Better Coaching Staff?: UM or OSU
In each of these five major aspects of modern college football coaching, which staff do you think is superior?
Recruiting Talent - recruiting rankings predict future success
Player Development - strength and conditioning, instilling fundamentals, avoiding attrition
Scheme - devising superior offensive and defensive tactics
Game Management - 4th down decisions, play calling, clock management
Public Relations - ability to handle the press, university administration, and alumni
Fergodsakes.
Oscar Meyer sucks weiners.
Recruiting: Ohio State
Player development: Ohio State
Scheme: Michigan
Game management: Michigan
Public relations: Michigan
Not saying you are wrong but how do you answer Michigan in terms of scheme and game management when OSU has the better record head to head and overall in the last few years? Unless recruiting and player development trumps everything which is hard to believe with teams like MSU who uses scheme and game management to their advantage to beat teams with more talent.
How can he say MIchigan leads in PR after the whole Gibbons nonsense?
after all the stupid things Gordon Gee and Gene Smith have said, and the numerous reports of smoke/fire that come out of that program, how can you not?
..because those people aren't part of the coaching staff...?
I don't think the coaching staff is responsible for PR
They are initially...
And do you really want to compare the PR moves of Smith (mishandled a scandal 3+ years ago) to Dave Brandon (daily middle finger to the students and fans)?
Dave Brandon doesn't move the meter at a national level, whereas basically everyone outside of Ohio looks at OSU as cheaters.
Also, OP basically describes the coaches' roles in PR right there.
RichRod might disagree.
Because (a) Gibbons was only a "PR nightmare" to the denizens of this blog; most places seemed to treat it as part of bigger issues dealing with sexual assaults on campus, but it didn't feel like the school handled it any better or worse than other schools, and (b) because every time OSU does anything they find a way to make themselves look horrible in the process. By all accounts OSU's administration absolutely blew it, repeatedly, with Tressel, and have had a number of issues dealing with player suspensions and brushes with the law. Not saying UM has been fantastic, but in the court of public opinion it definitely feels like OSU has the lower profile.
I believe in Doug Nussmeier.
This actually makes me feel very comforted <3
I believe in Magnus believing in Nussmeier.
I think that you think that I think that you think that I believe in you believing in Magnus believing in Nuss.
I think we need to see how successful Nussmeier is before we're able to answer these questions, since he's (i) new and (ii) a huge part of the coaching staff.
I don't fault the OP for posing the question - I just think it's premature.
Hoke is not the best game manager...Meyer gets the edge here. I've always thought Hoke is slightly overwhelmed with his knowledge and the duties of a HC.
...like Hoke as a man of character and how dedicated he is to Michigan. That said, IMHO I've never really felt like he is head coach material as he struggles through somewhat inarticulate interviews with frequent malapropisms and more importantly, the tendency to rely on his position coaches a bit too much for comfort. Perhaps the Peter Principle in action?? I think his optimal comfort zone would be as a position coach.
That said, I HOPE HE PROVES ME COMPLETELY WRONG THIS SEASON!
Any coach that doesn't heavily rely on their position coaches isn't a head coach for long. They are coaching 100+ players, at positions that are vastly different; every head coach in major college football heavily relies on their position coaches, to the point that there isn't a very significant difference between the amount.
In fact, you could argue, if anything, Hoke doesnt' rely enough on his position coaches, being that he has personally coached the NT position his first two years.
Saban is insanely involved in the process of every detail of his team. He may be the only one, but he's also the best one.
"I've never really felt like he is head coach material as he struggles through somewhat inarticulate interviews with frequent malapropisms."
I don't see what this has to do with being a head football coach. Face of the program blah blah blah, but I don't think it affects his ability to win football games, which is the thing that matters most.
...but Hoke's lack of grace could also be used among his players and staff, which could be confusing and counter-productive. Not saying that's the case and I understand perception is not necessarily a reality.
Meyer has the edge offensively; his defenses at OSU have been incredibly underwhelming, and it often feels like he barely understands what is going on out there.
