OT - Divorce legal questions
Will sneak this OT question in here. I know the shot clock on OT is ticking down.
I received a call from my sister. She is late 30s, no kids, married 10 years. She told me that her husband moved out and said he will be filing divorce papers. This came as a shock to her and to me as they seemed to have a very stable marriage. Evidently there is another woman involved which, naively I guess, she was unaware of.
She has a bachelors degree and worked while her husband was going through professional school. He probably contributes 3/4 of the family income as she is working in a relatively poor paying nonprofit job. Her concern is her financial future. Given that her husband makes a good salary she didn't see the need to pursue "money" in a career. She loves the house they purchased together but would not be able to keep in on her salary alone.
So my question is, is alimony still a "thing" in Michigan? How is it determined and how much and for how long is it awarded?
Disclaimer - yes I know MgoBlog is not the place to get legal advice but over the years MgoBlogers have provided excellent advice on a variety of things and this should be no different. She has contacted a divorce attorney in her community
August 25th, 2023 at 9:38 AM ^
Alimony is still a thing but I'll let the mgolawyers handle that. She'll need a really good inventory of the assets/debt and how that will be divided. That all gets factored in.
She should also factor in the additional mortgage cost due to rates currently at 7-8% versus what could be 2-3% on her current house. A much lower value future house could end up with the same payment. Assuming they are both signers on the current mortgage, whoever gets the house will have to get new mortgage regardless.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
I’m not sure how it works in MI, but in OH the general rule for spousal support is 1 year of support for every 3 years of marriage.
August 25th, 2023 at 1:55 PM ^
I think in California it’s 1 year for every two years of marriage unless you go over 10 years, then it can be unlimited.
August 25th, 2023 at 11:41 PM ^
This is not true. I'm in the tail end of a divorce and my mortgage which is though a credit union is allowing me to take my ex wife off the mortgage while keeping my 2.25% interest rate.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:43 AM ^
Full disclosure, I'm not a lawyer but I have been through divorce, though, in another state. I'm sorry for your sister. Divorce sucks. It is better that there isn't kids involved.
I had a lawyer once tell me that divorce is like two people throwing shit at each other in front of a judge, and seeing what sticks. The best divorces end with nobody being happy. You save 10-20 thousand if you can handle things outside of court. Alimony is still a thing. Make sure she has a detailed list of all assets and accounts for both her and her husband.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:44 AM ^
Evidently there is another woman involved which, naively I guess, she was unaware of.
I don't know the details, but it doesn't have to be naive. Trust is an important part of a loving relationship. Unfortunately, some people turn out to be untrustworthy.
I'm not an attorney, but I hope alimony is still a thing. She financially supported him through school so it's only right that she gets financial support now. And if she had known that he would eventually walk out on her, she might have chosen a better paying job.
Just my $0.02.
August 25th, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
How could she have supported him through school with a low paying job that she chose supposedly because he was a high earner? He said she worked while he went through school.
I am pretty sure Spousal support is temporary in Miichigan, she will probably get something for a couple years but she will be expected to earn her own oney eventually.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
Yeah, I can see where my comment might sound like a contradiction. The OP said:
Given that her husband makes a good salary she didn't see the need to pursue "money" in a career.
So I took this to mean that maybe she shifted a career to one making less money but that she really loved after he got his degree and started making good money. It happens all the time. But maybe I was wrong.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:46 PM ^
They had both graduated from UM. She took a job in education, while he went to professional school for 4 years. They lived like students do, in a studio apartment.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
this is not legal advice, merely musing:
alimony in michigan depends mightily on what jurisdiction you're in. MCL 552.23 covers it,
Upon entry of a judgment of divorce or separate maintenance, if the estate and effects awarded to either party are insufficient for the suitable support and maintenance of either party and any children of the marriage who are committed to the care and custody of either party, the court may also award to either party the part of the real and personal estate of either party and spousal support out of the real and personal estate, to be paid to either party in gross or otherwise as the court considers just and reasonable, after considering the ability of either party to pay and the character and situation of the parties, and all the other circumstances of the case.
but generally age, health, kids, prior standard of living, fault causing the divorce (infidelity used to be a big deal, not so much anymore) and whether the assets of the marriage are insufficient to provide for the party seeking alimony.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
It's still a thing, but FWIW, with no kids, and with her being able to work, it's more likely to be a Temporary or Periodic (as in for a set period of time until she can become fully self-supporting) thing than a sort of, Permanent, 'make-her-whole' type of support. There's a good chance that means she won't be able to afford to keep the house.
