OT: Could an elite 9th grade AAU boys basketball team beat the NCAA woman's national champions?
Slow day on the board so I thought I'd ask others about something I've wondered about for a while. Having watched a good bit of the B1G women's bball tournament this week I was struck by how few people were in attendance and how far below the rim the game is played. I coached boy's basketball up to the JV level in High School and generally speaking in about 9th grade the game changes dramatically because at 15 many boys can elevate above the rim. In the games I watched this week none of the woman could get close to the rim, much less above it. And the pace the ball was pushed up court seemed slow as hell to me.
My whole life I've been told we should pay just as much attention to woman's sports as mens but are the games they play even close to being equivalent? I think a good 9th grade boys team would beat the woman's national champion. Is the reason interest is minimal in woman's collegiate basketball simply because the quality of the game is roughly that of 8th grade boys?
If they score more points than the womens team.
/s
EDIT: Trolling? Really. Now I am Trolling. I hate space bitches.
Kevin Borseth should not probably be involved in this debate.
He'd be ok on this topic but I sure would be careful if the subject was on offensive rebounding. He seems to have pretty strong feelings on that matter........
I agree with basically everything the OP said. Continuous coverage (in prime time, no less) of that sport (WNBA and NCAA) reeks of some kind of conspiracy. I don't know how else to explain that phenomenon. It is often unwatchable IMO. In addition to lowering the rim, they might want to consider shrinking the ball even more. So many turnovers and sloppy plays!
It's funny -- there are several sports (golf, tennis, and soccer, to name a few) that I can easily stomach when the ladies are involved. A great measurable example is swimming, where the best women can more than hold their own with most HS boys, especially when the distance of the race is increased.
Aside: My dad (a scratch golfer in his prime) had the opportunity to play a round of golf with Annika Sorenstam in the '90s. By his account, he stayed with her for the first three holes and then she ran away from him. He was very favorably impressed by her distance off the tee, accuracy, and consistency (no surprise).
Speaking of women's basketball, what is the point of having the women's Big Ten Tournament in an NBA-sized arena? It looks awful seeing all those empty seats.
It would obviously depend on the situation, but I think a great group of 15-16 year olds could compete with the woman's NC, but let's not discredit how good those women tend to be. I mean, 6'4" is still tall, and most women at that level are pretty athletic. I wouldn't say 9th graders would be able to win, but they could probably be competitive.
The 9th graders would win, and it would be a slaughter.
I'm actually reading a book right now (can't think of the title off the top of my head) about a 9-10 year old AAU team that had 5 players go D1. Not bashing WBB at all, but AAU is highly competitive and you're probably correct
Boy timing is everything now isnt it? I just watched that tape too and again, I was struck by how far below the rim the game is played by women. Granted these are high schoolers but if you watched a highlight tape from a male recruit i BKfinest it you'll see most players can at least get rim, if not throw down.
I don't think I saw anybody elevate high enough to touch the bottom of the NET....much less the rim....in the entire three minutes of that film.
I didn't neg you because I think you have a legitimate criticism, and it seems like a thought out post to some extent. You could have done without extrapolating your opinion on WBB to all sports, though.
I don't watch a lot of WBB or soccer, but I really enjoy softball, and if I'm watching a tennis tournament I watch Maria Sharapova (yes, for her game, although she is easy on the eyes) over everyone except Nadal or Roddick, or Federer v. top ten competition.
I played tennis professionally in the 70's and used to love to watch women's tennis. I can't stand it anymore because of the shrieking. And I can't watch it with the sound off because I need to hear the ball come off the racquet to really get into the match.
is my second favorite sound in sports. I used to have a problem with the screaming (our girls two singles in HS did it and it annoyed the hell out of me), but I've gotten more used to it. Sharapova takes it over the top, but I still watch and consider myself a fan of hers. Maybe seeing it at a younger age helped?
Just have to add, the best sound in sports is a pair of skates cutting deeply into ice. No Wayne Gretzky, I'm talking about a guy like Johan Franzen who weighs 220+ and skates like it. A tennis ball coming off a pro recquet is number two, followed by a golf ball falling into the hole.
