Did anyone else hear Rick Leach this morning?

Submitted by Garvie Craw on October 15th, 2009 at 8:32 AM

Rick Leach was on with Sam Webb this morning, and he was very uncomplimentary toward Lloyd Carr. He went so far as to say that LC has flipped a huge middle finger at the program. I would relate what he said, but I wouldn't be as accurate as I'd like. Did anyone with a better memory hear what he said?



October 15th, 2009 at 11:55 AM ^

Of which Lloyd Carr is apparently one.

But seriously, here's some things I don't understand about this conspiracy theory:

1) I thought Carr was out to get Miles. Now it turns out he's after RR, too. Who else is Carr after? Am I safe?

2) Bill Martin said he'd ask Carr's opinion before hiring a successor, to which Carr said something about not wanting to be involved. So basically, Carr potentially could have influence Bill Martin's decision back then, but decided instead to run to the FreeP later?

STW P. Brabbs

October 15th, 2009 at 5:12 PM ^

You look for the people who, will, you know benefit from-

I am the walrus.

[Oh, and this post is full of tinfoil dumbassery. What the hell does 'controversy (i.e. lloyd carr et al)' mean? Literally I think that's "controversy (that is Lloyd and others)" which is one e.g. of gibberish, IME. Also, as is pointed out below, I still can't figure out who is profiting from this, other than the media, in which case any discussion of either Lloyd or Leach is fairly moot.]

Unless your post was satire. In which case, 40 e-lashes for me.

EDIT: Ok, I overreacted on this one. I thought you were part of the Lloyd Conspiracy Brigade, and I flipped. I'm sure you're right in that the media has a vested interest in fanning the flames, but I don't totally see how that explains the Leach explosion. 40 e-lashes it is for me.


October 15th, 2009 at 9:49 AM ^

I respectfully disagree that simply because Lloyd was a guest of Iowa fans in their private box that it somehow means he's "giving the finger to Michigan." Right after Barry Alvarez retired as head coach of Wisconsin, Lloyd invited him to Ann Arbor when UM played UW. Barry was on the Michigan sideline for the whole game, (it was covered by ABC and the sideline reporter talked to him).

I don't recall anyone questioning Alvarez's allegiances at the time, (though there may have been some back in Madison). It was simply a nice gesture to be asked, and he accepted.

In Lloyd's case, I think its much the same. Would Bo have sat with the Iowa fans? Probably not, but I'm speculating. How many of us have attended games in other stadiums, sat with our competition's faithful throngs, and cheered for Michigan anyway? Might not Lloyd have done the same?

However he got to be the head coach at Michigan, he served as a football coach for decades, and still owes much of his livelihood to the institution. I would find it hard to believe that someone could so easily turn his back on Michigan after so long a career.

Maize and Blue…

October 15th, 2009 at 11:23 AM ^

It was members of the Iowa coaching staff. Which is far different then sitting with fans. Soup was on his staff but, he still collects a paycheck from Michigan and sitting within the confines of the enemy's staff is a form of treason.
I could accept him sitting with the AD, school president. ect.. but with members of the coaching staff no way in hell!
As for him leaving the cupboard bare-look at the recruiting the last couple years of Lloyd except for his final season:
2005- 1 5*, 10 4*, 11 3*, 1 2*
2006- 2 5*, 9 4*, 7 3*, 1 2*
2007- 2 5*, 5 4*, 12 3*, 1 2*

While there are 5 five stars one is Mallett who transferred and one Grady who never panned out. 4 stars from 2005 that never played for RR or didn't pan out because of injury or otherwise include Bass, Germany, Manningham, McKinney, Schifano, Slocum, and Zirbel. That doesn't leave much left for 05. Out of the 9 four stars from 2006 Boren, Kates, Mixon, and Patterson haven't panned out or left. From 2007 only 3 of the four stars(Williams, Webb, and RVB) and Warren remain out of the 7 four and five stars remain.
Starting with one returning starters on offense for an offensive coach you can understand the cupboard is bare feeling.

