Michigan State Snowflakes: The Coaching

Submitted by LSAClassOf2000 on October 31st, 2021 at 4:04 PM

Here is the coaching snowflakes thread....barely, as we keep getting server errors.

Ghost of Fritz…

October 30th, 2021 at 4:13 PM ^

Got flamed for bashing Harbaugh offense after the Nebraska win.  

Well...do the sunshine blowers finally get it? 

His teams will always underperform the roster talent level on offense.  Play calling, game plans, and basic philosophy/approach on offense are the problems.  Coordinators change.  But the basic philosophy and results are the same because Jim is the common denominator.  

Jim is stubborn.  He fails to see that CFB has changed a lot and, therefore, he fails to adapt and adjust.  The best coaches adapt and modify. 

Jim does not adapt and modify.  His theory of how to win games, and how to approach offense, is unchanged from a bygone era.  Therefore, the results on offense underperform the roster talent level, and he has a very poor record in big games, bowl games, any game where the opponent is good. 

Tucker has his team playing above their roster talent level.  Jim, as always, has his team (really his offense) playing below the roster talent level.  

It is year seven and it never changes.  They should have replaced him last year. 

blueblooded14

October 30th, 2021 at 5:47 PM ^

I just don't get it. I don't understand what you guys are seeing that I am not. Michigan threw for 406 yards. Michigan outgained MSU 552-395. We really think that offense lost us this game? And we should have thrown for more if there weren't drops. Drops like we haven't seen all season. Are the coaches to blame for unprecedented drops in a rainy game?

We can all be disappointed but let's not be disengenuous. Michigan's offense and their offensive playcalling did not lose this game.

The goalpost is always moving. UM runs up the middle and "they're not attacking the edges". UM attacks the outside and "why are they getting cute?". JJ gets put in and messes up (the risk everyone identified) and the same people who were saying that JJ should start are now saying that playing him was a boneheaded decision. And those people who are complaining don't even recognize that his second fumble happened while Cade was in the medical tent!

I love Michigan. I'm a proud alum. I hate state (both of them). But I hate you insufferable motherfuckers most of all. There is no critical reasoning. There is only catastrophizing. No matter what UM does, they could have done it better. The goalposts always move. We smash Wisconsin - now they're a bad football team (who just beat a "Top 10 team" btw). We start 7-0, now it's a weak schedule and that start is the expected result (even though no one predicted this outcome). No win is good enough and no loss is understandable. 

Fuck you. Go Blue. Trust the coaches.

wolverine1987

October 30th, 2021 at 5:59 PM ^

Honestly, you can't mean trust the coaches, I mean seriously, please don't say that. This is a coaching thread: are you really saying the coaches we have are the right ones? If you are, you either do not care about winning games against our rivals or are blind to the actual results of M football. 

Cade was stellar most of the game, that's a positive, as is the yards we gained. Our inability to score TD's in the red zone, a failing of ours every single year of the last seven, is a negative, and on the coaches. As is the consistent losing of our most important games, again every year of the last seven (and previous to that with two other coaches). Blind hatred of the coaches and scheme is worth criticism, as is "trust the coaches" which is equally as insane.

Ghost of Fritz…

October 30th, 2021 at 6:36 PM ^

O.k. so I will explain it to you.  Michigan gained 552 yards.  And you might think that rules out complaining about the offense or arguing that the offense is the reason Michigan lost.

But Michigan only scored 33 points.  CFB has changed.  A lot.  In the past that would actually be a very impressive offensive performance.  But netting just 33 points out of 552 yards...that is just an o.k. result in modern CFB.  Teams score.  Teams erase 16 point deficits a lot more commonly these days than back in other eras.   But Jim's idea of football and of offense really is stuck in the mindset of those earlier eras.   And it keeps costing Michigan games.  

And yes, the playcalling and Harbaugh's overall approach on offense are the main reasons for netting just 33 points on 553 yards.  Jim thinks a 50 yard drive that nets a 25 yard FG is a big win.  It was in the lower scoring past.  But it really isn't in today's CFB, at least not against quality opponents, and in a world where 10 point or even three score leads commonly do get erased. 