Ohhhhh, the golf ball into the hole sound. That's therapeutic for me - I wish I could play it on loop for a half hour or so every night before I fall asleep.
Yes. When I golf I never pick my ball up when it's close. I putt just so I can hear that sound.
Justin - my extrapolation (which I didnt even realize I did untill I went back and re-read the post again) was on the media's "guilting" us that we reallhy should be watching/attending women's sports just as much as mens. seemingly without regard to the quality of play. I think the reaon women's tennis has a higher rating than men's is because the quality of play is higher....more volley's and less just atomic serves with aces. But woman's basketball is definitely NOT as high (I counted five airballs in the Michigan/OSU game from inside the paint for God's sake) and nobody calling the game seemed to think that was odd.
I think the attendance & viewership follows the quality of the game that is being played. Tennis, softball, track & field and many others ARE comparable and have audiences to match.
the ratings for womens tennis are far lower than mens. There was a big controversy a few years back about Wimbledon prize money, and I would side with the men (getting bigger prizes, based on longer matches and higher viewership) ten times out of ten.
I like seeing Sharapova play, I like the girlfriend having the opportunity to play high level softball, but I do agree with your last statement that popularity directly follows quality*. That gets too little attention, IMO.
*Even as a lifelong hockey fan, softball is still the biggest mystery to me when it comes to popularity. People watch baseball, and softball is a faster paced sport with more scoring....not to say hockey shouldn't be on network TV every night with sellout crowds.
Yes they would beat them. A friend of mine's son goes to Texas and Texas actually recruited a few guys that played high school ball to play against the women. Cool for the guys - they got all sorts of perks and gear. They crushed the women all the time. The women's program did it so the women played against a faster speed. No contest. There is just too much physical difference.
i used to play co-ed games and the women's ball was so much easier to shoot with. it seemed like i could drain 25-footers with a women's ball easier than the 19'9'' with a men's ball.
I have suffered through many girls games and think that the size difference between 21/22 yo amazonians and 13/14 yo boys is too much. Girls basketball is all about screens and jump shooting vs boys slash and drive. Now, if you were going to lineup an average girls college team and an outstanding 9th grade aau team I would say yes, the boys will win.
Girls college basketball is the equivalent of men's basketball in the 50's as far as scheme.
Very interesting question OP, and the user who said they are barely the same game raises a great point. I think that an apt parallel is tennis. In women's tennis, Serena Williams is a beast. She regularly serves 20mph faster than other women, and she could definitely kick my ass at just about anything. But when compared to men, that advantage disappears. Men biologically in general are bigger, faster and stronger. Elite men will have physical advantages over elite women. That doesn't mean on an individual level or a team level that women can't beat men, but the physical advantanges will be there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)
http://www.mid-day.com/opinion/2010/jul/060710-Serena-Williams-Wimbledon-Tennis.htm
Serena played a man a few years ago just for fun, and she said there's no way. Now the fact that with all the advantages there are only 500-600 men who can beat her? That's awesome for her.
My AAU girls 16-under wouldve beat MOST high school boys teams in Michigan a couple years back we beat Troy and Lance Cruise boys varstiy teams in scrimmages ,of course we had one of the best AAU teams in America . Went to 8 National Finals in 9 tounys .
so i know a college womans national champion team would beat 9th grade AAU ..maybe not 11th grade AAU teams..these woman can run for miles and miles without getting tired and UConn teams had 5-6 girls at 6-4 and above
ps the scores of the scrimmages were in the uppers 80's boys dont realize how physical the girls are til its too late.
What makes anyone think that the value of a sport lies in whether or not you personally find it entertaining?
I really thought we were capable of having a conversation with fewer errors in logic in it. "I knew someone who..." boldly stated but unsupported claims, generalizing from a single example, what is WRONG with yall tonight?
Your point is.... Women are shorter than men?? Congratulations on that insight.
more of this ^^
I love watching most sports. Some I enjoy more than others and it really has nothing to do with the sex of the people playing. Sam FIndley home run... awesome! Abby Wambach header vs. Brazil, amazing.