Elno Lewis

October 15th, 2009 at 9:56 AM ^

"as long as Lloyd is receiving a paycheck, and hold an office at U-M, he should not be sitting with the enemy."

When Bo was Ad he had John Robinson over to his house for a chicken dinner.

Is that allowed?


October 15th, 2009 at 2:10 PM ^

Or ND/USC fans

Or Army, Navy

Or Auburn, Alabama

Or Texas, Oklahoma

Most of these schools don't like each other, some of them flat out hate each other. I think that OSU is the enemy but hey that's just me.

Section 1

October 15th, 2009 at 9:56 AM ^

is Gary Moeller, who apparently is still invited to team practices once a week, still sitting in his regular box in the old press box. And Lloyd Carr is in another box.

Look, I love Rick Leach and was his classmate. And Rick is doing a huge service to our program in defending RR. But as I look at the Freep hatchet-work by Michael Rosenberg, I don't see any evidence of "insider information" being leaked to support this series of attack-articles. Rosenberg has been able to write this garbage without any apparent input from Carr or anybody else. Indeed, I'd worry a lot more if any of these stories had the credible backing of someone like a Lloyd Carr making specific charges. But that's the garbage part of everything that Rosenberg has done! Rosenberg has got nothing so good. Rosenberg doesn't have any anonymous quotes that might be attributable to Lloyd Carr! All that Rosenberg has are things like the ambush interviews with the freshmen at media day, or the dubious exit interviews with anonymous ex-players.
Like all of you, I see evidence of Lloyd Carr's antipathy. But I don't see evidence of any real subversion.
I think it is actually giving too much credence to the garbage-sucker Rosenberg to link him too closely with Carr.


October 15th, 2009 at 10:04 AM ^

That's all that Lloyd has to do. But he says nothing. I respect his desire to stay out of the way. But there comes a time when silence becomes a detriment.

All of this speculation would go away immediately. All Lloyd would need to do is say something positive about RR, the program, etc.

Lloyd is tremendously respected has a broad reaching level of credibility. That only futher exacerbates the need for him to speak up. At least Leach has the balls to say something and be heard. As crazy as his rants might be. He is standing up and being counted.

Just step up and say something Lloyd. If the Michigan head coach was not RR and one "his" guys (DeBord, English, etc.) there is NO WAY he would be silent.

Just my opinion....


October 15th, 2009 at 10:08 AM ^

Look, I agree with you that Lloyd saying, "Our team is showing great progress, I'm impressed with what Rich has done over the last year." would calm a lot of people down (whether these "people" deserve calming down is another argument).

BUT, how do we know that Lloyd and RR speak on occasion and RR has asked that Lloyd let the current players and staff handle this one? Maybe RR doesn't want Lloyd making a statement because it sounds like RR and the current team need Lloyd to take the pressure off...

This is speculation, but isn't this whole thread? The point is we know nothing of the RR/Lloyd relationship.

willis j

October 15th, 2009 at 10:28 AM ^

but he doesnt even have to come out publicly and say it. I don't know all the inside details but I am sure he attends games and what not. I mean you think a reporter or someone would ask him about "retirement", the program etc and he would say something. But if I remember correctly he has been asked and kind of pleaded the fifth.

Sit on the sidelines, let Holly Rowe or whoever ask, Hey Lloyd, how's it going and how do you think the team looks?

Well Holly I think RR is doing great etc. They are 4-1 what a stupid question you dumb bitch. (I kid I kid)

You tell me this hasn't happened over the 2 years? 1.5 years of games? He doesn't need to hold presser. Look I hate speculating and love Carr and respect him and what he did. It just seems like he is going out of his way to not say anything. It just seem like a scenario like this would be bound to happen and hasnt. Shit every time an old player is on the sideline it seems like they ask them.