Far too often people measure "game management" based on performance on the field, but that can be due to so many factors (such as talent and scheme) beyond simply a coach's undefined ability to "lead men". I don't think Hoke has shown particular adroitness in some games, but he's also the type of guy who isn't afraid to go for it on 4th down or call a specific defensive scheme in a tight situation. Hoke's problem is his teams haven't been that good the past couple of years, and while some of that should fall on his shoulders, there are a litany of reasons beyond his leadership for their struggles.
I watched a replay of the PSU game last year and Hoke made at least 6-7 egregious game management mistakes down the stretch. I don't have much of an opinion on Meyer's game management skills, but they have to be better than Brady Hoke's after watching that single game.
FWIW, I like Brady Hoke and I'm glad that he's at Michigan. He just really needs to put it together this year (even with the young OL). Hopefully Nuss is the answer.
for at least a field goal when he gets the ball back before the half. Hoke didn't even try when he picked up a first down running the ball and had a timeout with plenty of time.
And yet he also made some great calls and gutsy calls to nearly beat OSU last year and that incredible win against ND a couple of years ago at UTL. Hoke isn't great, but I can be just as selective as you to support a completely different narrative.
I admittedly don't watch much OSU, but was curious about you saying our game management is better. Given our inability to conduct a 2-minute drill to save our lives, and the cluster f***ery that was UM v Northwestern the last couple years... Can OSU's really be worse?
Hoke has definitely made some good/gutsy calls with fakes and going for it on 4th down, but the 2 minute drill continues to be sore spot. It's almost like they don't practice it and I know that has to be false.
So, are you saying Meyer and his staff are better recruiters than Hoke and his staff or that OSU has better recruiting than UM? Those are slightly different, because Ohio obviously has more talent than Michigan. So, the real question is could Hoke recruit as well as Meyer if he were at OSU and could Meyer recruit as well as Hoke if here were at Michigan. It's hard to argue against Meyer either way, but then again his last two stops have been at 2 of the more fertile recruiting states there are (Florida & Ohio).
We aren't even close. In Florida nobody considers us a top 25 team. 92.5 in Jax considers Ohio and FSU as SEC ready. We did have higher caliber recruiting classes. If we go .500 nobody will notice. Ohio could go undefeated and we wouldn't be surprised.
And we're probably the 24th best team (Top 25, BABY!). No worries, our recruiting will pay off soon.
Is what we've been saying for the past 7+ years
While I hope you're right, recruiting has never really been the issue. Even though Carr, Hoke, and RR recruited different styles of players, they were for the most part fairly consistent in their rankings. UM is often slightly behind OSU in recruiting, but if you tracked them for the past 10 years they are very similar. I think it has more to do with the coaching change, the attrition from RR, the lack of o-lineman recruits under RR, and the two vastly different styles of offense of the coaches. If RR ran a pro-style things would have looked different.
FSU is SEC ready? I'm so sick of this crock. FSU just won the national championship. The SEC isn't FSU ready.
Good to know a sports talk station in Jacksonville has a poor view of a team located 1,000 miles away. Personally, I think UCF is the 2nd-best team in the entire state of Florida, and that Miami (YTM) and Florida are immensely overrated.
Recruiting: ohio
Player development: ohio (and it's not even close)
Scheme: we haven't really seen a consistent scheme from this staff so.....ohio
Game management: ohio
Media relations: this one is kind of a tie. I think Hoke is better at handling he national media, but urban is amazing at pandering to his fan base
Regarding scheme?
Does defense count? If so, this is probably a Michigan win. Our defenses have been good. OSUs have not. And our offense was awful last year but decent the previous two.
Integrity: Michigan
Ethics: Michigan
Making a positive impact on young men's lives: Michigan
Developing leaders who do great things in life: Michigan
Michigan is not heads and shoulders above everyone else, as much as we'd like to think so
This thread is about Michigan vs Ohio, not Michigan vs the world.
the Gibbons crap? But then a ohio player gets busted for cocaine possesion and I guess we're on top of the B1G moral totem pole. Please, just stop with the integrity "holier than thou" stuff. I do believe our coaches try to go after guys with good character, but there's always going to be rotten bananas, no matter where you're at.