And it's curious to me that for most here the entertainment value is apparently tied to the athletic attributes of the players and not the intensity of the competition. I, for one, would much rather watch a state-championship girls' game played like lives depended on it than an NBA all-star game.
That is your particular mindset. I watch sports to be amazed, to witness a spectacle so compelling that it's image remains burned in my brain for days afterward. That almost never happens in women's bball.
A conversation that only boys would even bother to have.For the record, your incredible feminism is showing. The OP here is an older man. Hence his user name.
Furthermore, 99% of posters in this thread have gone to great lengths to ensure that they are answering the question on a scientific standpoint, and not slighting women for the fact that they are women, and therefore prone to being shorter and lighter. Almost all of the posters have stated that the women should be praised for knowing how to play the game, and well, but that there is a certain point where knowledge of the game cannot trump athleticism.
FURTHERMORE, you don't even know what you're indignant about. Nobody anywhere in this thread was trying to make a "point" in the sexes battle. It was merely a discussion of sports. nobody said, "because of that, men/women are clearly superior."
It's hot-button people like you that give feminism/other-isms a bad name.
Almost all of the posters have stated that the women should be praised for knowing how to play the game
I figured if almost all the posters had said this I could probably find an example, but after about 20 posts and a discussion of the relative attractiveness of female basketball players and whether the boys would be distracted by their breasts, I gave up.
I have no doubt a number of posters feel this way; it's a tiny minority that made a point of saying so.
I've coached HS basketball at a fairly high level for both boys and girls (D1 players, boys state championship, etc.).
Answer is yes, an elite 9th-grade AAU team could beat the women's NCAA national champions.
Caveat: the women's NCAA national champions would beat a lot of HS varsity boys teams. The thing is, an "elite" AAU team these days is a significant force. If it's truly an elite team, you're going to have boys dunking left and right, a freaky good shooter or two, and more than enough height to stand out in the airport. They will have just as much stamina as the girls, just as much teamwork, and just as much height, while they will have more strength and speed (if not quickness).
OT: The disparity in level of competition between the sexes is just about as great in basketball as it ever gets, I think, until girls start playing football. I wonder about ice hockey, too, but I don't know a thing about hockey, really. I do know soccer, and it is much, much closer there. Women play soccer at a high enough level that when the hypothetical what-if vs. men's teams comes up, it's debatable just how the Tar Heels women's team would do against various levels of men's HS and weaker college competition. But with basketball, whoever posted earlier and said it's a no-brainer was 100% right. It's a no-brainer.
There's been a woman or two that has made a preseason NHL roster. I'm pretty sure Cammi Granato could have attempted a career in professional hockey*; she was invited to a full-blown NHL training camp but declined.
As far as youth hockey goes, when I played (my club career ended in spring 2005) girls could play a level down (i.e. 16U girls v. 14U boys) and with no check rules against boys. In Illinois there just wasn't elite girls competition, but playing by those rules I'm assuming a Michigan girls AAA team could compete with boys AA at the youth level.
*A) Mens professional hockey. She had a long career in womens pro hockey 2) I don't think she would have been able to play in the NHL, but I think she could have been a solid contributor at the AHL level. D) I have no idea if her body would have stood up to the hits she would have taken at a professional level; that's obviously something nobody can predict, but it needs to be considered, at least.
Completely disagree with you assessment on Cammi. She could have played Juniors at best and would have been killed by physical contact. She is a good player, skilled, but not anywhere near a pro player at the mens level.
To me, the only position a woman could "possibly" compete at the professional level is goalie and thats a stretch.
It's hard to try and project, obviously; I don't think we have any film that shows her on the ice with good mens competition. She's small, but I'd think she could make up for that the same way, say, Patrick Kane does. I just don't think she would be as good, plus she's a good deal smaller than Kane anyway. A lot of it would also depend oh what injuries were like, IMO, if she could stay healthy maybe she could have caught on at some level.