And I dont know Carr, if he attends, where he sits and all that. But dont you just think he would be asked?

I'd bet my house that if English/one of his friends go the job he would be much much more vocal and supportive from an outsiders perspective.


October 15th, 2009 at 10:04 AM ^

Everyone is claiming Lloyds silence was proof he hated RR. Now he sits in a box and Iowa and its PROOF! he hates RR. So Rosenberg comes up with an article that states the tried to get records through FOIA and can't because there are no records, and somehow this is the FOR SURE PROOF! that Lloyd hates RR and is being the mole that will get RR out.

Look people, Lloyd stated he would not be involved in the hiring process, he said he would only give the information he was asked for. It his number one goal to stay out of everyones hair and let the new coach be the coach. So when Lloyd isnt around in the new coaches business somehow this is Lloyd behind the scenes as a puppet master? It makes no sense. He said he wouldn't talk. He said he wouldn't be at practice. He Isn't talking and he isnt at practice and now everyone wants to read into it way too much.

Also fwiw. There was an interview with Lloyd before the season started asking him what he is up to with his time off. He was quoted about going to the Iowa game, and going to MNF. This is before the season and before the practice drama. Obviously he had plans to go. And all this "ENEMY" talk. It's stupid. Lloyd has friends. It would be like someone from this blog getting beer with a blogger from Iowa. And he is old and it was super cold. Where do you want the man to sit?


October 15th, 2009 at 12:00 PM ^

You reference the article that I just spent about 10 minutes trying to find. Carr said he's been to every Michigan home game, a couple of NFL games, and that he'd probably hit up the Iowa game.

Let me guess - when he attends Michigan games, he still brings his headset and whispers bad plays into RichRod's ears, right?

Elno Lewis

October 15th, 2009 at 10:06 AM ^

i am glad the intertubes were not around with Texas A&M tried to throw that million dollars at Bo.

And, dudes, do any of you remember Bo coming to Moeller's rescue when old Gary went bananas? So, Bo must have been undermining Gary, right?


October 15th, 2009 at 10:25 AM ^

Its just not Lloyd's style to talk about stuff. The guy would never talk about things when he was coach and it was his job. I don't know why everyone thinks he is going to change now that it is not his responsibility.


October 15th, 2009 at 11:33 AM ^

If I remember what Bo said/wrote in "Lasting Lessons", he was in Mexico when the Moeller Affair broke and he was trying to get a call to Gary to tell him to hold fast and, if nothing else, not resigned, they could figure this out when he got back. But by that point, Moeller had resigned.


October 15th, 2009 at 4:00 PM ^

The real force was Pres. Duderstat who wanted academics to take back control of powerful athletics (which points he made on many a Knight commission after he was pushed out himself). He was trying to do things that would make this board really pissed. And he was a lousy president too.

Blue boy johnson

October 15th, 2009 at 10:04 AM ^

"At least Leach has the balls to say something and be heard. As crazy as his rants might be. He is standing up and being counted."

At this point I discount what Leach is spewing, Leach comes across as the one with the axe to grind


October 15th, 2009 at 10:25 AM ^

Lloyd has never been close with the media. So we expect him to suddenly change that and call a press conference to say "I support Rich"?

Why isn't he talking? Because he hates the media? Because he hates RR? Because RR asked him to stay out of it? Because Bill Martin asked him to stay out of it? Because he just wants to stay out of it?

Why was Carr in the Iowa box? Because he has friends in the box? Because he hates RR? Which one makes more sense?

What about Rick Leach? Why is he talking so much? I appreciate his support of RR. I'm sure RR appreciates his support. But will anything good come out of accusing Lloyd Carr of anything? The only thing it could possibly do is cause a divide in the fanase, right when the fans need to come together to support the team the most.


October 15th, 2009 at 10:29 AM ^

you don't go on the radio and talk about stuff. This is why Lloyd never talks. You say one thing and it blows up. So and so said this. You can't add fuel to the fire. