Baylor Culture and Rooting Interest
Curious if anyone else is having a tough time rooting for Baylor tonight due to their FB program’s recent history of violence and rape against women? Maybe I’m being a bit too much guilt by association, or is it really a culture problem within the AD? IDK, just thought I’d get some feedback on the issue.
For context and those that forgot.... https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/baylor-investigation-uncovers-52-acts-rape-31-football/story?id=45100633
I am a Michigan fan, so I root for Michigan teams.
Did you stop rooting for the UM football team after the Brendan Gibbons/Lewan story of violence towards women? Do we tie that to the basketball program too? Clown post.
Regardless of whether or not you care about Baylor's football scandal in relation to their basketball team, what was going on under Briles is magnitudes worse than what happened with Gibbons under Hoke.
Ok then let’s talk about the Dr. Robert Anderson era under Bo? Are we doing apples to apples here on quantity or quality of what it is? Get off your virtue signaling high horse. Especially when Michigan’s program/AD’s history isn’t clean either.
If you just said that Baylor's current basketball program shouldn't made guilty by association, I think that would be a valid enough point. But it feels like you're trying to say that what went down there under Briles/Bliss was par for the course.
there's no better indication of a clown post than the use of the phrase "virtue signaling."
pro tip: next time go for the trifecta and drop in "social justice warrior" and "cancel culture."
the Virtual Signaling High Horse Beta Cuck School of Clowning Woke Social Justice Warriors
You can say that again!
Don’t forget to end it by calling him a soy boy. You will totally own him then
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You take things too literally
You forgot to add “woke” as the latest trigger phrase.
There's no better indication of a virtue signaler than someone who uses phrases like "clown post" and altogether dismisses phenomena such as virtue signaling, social justice warriors, and cancel culture.
For the record, comparing rape and molestation is insanely stupid though. This thread is a tire fire. Yes OP, we remember the Baylor rape scandal. I'm not "rooting" for anyone in this game, but I'm also not going around insinuating that people who root for Baylor are condoning what happened with the football program. It's pathetic how Michigan fans giddily admonished scandals from other programs but then apathetically shrugged off Bo's own scandal. As far as I know, Schembechler Hall remains Schembechler Hall. Nobody seems to see that as an endorsement of covering up decades of player molestation by a team doctor though.
There's no better indication of a virtue signaler than someone who uses phrases like "clown post" and altogether dismisses phenomena such as virtue signaling, social justice warriors, and cancel culture
lol wut
It wasn’t supposed to make sense, just like the post I responded to. Virtue signaling is a thing, and how people perceive it often demonstrates what their political beliefs are. I get it, you think everyone who disagrees with you is a clown. You sure really nailed that guy, what a great argument you have there.
It wasn’t supposed to make sense
I don't believe you
Virtue signaling is a thing, and how people perceive it often demonstrates what their political beliefs are
Is this an insinuation that only one side "virtue signals?" Pretty sure only one side has a boner for the American flag, national anthem, and pledge of allegiance, which are all just symbolic, nationalistic nonsense
I was clearly mocking the “there’s no better indication of _______” phrase, but whatever, believe what you want.
As for virtue signaling, sure you could call plenty of what the right does virtue signaling, although your example is kinda stupid because people typically just call it nationalism or flag-waving. I’m not gonna argue more on this point because it’s obvious there is a disparity in how the term “virtue signaling” is employed.
Pretty sure only one side has a boner for the American flag, national anthem, and pledge of allegiance, which are all just symbolic, nationalistic nonsense."
i would agree, and while it's true both sides have their hobby horses, only one side uses "virtue signaling" as an epithet.
the implication - that any disagreement on an issue with social / societal implications is literally nothing more than an attempt to show other people how 'woke' you are - is an extremely lazy argument.
Holy smokes did you go off center. No one implied that rooting for Baylor = condoning sexual assault. Wow.
