Added perspective on our amazing BBall season
Our squad is ranked 2nd nationally on KenPom and among the 10 best teams in the history of the site. Our current rating is higher than Nova’s rating when they beat us for the title. That Nova squad won all its tourney games by double digits.
We might be the best college basketball team I've ever had the privilege to watch play.
Definitely the best Michigan team I've ever seen.
I think that is a hard argument to make right now. The Glenn Rice, Gary Grant, T Mills, etc. national championship team was amazing and there are obviously some historic teams out there. That said, this team does have a special feel to it. A lot of our players feel like they have the ability to elevate their games during the playoffs. If that happens they could be a historic team.
Edit: and the Fab 5 changed college basketball forever. It's hard to compete with that.
Well to he fair I was 8 when we won the 'Ship in 89 so my memory is a little hazy.
And I absolutely adored the fab five. I've worn black socks since I was 12 years old because of the fab five. I was a sports fan before those guys arrived on campus but they turned me into a insane sports mega fan.
All that being said, I'd take this years team to win every time. Neither the 89 team or the Fab Fives team were ever as consistently crisp as we are this year
Sorry for the long stoned rambling response
That ‘89 squad will always be special to me. It was tough and also skilled. Glen Rice had a tourney for the ages!
I was too young to appreciate the ‘89 team, and loved the fab five just like you. this team is better than the FF, and it’s not all that close.
This squad has destroyed all comers, except minny (down a starter) and osu (who got about 10-12 points directly from the refs and still lost by 5). They may lack the FF’s cultural significance and don’t have a single player as freakishly dominant as cWebb, but this team is better
User name, black socks almost check out.
Grant wasn't on the '89 team (he graduated the year before) but that team was stacked all the same.
While I agree the 1989 National Championship team has to be at the top of the list of best Michigan Teams ever, Gary Grant was not on that team. He graduated the year prior. Rumeal Robinson was running the show.
Without looking, I'm going to surmise that Gonzaga is the #1 team on KenPom. Which means that they also are one of the 10 best in the history of that site. I guess it also means that the Zags are also rated higher than that title winning Nova team that won all of its games by double digits.
Let us not get in front of ourselves...
Nonetheless, I do believe Howard has a better team - by individual player, depth, and team-i-ness - than Mark Few has...
All of what you said may be true but that doesn’t diminish the season we’ve had to this point.
The current Gonzaga team has a top-3 AEM in the history of Kenpom, just behind 2015 Kentucky and just above 2008 Kansas.
"Let us not get in front of ourselves..."
This x 1000.
We, as fans, can’t ‘get ahead of ourselves’. We’re not responsible for game preparation, scouting, training, or literally anything else that’s relevant to the team’s success. While it would be a huge problem if the team/coaches did so, we’re free to look as far ahead as we want.
Bingo!
Fair point, Detroit Blue. Which spot are you sitting at on the victory parade route?
I've been thinking about that team, especially relative to this year's team....as well as relative to the Michigan team they beat. They were better than us that night. No doubt. But I do think this team is better than both of those teams, based on eye test and results on the court. Now, does that mean we'll win it all this year? Of course it does!
Transitive property at its finest!!?
This season is shaping up to look a lot like the 2015 season, where 3 #1 seeds made the Final Four. That was the season Kentucky dominated with a freshman-heavy lineup with KAT, Devin Booker, Trey Lyles, Tyler Ulis, and the Harrison twins (who were sophomores that season).
UK's 2015 Kenpom EM is similar to Gonzaga's this year, and Wisconsin's 2015 EM is similar to Michigan's. A Gonzaga/UM matchup in the championship game could be an all-timer.
I'm not sure about Baylor. That covid-break sure knocked them off of their games. I could see them getting upset if they don't get back to form.
I'll try to add some perspective here, as there seems to be some adversarial debate going on with respect to how good this year's team is.
I think some may be measuring how good this year's team is within the specific context of the competition we face for this season only...........in other words is this year's team more dominant in relation to X/Y/Z year?
