Is it time to evaluate the capabilities of the DB coaches?
There is a long litany as to why the defensive backfield is in the shape it is in. You can't point to just one thing.
We all know the recruiting story:
'08 = Cissoko, JT Floyd, Brandon Smith
'09 = Emilien, Cam Gordon, Thomas Gordon, Justin Turner, Adrian Witty
'10 = Avery, Christian, Dorsey, Carvin Johnson, Talbott, Vinopal
We all know the attrition story:
Cissoko, Smith, Emilien, Turner, Witty, Dorsey
I can understand the scheme's GERG is forced to run (even if you disagree):
Bend but don't break/limit opportunities for DB's and LB's to be exploited one-on-one
During the Indiana game was the first time I noticed the DB's not just being exploited due to scheme, but saw issues I would account to coaching.
The question I have for the coaches and true guru's is, from what you have seen, is it time to also evaluate the capability of Tony Gibson and Adam Braithwaite as coaches?
Thanks for your insight.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:06 PM ^
there is no information contained in your post that would indicate there is problem with coaching. Bring some insight if you have any
Cam Gordon, Thomas Gordon, Cullen Christian, Carvin Johnson, T. Talbott, and Ray Vinopal
have in some cases played less than two college football games. Additionally, due to attrition (Wolfolk injury not coaching related, Cissoko inappropriate behavior, Warren gone to the NFL) that has absolutely nothing to do with coaching these players would be red shirted or on the three or four deep rotation. learning to play the game in practice not on the national stage.
One last question do you really think that message board guy would have better insight on deploying these freshmen and RS freshmen than say a paid Division 1 coach with X years of experience?
You know it's really terrible when you have to remind fellow Michigan fans to look at the score board more than opposing teams fans.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:11 PM ^
that made me want to break something during yesterdays game regarding the DB's that need to be fixed before next weeks game (and for the rest of the year):
1) The CB's need to understand were the first down markers are on 3rd/4th and long and stop giving up 10 yards of cushion to the receiver AFTER they have already passed the first down marker. That mistake is just about understanding the situation and where you are on the field and can / should be fixed by the coaches.
2) JT Floyd should have absolutely lit up the guy who came acoss the field and caught that 1st down pass right in front of him, late in the game. I can deal with a lack of ability by a player, but the lack of heart / desire / balls to lay out a guy who is right in front of you, is unacceptable...That needs to be coached up and fixed, NO EXCUSES. Man that play still pisses me off. OK, I have to go punch something now....lol..
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:39 PM ^
Before you punch something, stop and think about how many snaps JT had to play yesterday before you accuse him of lacking heart.
BTW, a good lawyer should know how to properly use an apostrophe.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:17 PM ^
I think it's fair to wonder about the attrition.
I don't think it's fair yet to judge on their ability to coach. How quickly do we forget that a senior quarterback (Chad Henne) and experienced receivers tore apart a young Florida secondary less than three years ago. That Florida secondary featured a few guys you may have heard of, Joe Haden, and Major Wright among them.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:18 PM ^
JT Floyd and James Rogers haven't been All Big Ten players, but they've played a lot better than anyone thought before the season started.
And Cam has made a lot of rookie mistakes, but seemed to play pretty well yesterday. With the INT, leveling the TE who made a great catch, and some overall solid tackling, his UFR might even approach a 0, which would be fantastic compared to the previous weeks.
You can't coach experience. And you can't coach motivation (Turner), common sense (Cissoko, Warren), or high school grade problems (Witty, Dorsey)..
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:23 PM ^
those kids out there are bustin their ass for our fandom....I say thanks Men.
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:03 PM ^
+1 go chargers!