Obviously she needs to lawyer up with a Michigan attorney who does this stuff day in and day out but she probably needs to mentally prepare for the possibility of having to sell the house and get something more affordable for awhile.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
I was thinking this too. I seem to recall (not an attorney anymore, and never licensed in Michigan) there is some case law about one party sacrificing to put the other one through school and having a claim to some compensation for that, but I also agree that it will be a stronger claim if it is of a limited duration. She likely will not be able to claim a share of all of the future income from the advanced degree, but should be able to seek something for having financed it.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^
I am also not an attorney, but she should ask her attorney about her having a stronger claim to part of his income...due to supporting him while he was in school. The argument is that his earning power was enhanced/enabled because of having her support.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:54 AM ^
Not legal advice but I feel for your sister. Divorce sucks and while the lack of kids makes it less messy, it still won't be fun.
Getting divorce attorneys and going through the legal process will be expensive. If they can settle as much as possible before getting combative that would be best, as the most likely outcome is they'll wind up splitting the marital assets down the middle so any prolonged arguing for a bigger share might be more cost than it's worth. Obviously will depend on the situation but alimony and financial assistance between spouses is somewhat capped by the financial differences between the two and trying to make everyone as whole as is reasonable.
Anyway, wish her luck.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
A lot of it is going to depend on the predicament with the house. If it is owned outright, which I doubt the best move would be to sell the house as part of the divorce, and then have her take a substantial majority of the net. She would forsake alimony, but just have the money upfront to get her self situated in a new life. If there is a large mortgage on the house she should live in it during the divorce and then give up the house. That would be a huge burden going forward.
But yes, she is going to get spousal support/alimony. And with a cheating hubby if she draws a female judge, she is probably going to get a bunch of it.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:19 PM ^
Regardless of the judge’s gender, she should be compensated for her husband’s pathetic failure to hold up his end of the deal. I am sorry for her pain and struggle, but I am hopeful that she will ultimately end up better off in the long run.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
"Evidently there is another woman involved"
Prediction: the relationship that he's divorcing your sister for is based on really hot sex, and given human nature, that hot sex will pretty soon lose its novelty and not be so hot any more, and then he'll have to confront the reality of who's he's shacked up with.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:31 AM ^
That part sucks, a friend once told me.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
The best is when the hot sex ends, and he's the type of guy who fell in love over it, and ends up with an even worse relationship because he feels like he has to stay in it since it's who he left his previous wife for. I've watched that play out a few times and woooo boy does that guy seem miserable after a little while.
August 25th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
Imagine being the fluff on the side and thinking "He'll never leave me. After all, I stole him from her." As if he's only capable of deception and betrayal once.
August 25th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
Unfortunately, lots of women deceive themselves exactly that way. As do plenty of men.
August 25th, 2023 at 3:56 PM ^
I told myself long ago that if I wanted to get involved with another woman I would get divorced first. No skulking around. Look the wife in the face and be a man about it. A persons word and commitment matters to both parties.
August 25th, 2023 at 5:46 PM ^
Told myself, and my wife, a long time ago that one of us goes into a pine box first.
August 25th, 2023 at 9:43 PM ^
^ right on brother
August 25th, 2023 at 12:13 PM ^
The female relational spieces summed up in a few sentences.... I don't mean to be harsh but these two things happen far to often.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
By that same line, imagine being the guy who thinks "oh, I'm not a shitty guy, I just left one person I said I loved and pledged my undying loyalty to get 'better' sex with someone else. I've surely matured as a person and won't be swayed again." Because oh boy have I met guys who think they found "the one" after "the first one" but fell into the same cycle because they're immature pricks who don't really value anyone else's feelings.
Everyone who knowingly engages in a cheating relationship sucks about the same. It's just from different viewpoints.
August 25th, 2023 at 1:00 PM ^
Yeah, I've seen "the one" they cheated with turn out to be a very nasty, controlling person in the long run. And I've seen it with both genders. Just man up and end a relationship. Seriel cheaters do it for the attention and because they're wiring is broken. But people who do it as a way out of a relationship are just cowards.
August 25th, 2023 at 11:49 AM ^
This scenario has played out with two women that I know well—both dumped for a "hotter" woman. Both times the ex ended up far, far worse off then they were with wife #1, and eventually split up with #2.
I have zero sympathy for any man in that situation. Like Robin Williams joked, God gave men two heads but only enough blood for one.
August 25th, 2023 at 12:13 PM ^
The male species summed up in a few sentences....
August 25th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
This is absolutely legal advice:
Delete Facebook, hit the gym, and lawyer up.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^
And download tinder?