Look, it is not that Harbaugh is a bad HC.  He is in fact a good CFB head coach (certainly better than Hoke and RRod).  But he is merely good.  And the same issues on offense--all of which trace directly back to Harbaugh--have Michigan underachieving almost every year of Harbaugh era.

And finally, not to try to refute every point you make, but...it really is true that Michigan's 7-0 start was against mediocre teams.

JacquesStrappe

October 30th, 2021 at 10:13 PM ^

First off, most people are not saying that and those that are saying that are likely just venting. But you can’t ignore the obvious and the common thread that runs through every Michigan season, which are painful losses that are due to either poor culture, philosophy, or in-game situation management and execution. To say otherwise is to blindly follow. And I too am an alum. But you must call a spade a spade. Anything else is delusional. 
 

I am not in favor of firing Harbaugh and his staff because contrary to the emotional outbursts here, we are more likely to turn into Tennessee or one of the other revolving door coaching stops of former-blue-bloods-turned-tire-fire-programs than ascend to back to elite status. I think it is better to reckon with what we have and make sure when the next transition happens that we move towards the future and not the past. Everything could stand a refresh because what we have is holding us back as much as it is stabilizing us. We can keep the good parts of the culture and the tradition and discard some of the outdated nonsense about Schembechler-style X’s and O’s game-planning, philosophy, and identity. What we really need is a culture and philosophy of take-no-prisoners winning and opportunism, instead of smashmouth physicality. We’d be better off with Larry David’s philosophy of “whatever works”.


 

Wolverine 73

October 30th, 2021 at 4:16 PM ^

Why the fuck throw deep with plenty of time left and third and three?  Get the first down, don’t assume you will on fourth down.  Batted balls, dropped balls, uncalled holds (ahem), anything can fuck up a play.  And why leave time on the clock if you do hit the big play?  Just makes no sense at all.

uminks

October 30th, 2021 at 4:18 PM ^

Harbaugh cannot win a big game period. I think the AD needs to tell him to beat OSU or find a new young coach. You are up 30-14 mid way through the 3rd QTR and you cannot win this game!

Wolverine 73

October 30th, 2021 at 4:18 PM ^

Why the fuck throw deep with plenty of time left and third and three?  Get the first down, don’t assume you will on fourth down.  Batted balls, dropped balls, uncalled holds (ahem), anything can fuck up a play.  And why leave time on the clock if you do hit the big play?  Just makes no sense at all.  Same old shit, still waiting for the game when I think at the end “wow, we really pulled a slick one there to win that game.”

Wolverine 73

October 30th, 2021 at 4:19 PM ^

Why the fuck throw deep with plenty of time left and third and three?  Get the first down, don’t assume you will on fourth down.  Batted balls, dropped balls, uncalled holds (ahem), anything can fuck up a play.  And why leave time on the clock if you do hit the big play?  Just makes no sense at all.  Same old shit, still waiting for the game when I think at the end “wow, we really pulled a slick one there to win that game.”

stephenrjking

October 30th, 2021 at 4:20 PM ^

Macdonald got smoked by tempo. Other than that, I think the coaching was fine. The staff prepared a good gameplan. Took advantage of stuff. MSU was good at stuff we knew we were going to have trouble with, the refs jobbed us a couple of times, we lost.

People saying that this is a referendum on Harbaugh are ridiculous. Michigan gave him this year. There's a lot of season left to play. Losing a road game against a top ten rival is a gut punch disappointment, but it's not a reason to fire a coach. This team was not going to win a national title; a 10-2 season would be about the best result we could hope for, and that is absolutely still on the table. As long as he's the coach, you want to see growth, and we've seen growth. It was visible today. 

It's a gut punch loss. But a lot of the yelling here is overreaction. 

Brian Griese

October 30th, 2021 at 4:30 PM ^

King, you’re a solid poster and I’m not exactly a Fire Harbaugh guy, but how on earth was this game anything other than a microcosm of the Harbaugh tenure?
Worked over by tempo again? Check

Gave up home run after home run against an explosive offense? Check 

Got too cute with offensive play calling when all the chips were put on the table? Check 

Lost another game away from Ann Arbor against a team worth a shit? Check 

I’m not saying fire Harbaugh, but what’s the point in keeping him if we’re never going to beat OSU with him or beat a team worth a shit away from home?

stephenrjking

October 30th, 2021 at 4:55 PM ^

I was in favor of firing Harbaugh after last year. But it was a COVID year and Michigan, as an institution, does not pull the trigger in that way as a general rule, and they brought him back. They brought him back with a reduced buyout and a new staff strategy: Go young.