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:24 PM ^
Cam did tackle really well yesterday.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:21 PM ^
how about some love for the run defense !!!! I like how people comment on 18 yr old kids that can't compete at the BIG10 level....60 days into their career. This year we outscore them...then next year we shut them down...the defense will get better with age and experience.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:22 PM ^
I find it interesting how everyone went into this game expecting a good passing team to be able to pass the ball on our defense, but when that actually happens we are looking for answers. We knew it going in but the D did enough for us to win the game, how we can expect much more this season is beyond me.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:27 PM ^
I wish I could smite any and all who use apostrophe's in plural's
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:47 PM ^
While you're at it, smite any and all who don't punctuate their sentences.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:29 PM ^
I see this as a typical game this year folks...put a little more air in your helmet...tie those laces a bit tighter...put a little tape on it and.........STRAP IT UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:33 PM ^
Lets not tie the shoelaces :P
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:36 PM ^
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:37 PM ^
The coaches are fine, it's youth & depth that's the problem. People are so quick to blame the coaches (including me). The last thing they need is a different coach or scheme, they need to stay the course and continue to grow. We all knew our D would be this bad, let's hope we can continue to roll offensively.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:41 PM ^
For those of you who are saying fans are too quick to blame the coaches...
...yeah, you might be right.
But as far as I'm concerned, Tony Gibson has yet to churn out a good player, and he's been here for three years. Adam Brathwaite (the safeties coach) is only five games into his coaching career, so I'd say the jury's still out on him, especially because he's working with some walk-ons and position changers.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:47 PM ^
With only three years and with the attrition on the team, I don't see how Gibson has had a chance to have a good player yet. When kids that have been recruited under him are upperclassmen, then we can talk.
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:04 PM ^
Well, according to Rivals, Gibson was the safeties coach in 2008 and the safeties were bad.
Then he was the DBs coach in 2009, and Michigan allowed a billion passing yards. Meanwhile, Floyd, Williams, Cissoko, and Kovacs were all exposed in the passing game. Woolfolk was pretty good, and Warren was okay...but not good enough to get drafted.
As the cornerbacks coach in 2010, so far Floyd and Rogers have been mediocre. Those two aren't allowing many big plays, but they're not making many big plays, either.
I realize he doesn't have much to work with...but still, the results are the results.
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:09 PM ^
Don't get me wrong, I'll never try to make a case stating our defense has been good. I just don't think it's fair to judge Gibson just yet. It's the same logic that I use when I don't judge underclassmen on defense. Gibson has been coaching with Rich Rod for over a decade now, I have to assume he knows what he is doing or else he wouldn't have been asked to keep moving jobs with Rich Rod.
If the defense doesn't step it up in one to two years, then I think people can rightfully get worked up.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:47 PM ^
In your opinion, who should Gibson have been able to churn out as a good player? I know little to nothing about player development and what is possible, so I'm just wondering who you think had the potential to be good and hasn't gotten there.
Obviously this is ignoring the attrition and recruiting, but you gotta break a problem down into digestable chunks.
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:08 PM ^
There are several players who had potential. Of course it's tough to tell how much blame to place at Gibson's feet, but Justin Turner and Boubacar Cissoko both could have been good.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:07 PM ^
To add to Magnus' thoughts, WVU fans pop up on Michigan boards all the time saying how Gibson really hasn't ever been a really good coach. So it's not just a few years of Michigan fans aggression.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:23 PM ^
Agree on Turner, but not Cissoko. He was given opportunity and coaching. I don't hold Gibson in very high regard, but I don't think Cissoko's failure can be linked to Gibson.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:25 PM ^
Cissoko's failure to be a good person probably doesn't rest on Gibson's shoulders.
Cissoko's failure to be a good cornerback might.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:27 PM ^
Are you suggesting that, even though you thought Cissoko was going to be bad, and when he actually played he was bad, with off the field issues that were bad, he might have actually been good if the defensive backs coach wasn't bad? This thought intrigues me
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:43 PM ^
I mean, I was never a big fan of Cissoko, even coming out of high school.
But a lot of people thought he had potential. He had some tools. Obviously some combination of coaching and Cissoko's choices prevented him from reaching his ceiling.
I'm not saying it's all Gibson's fault, but that's an example of one of his players that didn't pan out.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:58 PM ^
how much cissoko can be used as an example. He was only on the team for a year before being suspended/kicked off. We really didn't get to see him during the second season to see how much development went on.
Floyd would be a better judge of this and from what I have seen this year teams tend to go away from Floyd. They throw toward Rogers more. Floyd is probably the best DB on the team right now. I am interested to see how much more he develops for next year.
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:33 PM ^
Floyd is probably the best DB on the team right now
I agree...and yet that's not saying much.
