casts doubt on your bible, that you continue to ignore the fact that when he didn't want to leave WV for less money he didn't (Michigan) and that when he did want to leave WV for less money (Arizona) he did shows it wasn't as much about the money as you and Bacon's WV source claim as it was about not moving his family from a place he thought he was head coach in waiting and then moving when it became obvious he would NEVER be head coach. Not the money. But I know thinking otherwise would shatter the imaginary world you've created. So I'll await you spending all night looking for links in the investigative files you've created that no one will ever read but you. Have fun!
Edited: for Late night typing.
Why are you taking this book as absolute fact?
This is coming straight from Wienke, so I think this is pretty reliable. But honestly, I don't have a problem with this particular situation, as opposed to, say, Mallet . Unlike Mallet, Wienke wasn't going to help the '08 situation any, and he wasn't ever going to play in the spread-option.
If anything this provides some backstory that sheds better light on Carr. Yeah, signing blank-check transfer orders probably wasn't a cool thing to do, but this is a situation where it seems Carr could have been doing it out of genuine concern for the guys he recruited and cared about rather than a malicious intent to hamstring his successor.
Things aren't always as black-and-white as they seem. I think Carr's behavior through the transition was bad, but perhaps his motives weren't awful. Wienke certainly wouldn't have had it any better here than in Iowa City.
Plus, he saved RichRod the inevitable PR disaster which would have ensued from failing to honor the scholarship offer.
.... taking into account what's best for the player is not the top priority for head coaches at top football programs. Every coach for every relevant program would have the best 85 players in the country on scholarship if they could. Not all of those players are going to contribute, but it's not likely that a coach would be telling them to head elsewhere because it's in their best interest.
I don't doubt that Carr had some genuine concerns about the players now that he wasn't head coach. I certainly don't think he was intentionally trying to sabotage Michigan or RR. His mentality and priorities had changed.... but that doesn't make what he did right.
why? he got mallett in the first place by being honest... you want him to begin to lie? it was not a good fit, and thats what his dad asked lloyd. lloyd was being honest, as he should be.
I started to write a post about how it probably was the right move, and then I realized I just really don't give a shit.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOHOKE!
But if Carr honestly though that as the case, doesn't that make him a good person? Lloyd likely had a relationship with Weinke, and cared about his well-being. So isn't Lloyd putting the person first a good thing here?
I know it's not the best for the program and whatever, but we bitch when coaches put the best interests of the program ahead the recruits, so how can we complain when one of our coaches does the opposite?
In the long run, the best interest of the kid IS ALSO the best interest of the program.
Should Hoke have told Devin Gardner to transfer last year? He provided much needed depth behind Denard, but he
probably arguably would be better off elsewhere.
Ask Ryan Tannehill if he would have been better off transferring from T A&M as he sat behind 2 upperclassmen and played some WR his first couple years just to get on the field. He started one year... his 5th year. #8 pick in the draft.
I see your point... but telling a kid like Tannehill, or Gardner, to stick it out and learn the system because it will pay off in the end is much preferred.
I also bet you big money that Elliott Mealer is pretty damn happy that he didn't transfer to start somewhere else the last couple years. He's going to be a UM staring offensive lineman... 4 years after first putting on the winged helmet.
Would they all have been better off somewhere else? We'll never know... but we know they wouldn't be Wolverines. So, to me, (and obviously to Gardner and Mealer) that is more important than starting somewhere else your sophomore and/or junior years.
.... is not the same as playing behind someone with the same eligibility or more. Think Keith Nichol at Oklahoma.....
Regardless, I'm sure there are also examples of players finding success after deciding to stay with programs after a coaching change and a new offensive philosophy that didn't necessarily coincide with their perceived skillset.
"Back where I come from there are men who do nothing all day but good deeds. They are called phila…er, phila…er, yes, er, Good Deed Doers. "
With that being said, Lloyd Carr is the greatest phalantropist in this University's history (If you disagree, name me another person.)