I'll freely admit I'm biased about her, though. I got to watch her play in a local pickup game when I was about ten and my mom can't stop raving about her to this day. One of her family members (an NHL player) was on the ice with her, and some idiot decided it would be a good idea to hit her from behind. Let's say he was politely asked to leave and never come back. That was a pretty unique thing to see happen.
Easily
My input on this: I played for one of the top prep school hockey teams out East and we destroyed the USA Womens Olympic Team that went to Italy. They had some skill but were far to slow, weak, and (overall) not as skilled as us. To top it off, our top line was not allowed to play after the 1st period.
Bottom line to me is that womens teams are good, but cannot compete against elite teams far below mens standards. *not sure if that makes sense.
Hockey would be just plain dangerous to crossover. The fact that the women don't play with contact makes it a totally different game. One solid check from a decent male player would most likely put a female out for the game. Contact sports aren't really fair to compare when size and testerone are so important.
Technically, only women playing in womens leagues play without checking. If it's a woman is playing on mens teams, she has a better idea of where she might fall on the checking food-chain (and this isn't ridiculously uncommon, it happened at the varsity level in Illinois).
absolutely right; anyone whos seen the film of Lebron's aau team knows they played above the rim and were athletic as hell. Even a 9th grade Mitch Mcgary type would completely shut down any post game and if you look at some of these rosters now they are absolutely staked with future college stars on these elite AAU/high school teams.I think even with the women's ball it's still not even close.
This is a sport I always wanted to see men's and women's pros go at it in. I know bowling is sometimes tough to consider a sport, but for that very reason it seems like testerone is not much of an advantage here. It doesn't help to be faster or taller or bigger, although I have to imagine ball speed and weight are fairly important. I'm not a bowler, so some input would be nice.
...would rank about #35 among the men, according to the scoring averages posted at pba.com.
I'm not actually sure if scoring averages are a fair measure because I don't know if the wax conditions are the same on both tours. Waxing for men's pro events tends to be a lot tougher than at your local lanes (like the greens at the Masters compared to your local public course); that was probably true for the women as well but I don't know if it was as extreme. I'm confident it wasn't more extreme, so #35 would be an upper bound.
You're torquing a 16-pound ball; strength, forearm strength in particular, matters a lot. The closer you have to get to your physical limits to get a partcular ball speed and torque, the less accurate you can be.
First I want to say that I am a big supporter of women's basketball and women's sports in general, both of my daugthers have been involved in organized athletics since they were about 3-4, and I am consistently amazed at what they can do. One of my daughter's is an 8 year golfer who plays in a league with 12-13 year old boys because she crushes the ball and is just that good...
/doting father :)
We also attend a ton on of Michigan Women's home games in Gymnastics, Softball, and Basketball.
All of that being said, I think I have some experience that can help answer this question. When I went to UM the Women's BBall team was improving, and if I recall correctly, they were ranked around #20 in the preseason poll. The coach put an ad out in the Michigan Daily inviting guys to come out and scrimage the team that preseason, once or twice a week for a few weeks, IIRC. A buddy of mine, myself, and maybe 6 or 7 other guys off the street answered the call :). Long story short, we were probably your average group of guys that could play on the first court of the CCRB on a given Saturday, but we beat them consistently and fairly easily. (in fainess my buddy and I were UM IM Champions! ... lol). I'm pretty sure any decent Varsity high school could beat us. So if an elite 9th grade AAU team could beat a decent Varsity team, (I think so, but I don't follow AAU closely) I think an elite 9th grade AAU team would have beat us pretty easily, so it follows that and elite 9th grade AAU team would beat a ranked Women's College BBall team consistently. I realize this is an anecdote,but hey its what I got...
/cool story, bro
Sorry about the thread hijack but I thought this would be a decent thread to hijack due to its non-importance. I was on facebook and seems like Tae Odoms is trying to give back to his hometown and community. You can purchase T-Shirts or Wristbands to help out his hometown of Pahokee. The player from Pahokee have given a lot back to the University so if someone could repost a thread about this I would be greatly appreciate as I am sure Tae and all the other Pahokke guys aswell. The site is www.hopeforpahokee.com
Thank You