To me, rooting for them to look at a championship banner with pride just feels wrong to me after what has happened in that athletic dept. That’s all and I was wondering if anyone else got that same disdain. You’re ridiculous.
When did "virtue signaling" become a bad thing? Like since when is upholding and promoting positive traits and causes considered a bad thing?
Because it’s obnoxious. Nobody thinks what happened at Baylor is okay, we don’t need people to preach about it every time Baylor teams play a game.
"Nobody thinks what happens repeatedly at Baylor is OK, we just don't think that it should inform anyone's opinion of the organizational entities involved, and it hurts our feelings when someone else does."
Idgaf about Baylor or people talking shit about Baylor. But these posts are obnoxious because they always become a “when did you stop beating your wife?” circle jerk directed at some fan base. And I find it interesting that there weren’t mass calls to rename Canham Natatorium and Schembechler Hall after it came out that those two guys covered up molestation of potentially hundreds of players over decades. Should I post about that every other day? Or are you in support of molesting athletes?
You seem to think that the concept of public morality is a category error. Which is unfortunate.
Wtf are you even trying to say? I’m not sure what you’re trying to call “public morality” here, but for the record, I don’t think morality is something that only occurs in the private sphere. But I do think Michigan fans are obnoxious hypocrites whenever these scandals get brought up.
I'm trying to say that you seem to find it implausible that someone could find moral fault with Baylor as in institution without engaging in rank hypocrisy or moral grandstanding. And that this position is profoundly stupid.
Now you're affirming the consequent. I definitely don't find it implausible in general. But in the specific case of the blowhard Michigan fans on this message board, who constantly decry other scandals while mostly shrugging off the one involving Bo and Canham, I absolutely do think they are engaging in rank hypocrisy and moral grandstanding. No, I don't seriously think anyone here endorses molestation of athletes, but relative to other scandals there was very, very little public or institutional response to the Bo Scandal. Obviously the pandemic drowned out a lot of stories last year, but even so, there is a strong argument to be made that Bo's name and statue should be removed from Schembechler Hall, and that Canham Natatorium be renamed. Those things didn't happen, and I think it shows how much fans really care about these scandals vs. how much they just want to participate in moral grandstanding.
This argument that we can't legitimately condemn Baylor's vast record of scumbaggery unless and until we fully reckon with Bo's legacy would carry a little more weight if it weren't coming from a guy named "bo_lives".
there is a strong argument to be made that Bo's name and statue should be removed from Schembechler Hall, and that Canham Natatorium be renamed.
agree completely.
the whole "let's put up a statue of the football coach" thing is just bizarre to me. it turns them into quasi-religious figures. the naming of facilities is weird to me, too, although i get the impulse to honor the contributions of an individual in a concrete, (semi-)permanent way.
Upholding positive values and stances is obnoxious? Sorry, forgot that it's become trendy for some people to only uphold negative values and a warped idea of patriotism
upholding and promoting positive traits
Promoting and especially upholding requires that a person be virtuous. Merely signaling does not.
The problem with "virtue signaling" as a culture war token, though, is it seems to get applied in ways that rule out even the possibility of genuinely held normative beliefs. Is it really your position that nobody holds a genuine belief that the Baylor AD was a hive of scum and villainy in very recent memory, and that there ought to be some real cost for that?
And yet you just virtue signalled.
You’re comparing a one-time incident that was handled poorly by the football program/ad at Michigan to years of systemic coverups of many rapes/sexual assaults by football players. It’s not apples to apples. On top of that, in thr 90s a Baylor basketball player was killed by a teammate and the ad/coach tried to cover it up. Try knowing something about what you’re talking about before spouting off next time
To set the record straight here (not that I think it's relevant in any way to the current program or staff, except that it highlights the depths Drew had to lift that program out of):
I think Dave Bliss is one of the most contemptible people ever to pick up a whistle, but he did NOT try to cover up the murder; he tried to cover up the source of the cash found on the victim.