But I think if we're going to compare teams with the question essentially being "Is this the best Michigan team of all time", the better measurement is to compare teams across years (I know, we can't really do to that from a quantitative standpoint).
All that to say, the metrics in any given year are dependent on how strong/weak the competition is during that year. So basically, we're left with the eye test when comparing across years.
In my opinion, I don't think there's any question that CBB in general is a very weak product right now in terms of quality/talent. Reasonable minds can differ of course, just my two cents.
Kinda contradicts the fact that the Big Ten this year is rated the best conference in the KenPom era.
Not really, because it’s the best team in the KP era given that each year’s metrics are dependent exclusively on the competition faced within that year.
In other words, KP can’t hypothetically project metrics if let’s say, the Fab 5 were inserted into the 20-21 season.
In sum, the KP metrics don’t measure across years because that is not possible. So we’re left with the eye test.
Probably true considering players routinely stayed for 3, 4 years 20-30 years ago.
This is exactly right.
Rice would've never stayed for his senior year.
Webber, Rose and Howard would all have been "one and dones" in today's era.
I know what the metrics, numbers and records look like, but I just can't see this team competing with the '89 or '93 teams...or even the '13 team for that matter.
Hold up...
2013 team?
I think people have become too rosy-eyed about the 2013 team. Yes, that team was stacked with future pros but that team had some WTF moments and inconsistencies.
I'm somewhat confident the 2021 team would win a best of 7 series against the 2013 team.
This is definitely one of the best Michigan teams we've ever seen. That said:
We may want to keep in mind that comparing Kenpom ratings from this year with past years is somewhat apples/oranges due to the much reduced non-conference schedule. Normally we'd play 12-13 non-conference games, most of them against weak opposition, and this would drag down our schedule strength. This year we played just five.
Also, while the Big Ten is strong overall, we've ended up having a very favorable league schedule, playing Illinois, Iowa, OSU and Purdue just once apiece (and the game against the Illini hasn't happened yet).
For now let's just say this has been a really good year, and hope it continues like this.
I'm going to have to disagree. The Kenpom rankings will hold up when comparing year to year, regardless of the shortened out of conference schedule.
Your assumption about most of the non-con games being against weak opposition is not accurate. Michigan was set to compete in the Empire Classic tournament; a weekend featuring matchups with Villanova, Baylor, and NC State. These are teams currently ranked #3, #10, and #71 according to Kenpom.
Also, we can parse out how well the rankings match between this shortened season and a full season. The average Kenpom ranking of teams M played in last year's OOC schedule was #147 according to Kenpom. Of course there are huge variations in level of competition. For example, they played Gonzaga, Louisville and Oregon, teams that finished at #2, #9, and #17 in Kenpom. They also played teams like Houston Baptist, UMass Lowell, and Presbyterian, all teams that finished #275 or worse in Kenpom.
The average Kenpom ranking of teams played in this year's OOC schedule? #125 according to Kenpom; that is not significantly different from last year's average OOC opponent ranking. Now, if you were to add back in the Empire Class matchups, against the teams ranked #3, #10, and #71, then threw in a few other cupcakes, the average Kenpom ranking of OOC opponents would likely still be on par with last year's ranking(s). So the assertion that comparing between this year and previous years just doesn't hold up IMO.
Also, which teams have that much tougher of a schedule? Illinois has to play OSU and Wisconsin twice, but they only played Iowa, Michigan and Purdue once each. Iowa also has to play OSU twice, in addition to playing Purdue and Wisconsin twice, but play Michigan and Illinois once a piece. OSU plays Iowa and Illinois twice, but only plays Michigan, Purdue, and Wisconsin once each. Sure, we may not have it as tough as some of these, but it's not that far off IMO.
Your assumption about most of the non-con games being against weak opposition is not accurate. Michigan was set to compete in the Empire Classic tournament; a weekend featuring matchups with Villanova, Baylor, and NC State. These are teams currently ranked #3, #10, and #71 according to Kenpom.