I like your rose colored glasses, but UM is just like every other school. We treat life changing decisions with 1 game suspensions. We cover up stories then act surprised and shocked that we would ever be accused of covering up the stories. I'm not saying we're worse than anyone else, but we're looking them in the eye.
Caveat: This conversation is probably premature since Hoke's staff has undergone such a significant reshuffle that we haven't been able to properly assess yet, but here goes....
Recruiting Talent - OSU - You can argue that recruiting at OSU is not nearly as challenging as it is at Michigan since you're the sole big player in a talent rich state, but you still have to keep your big targets at home and OSU for the most part hasn't lost many head-to-heads with Michigan in this department.
Player Development - Push - Both Hoke and Meyer haven't been around long enough to really assess this metric accurately. OSU has sent the most players to the NFL the past two years, but Michigan has been running a close 2nd in that time. Both programs have done a good job of keeping their recuits in the program thusfar as well. Development of talent along the DL and OL remains a concern for Michigan, but I'm still not ready to hand the award to Urban's crew quite yet.
Scheme - OSU - Slight edge to OSU in this regard. Meyer's teams score points and Michigan has just been inconsistent in this regard. Again, Nussmeier might come in this season and flip the script on this equation, but OSU has gone 24-2 under Meyer that past two seasons. Hard to argue against that kind of performance.
Game Management - Michigan - This is hard to compare since OSU hasn't been in nearly as many tight squeezes under Meyer as Michigan has during Hoke's tenure, but Brady seems comfortable with taking risks on 4th down without being reckless, and the decisions for the most part seem like the right ones. Even last year's two point conversoin call at the end of the OSU game seems like the right call even though the playcall was suspect and the execution was...well let's not pick at that scab.
Public Relations - Push - Both programs approach to the media is to keep information to a slow trickle and engage in mundane coachspeak. Both Hoke and Meyer seem to handle bad publicity pretty well with the occasional black mark. Again, I think OSU coaches have an easier time with this in Ohio since the media there are not really in the business of trying to dig up dirt on such a beloved institution compared to Michigan where you have...yeah, f#*k the Free Press.
Currently OSU has the better staff. That's not saying things can't change, but it's true at this moment.
In The Classroom: Michigan
In The Weight Room: Michigan
Being a Michigan Man: Michigan
Executing: :(
...at this point, OSU has an edge over us in every category. And probably a significant edge in most of them. We'll see what Hoke & co can do here in the next year or two.
I think the more interesting (and somewhat more humbling) comparison is with MSU. Who has the better staff along those categories: UoM or MSU?
Michigan's Coaching Staff vs. MSU
Recruiting - Michigan - This isn't even a contest. Michigan consistently pulls in better talent than Michigan State year-in and year-out. Despite all the snide remarks about MSU "recruiting nationally" and dominating the state, the truth is that, with few exceptions, Michigan gets the kids it wants from the state and around the country and MSU makes due with what it left.
Player Development - MSU - Hard to argue that State doesn't squeeze every last ounce of football out of every player they recruit. In the long run Hoke may flip the script on this, but right now, it's not a contest.
Scheme - Push - Sparty's version of Tresselball versus whatever the hell we're going to do under Nussmeier. I don't think either staff has demonstrated an advantage in this area despite MSU's head-to-head success against Michigan.
Game Management - Push - Hoke is cool with gambling on 4th down and Dantonio has "Little Giants". We called the wrong 2 point conversion play against OSU last year and Dantonio replaced Cook with Maxwell in the ND game. I think both staffs are pretty equivalent.
Public Relations - Michigan - This isn't even close either. Hoke's vanilla approach to the media is such that an offiside comment about Gardner not being the for certain starting QB during spring practice erupts into an internet firestorm. Dantonio meanwhile is prickly in a way that makes Lloyd Carr cringe, treating Michigan assistant coaches rudely, snide remarks about "where's the threat?", and generally coming off as an immature dick. His handling of Glenn Winston, Nerdgate, and so on eclipses anything that Michigan's dealt with during Hokes tenure. The only thing keeping Dantonio in good standing from a PR perspective is his team's performance on the field, which if that takes a turn for the worse....suddenly all the other things will probably become a much bigger deal.