I almost wish it was the other--there could at least be some twisted and utterly misguided honor in trying to protect someone. But here's a guy who's just had one of his players get murdered, and he thinks not of the victim or the victim's friends or family or of anyone involved in any way in the situation, but only of himself. A man you recruited and coached has been killed and you throw him under the bus by lying to the authorities, saying he was dealing drugs. And then you have the gall to ask his former teammates and coaches to back you up. And for no other reason than to protect your job by hiding the fact you were paying him. How much lower does it get than that?
That was an individual. This was systemic.
Clown post, yes I agree. Yours that is.
You mean the sexual assault claim that was adjudicated twice and, once Gibbons was found guilty the second time, was dismissed from the school? Because if memory serves me right, a no point did Brady Hoke try to cover up that assault, threaten the victims, or otherwise run a lawless program. And while I think Lewan is an asshole, the entire Lewan "story" is (and this is based on a single police report from an unnamed witness who said she heard someone say he said something) that he made some awful remarks toward the victim. I'm not excusing him but if we're going to conflate his words with at least 19 different sexual misconduct accusations, we shouldn't root for any team anywhere because "being a sexist asshole" is universal.
Gibbons was never found "guilty" of anything stemming from the incident you brought up (notwithstanding what happened at some Title IX hearing) and Lewan was never charged with anything surrounding the incident either yet it seems about 75% of people confuse Lewan getting arrested for slugging a buckeye fan at a bar with this.
I follow BIG and PAC 12 College Basketball, but don’t really know anything about Baylor or find them particularly interesting. All I know is after Michigan forward Ekpe Udoh transferred there in 2008 or 2009, they always seem to have a good basketball team. Go Zags.
The problem with the Briles coverups is that it reached throughout the entire Ath Dept, it wasn't limited to just football. Nonetheless, despite the shitty 'investigation' back then, I don't believe those same coverups are still a thing. Could well be wrong, but I suspect all of the people in charge then are no longer in charge. So I wouldn't call it a 'culture problem' that currently exists in the Dept.
I can accept that they have a tremendously talented bball team, and that they are (most likely) upstanding people all. However, the hypocritically ironic attitude previously (?) displayed towards women on that campus was as disgusting then as it would be today. And in all their righteous glory, all their praising of god that everyone should be treated equally, they didn't treat people equally. And they tried like hell to cover up the fact that they didn't.
I want Gonzaga to win because I think that program has paid it's dues. And while I don't think yesterdays issues at Baylor can be held against this team, I still think the school represents pious hypocrites.
There's also the scandal involving the actual basketball team under David Bliss from the early 2000's in which one player literally murdered a teammate.
When Baylor's athletic department does something shitty, they certainly go big.
It's almost as if they have an entitlement issue that they then fail to address or something
This to me is one of the more incredible things about what Scott Drew has accomplished at Baylor. When he took over the program, it was one of the most toxic jobs in all of college basketball... as you pointed out, a former player literally murdered a teammate and there were other violations as well.
Nevertheless, he took the job and built back the program (I think there were a few seasons there were they could only play conference games) and seems to have done it the right way.
I think both Drew and Few are good coaches, but I'm going with Baylor tonight. The Zags haven't played as many top matchup games as the Bears and they narrowly pulled out victories in the two that they did play.
You left out the part where the coach tried to cover it up by falsely claiming the murdered player was a drug dealer.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck Baylor, why would anyone besides an IU fan root against Gonzaga here?
Do you root for UM basketball after the Dr Anderson scandal? Or are you just virtue signaling for the Mgoblue board.?
I guess we've found Denarded's burner account.
You guys and your reflexive "virtue signaling" insult.
Anyway, I'd be fine if non-UM fans didn't "root" for UM if they found the handling of Anderson odious. Totally understandable. But if your argument is that nobody can be offended by rampant sexual assaults and cover-ups by a school because their own school did something similar, then nobody should be rooting for sports.
I’m rooting for an entertaining game that ends before midnight.
Based on a few of the replies, I swear some folks here just wake up looking for an internet fight.