Anyone else think this years D-Line is better than last years?
Coach Hoke answers question:
Does the defensive front have the potential to be as good as last year's? I think so. I know we think so. I think Greg [Mattison] and Jerry [Montgomery] would tell you the same thing
Hoke, Mattison, and Montgomery think this years Defensive Line can be as good as last years. I think it can be better; It's certainly more talented
BWC is as talented or more talented than Mike Martin, and all signs point to his senior season being a breakout one.
Black and Roh are more talented than Van Bergen and Heinenger
We are probably losing some on the end with Clark out and Beyer starting for the first time, compared to what Roh was able to deliver, even though Roh was playing out of position. If Clark is able to get back early in the season, I think the End position will be good.
One reason I think this years D-Line can be better is summed up in 2 words: Ondre Pipkins
When I watched the match-up between Pipkins and 4th year all BIG caliber tackle Michael Schofield, I was impressed. The collision between the two was ferocious, then Pipkins drove Schofield to his knees, shed the block, and made the tackle. Incredible to watch an 18 year old that advanced physically. I don't see anyway Pipkins doesn't see significant playing time early in the season, and by the end of the season, Pipkins and Big Will will be a formidable duo on the inside.
By the way: Nobody knows it, but Pee Wee can dunk.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:46 PM ^
but I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. suh was on a whole different level than even martin but I would love if BWC came anywhere close to either of them this season
August 16th, 2012 at 7:53 PM ^
As far as DL....we might be a little stronger in size and all...but I dont expect as many plays from them as we got from MM/RVB last year.
However, I truly think our LB's will take a huge step forward and more than carry the load this season.
WR is also a position I'm not really worried about and I also think that DG is going to play a lot more WR then the coaches have let on to the public. I wouldn't be surprised if RR, Gallon and DG are starting against Bama.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:54 PM ^
Brennen Beyer, Keith Heitzman, and Craig Roh standing with Nathan Brink.
RVB compared to Jibreel Black we downgraded in size about 10 pounds or so, but Black is shorter, too, so might get slightly better leverage, and might be more athletic, but at DE we are definitely upgrading over last year in size and strength.
August 16th, 2012 at 7:53 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 7:56 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 8:04 PM ^
Care to fill us in?
August 16th, 2012 at 8:34 PM ^
He is apparently visiting Auburn and Georgia this weekend.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:15 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 7:59 PM ^
Martin and Van Bergen were senior multi-year starters who were so savvy that by late in the season (specifically against Ohio) they were running their own stunts, etc. BWC and Black are first-year starters, Black at a new position. Martin was such a tremendous penetrator that they came up with more big short-yardage stops than any Michigan defense in years. I can't see this year's group matching last year's. If they stay healthy enough to gel, they have a lot of potential. But early on in particular, they may struggle.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:36 PM ^
that belongs on a t-shirt
August 16th, 2012 at 8:40 PM ^
It's on a T-shirt. My wife gave it to me.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:42 PM ^
Weird, she gave one to me too...
August 16th, 2012 at 8:57 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 9:17 PM ^
Not funny. Joking about infidelity is one thing, but ED ruins families.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:04 PM ^
We're replacing two multi-year starters with total question marks.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:08 PM ^
But not total question marks, right? It's not like they're being replaced by guys who've never seen PT before. Both Black and BWC saw a good amount of time as rotation guys the last couple years. They're first year starters, but they aren't all that green.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:20 PM ^
Black is making a pretty significant position change. He is athletic, but I'm not sure if he is best suited for playing inside.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:15 PM ^
Hoke isn't going to say anything racy, but he keeps alluding to the increase in talent provided by this years freshman class. God bless RVB and Heinenger but they aren't physically as talented as the kids Hoke is bringing in. This isn't a shot at Carr and RR, but they weren't recruiting to the level of what Hoke is.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:41 PM ^
I give BWC a 1/10 chance to be what Martin was last year and much less than that to be better. Roh and Black could very well be better on the interior than what we had last year, but at the same time they are both very unproven at that position and could just as easily bust. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of those two not work out, thus we struggle a bit at that position early before Pipkins comes on strong the second half of the season. I am very optimistic about our end play, I think there is a very good chance we are better there.
Overall, yeah our line could be better, chances are they fall slightly short but do a respectable job. The real story will be the improvement of our LB core and secondary though.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:23 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 8:25 PM ^
What? No. I never even considered the possibility. No one stands out to me on this Dline the way Mike Martin or Brandon Graham did.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:36 PM ^
I don't think that there is any way that the D-Line is actually better than last year. The good news is, with practically everyone back from the LB's and secondary, if they continue to improve, the D-Line could at least SEEM to be about as good, becasue they won't have to contribute so much.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:42 PM ^
BWC's second year at the same position, with the same DC. Given the situations the kid was in for his freshman and sophomore years, if he has a shot at living up to his potential this would be the year. Mike Martin left big shoes to fill, but Hoke and Mattison will extract everything that can be gotten out of BWC. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:37 PM ^
In case anyone is interested, the average season production of the 2011 defensive line in a few basic categories is as follows:
- Individually, the front four averaged 20 solo tackles and 25 assisted tackles. (max. 25 solo tackles and 44 assisted tackles)
- Each player averaged 8 tackles for loss with an average of 33 yards (max. 12.5 TFL for 55 total yards)
- Each player averaged 4 sacks with an average of 23 sack yards (max. 5.5 tackles for 35 total yards)
Essentially, this would be the approximate benchmark for this year's defensive line. If they can be that disruptive and effective up front, then they are basically "as good" as last year's line. I will say, however, that with the relative athleticism of this line and the fact that there is still some experience starting here (counting guys who saw playing time in rotation), as others have pointed out, it might be possible for them to at least come within earshot of this sort of performance.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:46 PM ^
You can make predictions, but it's way too early to claim they will be better! I hope for the best.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:51 PM ^
Stop it.