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:45 PM ^
If Cam Gordon can continue to grow, you may change your mind in a couple of weeks. He's always around the ball and is a sure tackler. Also, nothing got behind him on over 60 tries yesterday.
October 3rd, 2010 at 5:59 PM ^
Adam Jones was a pretty good DB at WVU. Was Gibson the DB coach there? Also didn't Mundy a former Michigan player do pretty well at WVU under Gibson?
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:06 PM ^
Yeah, he's been with RR for over a decade.
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:01 PM ^
Woolfolk has looked good. People were certainly very upset when he got hurt for him to be considered not a good player. Donovan Warren was also considered pretty good in college, if not liked by the pros.
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:00 PM ^
Look... let these kids grow up, you will be proud of them one day.
Relax, look at this way... the other teams punter will never hurt us... there,hang your hat on that if you must.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:10 PM ^
Floyd and Kovacs are the only players in the secondary that had any starting experience in the secondary before this season. That leaves three new starters (Rogers, Gordon and Johnson/Gordon). Of those three new starters, two are freshmen (Carvin being a true freshman) and Rogers is a converted wide receiver that was forced into a starter's role after Troy was injured in fall practice. Each starter is a sophomore or younger with the exception of Rogers. You have to give those guys time to develop and learn under the defensive schemes that are in place. It would be tough for any coach to piece together a workable secondary from the pieces on this roster. If the level of play in the secondary hasn't improved in two or three years, then it might be time to blame the coaches.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:24 PM ^
I don't think it takes five or six years to evaluate Gibson. It only took two years for us all to decide that Hopson, our linebackers coach, should get out of town.
It might take 6 years to evaluate a President's impact; there are a lot of laws and economic decisions to trickle down and take effect.
But a defensive backs coach? I don't think so...
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:56 PM ^
18 months is plenty.
October 3rd, 2010 at 9:04 PM ^
Ahhhh......please don't go there. This is a sports blog.
October 3rd, 2010 at 11:15 PM ^
Apologies to the board... It was an open shot so I took it.
October 4th, 2010 at 1:24 AM ^
air ball
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:20 PM ^
This has been covered, but here is another way to show it. Including the spur and bandit positions, our depth chart in the secondary consists of:
6 true freshmen
2 redshirt freshmen, 1 of whom was a receiver last year
1 senior who was a receiver last year
2 redshirt sophomores who played DB last year! One is a walk-on, the other was badly overmatched in the little time he played last year.
I don't think there's a coach in the country who would be expected to get results out of that, especially early in the season.
(Simmons is on the depth chart, but I excluded him because I don't think he's played outside garbage time.)
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:33 PM ^
is why I can't place the blame on any of the coaches yet. I look at it that Michigan is 5-0. Most reasonable people predicted Michigan to finish somewhere between 6-6 and 8-4. With the defense this young and inexpereience the team is in great position to hit the high end of those guesses if not better. If anything I would give the coaching staff including Gibson credit for holding the D together.
October 3rd, 2010 at 7:59 PM ^
Why hasn't anyone mentioned '06 and '07? Those classes are relevant, too.
Boo Boo was Lloyd's recruit and Floyd was RichRod's. I'm not sure about Brandon Smith.
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:12 PM ^
Eh...
Cissoko was recruited by Carr and committed while he was still here.
Floyd was originally recruited by Carr and seriously considering Michigan, but didn't commit until near NSD.
I don't think you can really say "Cissoko was Carr's and Floyd was Rodriguez's."
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:32 PM ^
As a coach myself I face parents who make blanket statements about what they see in a game. They are concerned about why this kid is playing and that one isn't etc. I always ask them- what have you observed in practice? The answer is of course nothing- they are not at practice. My point is let the coaches coach------also I know at the high school level that we are always better when we are dominated by juniors and seniors in our starting line-up. Michigan's secondary certainly does not fit that scenario. Give them time
October 3rd, 2010 at 8:41 PM ^
I still blame Hopson and I'll continue to blame him for all things bad on defense until the defense doesn't suck anymore.
October 4th, 2010 at 4:41 PM ^
I just don't understand the 10 yard cushion on wideouts EVERY PLAY. I know they are playing a zone but are they really so slow that they can't play on the line of scrimmage EVER? It drives me nuts that they just toss the ball to the outside and it's an automatic 5 yards every time.