August 25th, 2023 at 10:50 AM ^
Insta
August 25th, 2023 at 11:15 AM ^
Farmers Only?
August 25th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
Christian Fart Mingle.
August 25th, 2023 at 8:04 PM ^
50% of divorces end up in marriage.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
i am not a lawyer, and thus, i will not offer any form of legal advice, rather just a bit of sympathy. i hope things work out for her <3
August 25th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
The #1 priority is to make sure she gets half his retirement assets accrued during the marriage.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:42 AM ^
Or just take him out with a surface to air missile.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^
Get with the times,bro. Drones can do that at a fraction of the cost.
August 25th, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^
Or boxed wine.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:59 AM ^
HP makes a great point. She should be entitled to half his retirement. She can roll it over into her own retirement account (which is great if she can afford to do that) or under a QDRO (Qualified Domestic Relations Order) she can take a one time withdrawl without paying a penalty. You still have to count it as income and that adjust your tax obligation higher, but it is a way to get a chunk of money for anticipated living expenses. All divorce law is state specific, but this is pretty universal.
Also, really sucks I hope she finds peace with it. Been there recently myself and it is a rough ride. My only advice is once you make it out the other side (and she will) there are a lot of great new things to experience.
August 25th, 2023 at 11:27 PM ^
In our state, all assets earned over the course of the marriage are to be split 50/50 and there's not a lot of wiggle room on that. Any lawyer in Michigan should make this happen no problem (excepting hidden and/or cash assets not backed by documents easily obtained in discovery).
serious advice: if she cares about assets that much, tell her to negotiate with wildly unrealistic asks to the point that negotiations drag out, and every time the next step is to go to a judge, then she can ask for something more reasonable but still way in her favor. Chances are he'll settle out-of-favor just to avoid the prolonged process.
^^^^ This is what my ex did, and i couldn't care less how much extra money i paid just to be rid of her bullshit and conclude the process. You can't really start your new normal until the financial settlement is made, and the combined waiting and powerlessness you possess when going through negotiation are absolute hell.
Unless her ex is an ego-centric individual who uses conflict like that for fuel, I'd wager that -- if your sister has the mettle to play hardball for the long haul -- she can negotiate herself a pretty comfortable future.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^
She will probably get some sort of financial assistance or a lumpsum payout, and possibly both. Any money they have in a joint account should be split now, or agreed in writing to be left alone, because technically it belongs to both of them equally so he could go clean it out (or she could) and it gets into a messy situation during the divorce process as to who's money it is. And she probably needs some of that money to get by while this plays out.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
If movies and TV have taught me anything, it's that your sister's gonna want to contact every reputable divorce attorney in the tri-state area so that they're conflicted out when the ex-to-be calls.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
Tony Soprano sends his regards
August 25th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
You knew what you married into, Carmela!!
August 25th, 2023 at 11:20 AM ^
I love how Logan Roy gave Tom this advice. It's HBO universal.
I just hope this woman doesn't end up with $5M. You can't do anything with five. Can't retire. Not worth it to work. Five will drive you un poco loco, my fine feathered friend. The poorest rich person in America. The world's tallest dwarf.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
MGoDivorceLawyer here. I won't comment on alimony because I don't practice in MI. I can, however, offer some practical advice. Please make sure she seeks counseling. If she had a broken leg she'd see a leg doctor. Her heart and head are hurting. She nees professional help to get her through this very difficult time. And she doesn't want to burn out her family & friends.
She should also do something she's never done. Take cooking or dancing class -- something that she can focus on to distract her from the daily grind. She can pat herself on the back when she's done & be proud of her accomplishment.
Divorce is a gauntlet. You just need to power through. Most folks who go through a divorce are utlimately better for it. She'll be happier 2-3 years down the road. She's lucky she has you for support.
August 25th, 2023 at 1:07 PM ^
Agreed. As a guy who's gone through one, therapy is key. I tried to go without for the first year, and realized sitting alone in my own head wasn't going to solve the problem. It will also help her realize what aspects of the divorce were her fault. Not saying she did anything wrong like he did, but things like what led her to picking a guy capable of cheating, or what things she let slide that she shouldn't have. Things she can acknowledge and recognize to make the next relationship more meaningful and real.
I watch a lot of people get divorced, blame the other side for all of it, then repeat the pattern by dating/marrying the exact same type of person.
August 25th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
She has a bachelors degree and worked while her husband was going through professional school
I remember covering this in law school - it was on how much a law degree is worth (couple divorced, wife put the husband through law school, at the divorce a question was how much she should get for putting him through law school). Can't remember any of the details though.