Every year we play a handful of quality non-conference games, but more games against weak opponents. On the aggregate, the non-conference portion of our schedule is, year-in and year-out, weaker than our league schedule, so cutting it down will strengthen our SOS.
Also, which teams have that much tougher of a schedule? Illinois has to play...
This thread isn't about how we stack up against the rest of the Big Ten this season. It's about how we compare to other historically good teams.
So far we've played a total of three conference games against teams in the top five of the league. Tonight's game will make four. That's about as favorable as it gets. Now, this does not mean that we aren't a great team. It just makes it tricky to compare us with other teams that had to play more top-loaded schedules.
wow, that certainly puts it into perspective!!
It's a fun season, alrighty.
The '89 team definitely had more talent. Were they a better team? Dunno. The game was much different back then. But they shot 46.8% from 3 (shorter line, but that is ridiculous) and 58.7% overall. Glen Rice shot 60.4% from the floor. For a guy who scored a ton of his points on long-range jump shots that is insane. All 5 starters PLUS the top 3 reserves shot over 50% from the field. Think about that--no matter who put up a shot, it was more likely than not to be going in.
This year's team shoots 39% on 3's (way more attempts and longer line) and only the post players plus Wagner shoot over 50% from the floor. A lot of that is that the game is different. Teams are a lot more methodical and defense is more complex. The game in 1989 was run & gun and the team was more than capable of hitting 100 on any given night. But there is no denying that they could SHOOT.
The Fab 5 team was significantly more athletic that this year's team, but lacked long range shooting. They overwhelmed people with their offensive rebounding and suffocating defense.
Very hard to compare because as others have mentioned, college basketball is clearly diluted now because all the superstars leave as soon as they can. The idea of Glen Rice staying for 4 years now would be silly.
As to how the players function as a team, this year's hoops squad might be the best. It's almost like a ballet...so elegant in how they move and interrelate with one another.
That being said, the '89, '92/93, and '13 teams were stacked with NBA-quality players. I'm just not seeing that on this year's team. Wagner is probably the only sure-fire 1st round pick...and a fringe lottery selection at best.
Yes, but do we have a player whose name sounds like he could be covering for the Mafia?
Beat Illinois!
Hear, hear!!!
I was kinda hoping that the OP decided to look at the basketball team from the perspective of someone who had consumed an entire bottle of Cutty Sark.
I’m fairly sure I remember someone (KenPom himself, perhaps) saying that overall rating isn’t comparable from year to year. In other words, using this year’s rating to compare to other teams in the past is not what the ratings are designed for.
All that said, this is the best Michigan team in recent memory, which for me would be the entire KenPom era. I think the only team that can really hold a candle to it is the sophomore Fab 5 team, which I watched a lot of but didn’t have enough basketball knowledge at the time to fully evaluate. That team was indisputably more talented, but this team is as reliable a team at both ends as I’ve seen.
Here are the Ken pom Final rankings for the last 10 NCAA Champions
33.29 23.93 32.59 32.92 22.13 32.48 32.01 28.22 33.76 34.22
Duke Conn Kent Lou Conn Duke Villanova Nor Car Villanova Virgi
OSU Lous Gonz
33.47 30.41 32.05
Below is the top rated Ken Pom for the year when the top team did not win the championship. Things to note are that teams usually have their rankings go up through the tournament, as they accumulate wins against the best teams. So even though Michigan is currently higher than all but 1 team here, there is a good possibility it will rise through this week, the Big Ten Tournament, and the Big Dance.
Purely speculative question with any answer throwing shade on otherwise great teams. I’m more interested in how this team, and the rest of the B1G, stacks up against the rest of the tournament field. Kenpom tries, but there are big sample problems in the statistical model this year. Retirement and COVID-19 has me watching a lot of college basketball this year and what I see is that no conference plays with the defensive intensity of the B1G. Not even close, and no team in the B1G comes close to Michigan. I like us (and the rest of the B1G) in the Big Dance.
Please, no more threads like this.