Well, Michigan has called the play, and they need to play it out. If the standard for keeping Harbaugh is a perfect season, well, he should have been fired. Because Harbaugh was never going to have a perfect season this year. Nobody, absolutely nobody, expected Michigan to finish undefeated, win the conference, and make the playoff. Frankly, very few people even expected Michigan to get as far as this game undefeated.

It was never reasonable for anyone to expect Michigan to finish 11-1 this year. That's just the reality. I don't like that this is where we're at, but no other coach besides *maybe* Nick Saban would be expected to finish 11-1 with this roster, either. The target this year is progress, growth, signs of improvement in areas of weakness.

And, to this point, we've seen them. Even in this game, we saw them--Cade slinging it all over the field, a new star receiver emerging, over 500 total yards against a decent defense. 

And the problems we've seen are basically problems we *knew* that we had. The defense has been decent to this point, but they have given up some big plays, and given the roster Macdonald inherited nobody could reasonably have expected it to be a world-beating unit. 

We knew that Red Zone scoring was a challenge, and we knew that big plays were a strength of MSU. I literally suggested that this would be the basic challenge of the game (albeit not as high-scoring). Yes, the defense was disappointing. But then, Harbaugh's weaknesses as most of us (including, loudly, me) have identified them have not been with the defense, because the defense is the one area where we are confident that Harbaugh has fully delegated responsibility and trust to his staff.

So the way the game played out is not really that surprising. Offense a bit better than we expected, defense a bit worse. People are acting like Michigan State was a scrub team; they're not. They're really good.

People are trying to either attach a narrative to this or identify a specific issue that's Harbaugh's fault. It's just fans upset about a loss looking for a reason to be mad; nothing presented is actually rational. 

For example: JJ's fumble. A gut punch. Why was he in? ...Turns out Cade was in the injury tent. Now, I've seen some people say "well he should just hand the ball off." I guarantee you that every single person who has said that wanted JJ to run read options and keep the ball; in fact, everyone upset that he was in wanted more JJ. Even pro-Cade guys like me wanted more JJ. So to turn around and say "see, JJ was a mistake" isn't just inaccurate, it's intellectually bankrupt. 

The issues with Harbaugh have been real. But given the choice to go young, to rebuild with this staff, to rebuild with these players... this loss is not a significant factor in the larger picture. And that larger picture is to answer the question, can Michigan grow to elite status again with a young and hungry staff and a core of this roster of players?

And the answer to that question is not yet decided. There's a real chance that Michigan can go 10-2 this year, which 98% of us would have signed up for in a second if we were given the option early in the year. And if that's 10-2 with losses in the rivalry games, well, that's not great... but Michigan brings back almost all of the important offensive pieces next year. Defense is a work in progress, but we're getting better performances out of guys like DJ Turner and Ojabo and the DTs. 

If Michigan had been unprepared/got embarrassed, that would be one thing. But they weren't. They were beaten.

This is a gut punch. Not a referendum. 

HollywoodHokeHogan

October 30th, 2021 at 5:10 PM ^

At least for me, the standard for keeping Harbaugh was having a good (not perfect) season and beating MSU.  Yes, explicitly beating MSU.

MSU is coming off of a 2 win season too, so even ignoring the COVID season, it's clear that Tucker's done a better job rebuilding than Harbaugh.  Tucker inherited a terrible program and already has them beating Michigan consistently.  That's a problem that's not going away, and it's only going to get worse if regional recruiting starts sagging because of it.  Michigan can't afford to let MSU become a threat, and Harbaugh is utterly unequipped to stop that, as he showed yet again today. 

And I can tell you right now that lots of fans would have taken 8-4 with a win over MSU over 10-2 with loses to MSU and OSU and ten wins over teams outside the top 20.  Compared to beating MSU, I don't really give a shit if Michigan loses to Washington and Nebraska.   Maybe fans living in Duluth feel differently, but I don't think many Michigan fans deal with those fanbases very often. 