You aren't even close. Now I must say that I don't know how much money Lloyd has donated to the University and the Medical Center/Mott Childrens' Hospital. But these donations dwarf Lloyd Carr's entire personal fortune whatever it may be:
- Stephen M. Ross ($100 million to the Business School)
- William Cook ($12 million to the Law School in 1930; $155 million in inflation-adjusted dollars)
- C.S. Mott -- yeah, that C.S. Mott ($6.5 to the Children's Hospital in 1965; $44 million in inflation-adjusted dollars)
So there are three. My guess is that Bill Martin has personally donated much greater amounts to the Unversity and to the Athletic Department, than Carr. Carr can't be within the top 100 living donors to the University.
What he has been, is a tremendous fundraiser for Mott. But Lloyd Carr is not exactly a philan- uh, phila- uh, Good Deed Doer.
Nobody forces you to come here.
Section 1 gets negged because he holds the Guiness World Record for beating dead horses.
You get negged because everyone knows who you are and remembers you from the multiple times you've been banned.
Hell, judging by this thread, I thought it was "Fight Club."
I honestly don't know but a couple of well worn sayings about the The Team, The Team, The Team and Those Who Stay Will Be Champions make me think he did the wrong thing here.
Maybe Carr felt obligated to tell Weinke (who would have been a 3rd string depth-guy, at best, for his program) to look elsewhere because he knew the kid would never play (in hindsight, he should have suggested MIami Ohio or Akron).
Stories of Carr telling potential starters to leave have proven essentially untrue. But if he was telling a kid who hadn't even put on a winged helmet that he'd be a better 3rd stringer somewhere else other than UM... I can't get upset over that.
The damage to the program from this transfer is incalculable. Wienke could have filled that huge need we have at Quarterback.
I mean, c'mon, he hasn't thrown nearly as many picks in the last three years. It's not even close.
I was just about to say the same thing. When I think of Wienke running the spread, well, I can barely control myself.
Sounds like he gave a kid good, sound advice...
I think a lot of the Carr hate comes from either a misunderstanding or difference of opinion regarding Carr's priorities. I always had the sense that the student-athletes' well being was more important to Carr that virtually everything else - including Michigan's football record. He wasn't going to ruin a kid's career (or life) just because doing so made Michigan slightly more likely to win football games. That's my impression, at least, and it's the view that I'd like to think I'd have as a head coach.
On the other hand, If you believe that Carr's obligation is to put Michigan before everything else, then he comes across as a traitor when he's looking out for people at the expense of the Michigan football program.
Just because someone thinks they were doing the right thing doesn't mean it is the correct or proper thing to do. Carr can try to help all he wants, but influencing personnell decisions before the next guy is introduced as the coach is not a good practice. It isn't so much this decision that irks me, it's the thought of him doing this with others that has me questioning the decision. It isn't as though he just drifted off quietly into his retirement. He took a job in the athletic department. His advice to recruits should have stopped the minute he announced he would be retiring at the end of the season.
story could cut both ways. At that point in time I think Carr was still on board with RR and even had been the one to suggest him. The "transfer papers" event could have been more motivational than degrading, more like "I don't want to hear anything about it, either you are in or you are out, and if you are out, don't let the door hit you on the way out." The incident is ambiguous at the very least.
Could be. After the bowl game against Florida, in the locker room Carr told his players something like, "Now go and finish what you started, and graduate." (It's probably somewhere on Youtube.) It sounded to me like a challenge to stick it out through the transition. I don't know why Bacon didn't mention this speech at all in the book.
Why's everyone hating on Carr? Even if he did advise them they'd have more success in a pro style, what's the big deal? He was being honest....
You should probably mention that Carr was right about Weinke having a better shot at starting at quarterback there. What good would his advice be if it was always "you should go to Michigan." Would he have started over Threet in 2008? Or even Sheridan? Maybe, but I can't think he would have made a very big difference that season to us. Meanwhile he would have been a total wrong fit unless his head coach was fired.
What is this 2008 you speak of? Who is Threet and Sheridan?
Bring out your dead horses!
Bring out your dead horses!
Kudos to Carr for being honest and giving a recruit good advice.
The article didn't say Carr encouraged him to transfer, but rather gave him good advice. He might have made his mind up before he talked to Carr.