August 16th, 2012 at 8:56 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 9:13 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 9:14 PM ^
Roh is on par with Van Bergen.
Campbell is worse than Martin.
Black is probably a slight upgrade over Heininger.
Beyer is probably on par with Roh.
So...is Michigan's DL better? No. Is it a huge dropoff? Eh...maybe. Martin was the key player, so the dropoff there is the one that should concern us.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:37 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 9:41 PM ^
August 16th, 2012 at 10:04 PM ^
I like BWC and hope he excels on the field but he is no Mike Martin. They're two different defensive lineman in my oppinion. Mike Martin showed signs and flashes of being a dominant defensive lineman his first two years; BWC has not. BWC will be an effective run-stuffer but his lack of strength and quickness off the line leads me to believe he'll be good but not dominant.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:22 PM ^
I don't think there is really too much of a question about BWC and MM as many people have already pointed out how great of an athlete MM was his senior year and how disruptive he was at nose. However, I also think that the OP and many other people are underestimating the impact that RVB had in the game. He was not as pysically talented but I recal from several different sources hearing about his intelligence and his leadership. MM himself said that RVB would call out the plays that our opponents were about to run because he watched so much game film and Greg Mattison even trusted him enough to allow him to call out stunts on the line. That kind of football smarts can go a long way to improving production. This is especially true on the line where communication is critical. I am not sure with the inexperience on this years line if anyone can really fill that role for the team.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:39 PM ^
I like Roh...but in his 3 years as a starter...I can not recall one big play that he has made. Anyone?
August 16th, 2012 at 10:54 PM ^
in the SDSU game last year. I was impressed.
August 17th, 2012 at 4:40 AM ^
Thanks for reminding of that play. I hope this is his year in the new position. BWC has made several big plays in his limited time...
August 16th, 2012 at 10:42 PM ^
I'm glad to see it looks like Pip will be a stud, but I have to remind myself to pump the breaks everytime I think that his first game, in all liklihood, will be against the cast of All-Americans that is the Alabama offensive line.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:55 PM ^
how this DL compares to last season. I think by the end of the year they will be a much better group than at the beginning. I hope they improve enough to dominate the B1G!!! It will be great to shut teams down again!
August 16th, 2012 at 11:31 PM ^
Did you wake up in a crack house this morning?
Let's revisit this topic Sept. 2nd.
August 17th, 2012 at 12:13 AM ^
I think it is doubtful the DL will be better, but it is possible. So much hinges on BWC. The rest are probably a slight uptick from last year. I am very dubious that Big Will is going to be an improvement over Martin. But with his physical attributes, it is possible.
August 17th, 2012 at 12:54 AM ^
this is exactly why you don't do drugs
August 17th, 2012 at 1:38 AM ^
I doubt that this year's D-Line will be better, or as good as last years line. I don't think it will be as catastophic as some people think. I'm really looking forward to the next few years, when Pipkins, Wormley, etc. get their playing time. I'm excited to see Pipkins play this year too, even if most of his time will come against our less talented opponents.
August 17th, 2012 at 3:12 AM ^
One thing BWC has done in games fairly well is get his hands up in the passing lanes very well. I feel like Mike Martin never had that many batted passes but BWC did a good job at that.
Ok, I looked it up. MM never had one batted pass. BWC has had 4 in 3 years. 1 last year against Purdue, 2011 Bowling Green, 2010 Delaware State and Wisconsin.
I guess that's not as many as I had remembered. Maybe just because he's tall and has gigantic hands he covers a lot of airspace. This is my hypothesis.
August 17th, 2012 at 8:07 AM ^
As strange as this sounds, that may not be a good thing (more batted passes).
August 17th, 2012 at 3:26 AM ^
Last year we got most of our defensive production from the interior linemen, this year we might get most of it from our ends. We lost our anchor in the middle, but we upgraded slightly across the rest of the line, and with this being the second year for these players in the system, and Demens, and Ryan improving, and Morgan not being a true freshman now, I think our TFL's, hurries, and sacks could increase over last years numbers. BWC may not be Mike Martin, but it might not matter...
August 17th, 2012 at 9:07 AM ^
The thread should have been. "Is it possible this years defensive line will be better than the tire fire that some were fearing at the end of last year"
Yes.
To compare Will Campbell to Mike Martin at this point is simply insane. Comparison would be on a scale of 1 to 10 based on the data we've seen with our eyes during games vs the magical maize preseason dust.
NT Martin 8.5 vs Campbell 4
SDE RVB 6.5 vs Roh 5
DT Heininger 4 vs Black 4
WDE Roh 5 vs Beyer 3
11 wins 24 to 16.
August 17th, 2012 at 9:59 AM ^
Unless Pipkins is Vince Woolfolk II. I think minimum regression on the D line is the best outcome.
August 17th, 2012 at 10:11 AM ^
"Vince Woolfolk II."
My mind is blown.
August 17th, 2012 at 11:22 AM ^
Well, since he is the son of Zoltan, maybe Wilfork had a name change and told him about in training camp. Or maybe Butch changed his first name, but he would have been skinny for a nose tackle. Ditto Troy. I'm sure there is a logical explnation out there.