For teams that don't win titles (and Harbaugh's Michigan is always one of those teams!), rivalries are what matters.  And he does terribly in the two biggest of them. 

UMVAFAN

October 30th, 2021 at 5:50 PM ^

Tucker is a good coach. He did a masterful job filling needs on his roster through the transfer portal. Transfers were making big plays for the Spartans all game. It’s not the same team as last year. It’s a much better team. He found a diamond in the rough with KWIII. How did Wake not see what they had in their hands? Harbaugh and his staff have done a great job this year with a really young team. And they have found some really talented players that are making great strides. Corum, Wilson, Anthony, McNamara, McCarthy, several young O-lineman, multiple tight ends. The only offensive players we will lose are Vastardis and Haskins (maybe). And we’ll get Bell back. The defense has talent, too. Losing Hutchinson will be a loss, but we’re pretty deep at edge. Things are ahead of schedule in my opinion with the recalibration that was done with the staff. The loss sucks, but a B1G Championship is still possible, and the future is bright.

UMxWolverines

October 30th, 2021 at 5:13 PM ^

It is Mel Tucker's second season, he's now 2-0 against us and 8-0 this year. Why is it unreasonable for Harbaugh to do all of these things yet the coach on the other sideline just passed him by? 

If we cannot beat MSU or OSU and have gotten passed by MSU in two years of them rebuilding what exactly are your expectations for Michigan football?

CompleteLunacy

October 30th, 2021 at 5:14 PM ^

Get out of here with your completely rational take!!! WE MUST BURN THIS MOTHER DOWN!!! FIRE EVERYBODY! LETS TURN INTO NEBRASKA OR TENNESSEE!!! THAT SOUNDS WAY MORE FUN!!!

Yeah, people legitimately didn't internalize that Michigan could play well and fucking lose this game, because that's what happens sometimes when you're playing a top 10 opponent. Especially when that top 10 opponent is fucking SPARTY of all teams, you know, a team that has historically been a thorn in Michigan's side no matter how good they are. But it's all harbaugh's fault.

Michigan to me proved they're worthy of being in the top ten. MSU proved they should be higher. The season isn't over yet. Our fanbase is truly a bunch of chicken littles.

Brian Griese

October 30th, 2021 at 5:23 PM ^

I can see your side on the majority points, but there’s one I’ll never agree with: How is it A) not “rational” to point out that a large key as to why we lost today related to our total bewilderment of MSU when they used tempo and that is B) something that has plagued this program ever since the Northwestern game in 2000, which by my count was 22 seasons and 3 coaches ago? 
 

Why are there roster holes and talent issue 7 years into this regime? Why is tempo some great beyond that we can’t contain or implement? Why do we lose every single game against a team worth a shit away from Ann Arbor? I’m sorry, but if those aren’t “rational” points that are 100% on the head coach I guess I’m commenting in the wrong thread. 

I’m not making the point Harbaugh should be fired on the spot. I’m also not saying this game and season hasn’t had bright spots and improvements. But I also cannot stand the same issues driving this team down year after year with no answers for it seemingly in sight. 

Ghost of Fritz…

October 30th, 2021 at 5:28 PM ^

You go through a lot of details and even some rationalizations.  But you are missing the larger picture. 

This game is just more of the same stuff we have seen for seven years.  Here is the bottom line:  Every year Jim Harbaugh's offense underperforms overall offensive roster talent.  Full stop.  And Jim Harbaugh is the main reason that is true.  He personally places a hard ceiling on the program. 

The consistent dysfunction on the offensive side of the ball will prevent him from ever winning a Big Ten championship.  Just to pull one detail from today:  552 yards of offense yielded 33 points.  In today's CFB that is not good.  But to Jim those look like 'winning football.'  The main issue is that it may have been winning football in a different era.  But it is a recipe for losing games you should have won in today's CFB.  Jim starts with faulty premises. 

 

Puget Sound Blue

October 30th, 2021 at 5:36 PM ^

This echoes a lot of what I've come around to thinking. Michigan has been through multiple coaching changes at both the head coach and assistant coach levels, and now is pretty much at a good-but-not great level. I'm not sure how much any one coach can change that. It's been years since Michigan was any real threat to win a championship of any kind. This is where we're at and we need to recalibrate our expectations accordingly.

Ghost of Fritz…

October 30th, 2021 at 5:57 PM ^

This is wrong.  CFB is the sport where one head coach (if you find the right one) really can change everything. If Michigan were to unearth a young coach that ends up being truly elite, a national championship would be possible.  

Harbaugh is a good coach, but also one with well-demonstrated shortfalls (today is yet another demonstration...) that will prevent him from ever being a great CFB coach. 

The shortfalls are serious enough that Harbaugh will never get Michigan to the top--no Big Ten CC, no playoff, etc.  

Yet despite the serious shortfalls, he is still a good enough coach to have Michigan in the 8-4 or 9-3 most years.  

So...too flawed to be great and win championships.  But good enough to avoid being fired.   

stephenrjking

October 30th, 2021 at 6:22 PM ^

This is wrong.  CFB is the sport where one head coach (if you find the right one) really can change everything. If Michigan were to unearth a young coach that ends up being truly elite, a national championship would be possible.  

This is true, and I wouldn't mind Michigan going that route if they need to move on and if that's what's available... but it's a risk. For every young hotshot that emerges as an epochal genius, you get a number of guys that don't work. And the wrong guy can force an early change at a program that can destabilize everything. Look at what awful shape Florida State is in right now, for example. Tennessee hasn't found the answer. Texas just chews them up and spits them out.

"Surely there's someone better, and surely it can't be worse" is not a very sure thing at all. 

The reason Dan Campbell was so attractive last year is that he seemed like he might be that guy. Nobody's talking about him right now, because he's only been consistently ok. So, we'll see what things look like.  

Toby Flenderson

October 30th, 2021 at 6:43 PM ^

I think Michigan firing a coach in his 7th season with a 3-4 record against MSU and soon to be 0-7 record against OSU with FSU firing Willie Taggart and Texas firing Herman after 4 years is not on point. Michigan is not being fickle with Harbaugh. I think it is reasonable to say to prospective coaches to Michigan "We have a current infrastructure that makes us a top 10 program, you cannot be here for 7 seasons, not get to a big ten title, and not have a winning record. We will give you the money to build a staff. Get it done."

Michigan is treading water right now. Let's be real, we are all making jokes about Mel Tucker leaving for LSU because we know he is a legit threat to Michigan, and will soon be bringing in good recruiting classes. Michigan could be the 4th best team in the division next year. No one is saying it is a sure thing to bring in a new coach. What people are thinking is that with Michigan's current infrastructure, it makes sense to inject the program with new blood and move into the 21st century with proper roster management and offensive philosophies. 

MGoStrength

October 30th, 2021 at 6:09 PM ^

If the standard for keeping Harbaugh is a perfect season, well, he should have been fired. Because Harbaugh was never going to have a perfect season this year. Nobody, absolutely nobody, expected Michigan to finish undefeated, win the conference, and make the playoff. Frankly, very few people even expected Michigan to get as far as this game undefeated.

The win totals are fine minus last year.  But, the standard has to be higher against the rivals.  It's as simple as that.  You can't never beat OSU and keep struggling with MSU.  PSU, Iowa, & Wiscy are whatevs.  But, JH can't only win 7-10 games, never beat OSU, and have a losing record against MSU.  He can do two of those things, but not all three.  The record would be fine if he was 5-2 or 6-1 against MSU.  He could be 3-4 vs MSU if he was 3-3 vs OSU.  Or he go 11-2 every year and lose to the rivals or have 12-1 or 13-0 season mixed in there among the struggles.  But, you just can't always lose to OSU, have a losing record to MSU, and never win more than 10 games.  That is just not enough to keep the HCing job at UM IMO.

WolvinMaine

October 31st, 2021 at 11:04 AM ^

This sums it up.  College football is as much about beating rivals as it is about total record. Just ask John Cooper.

In year 7, Harbaugh is 3-9 vs MSU and OSU, and while I hope this is not the case, it is likely he will finish this year 3-10 vs the teams we as a fan base really care about.  This far in to Harbaugh's term, his record against our main rivals is who he is as a coach, and that is not the expectation at Michigan.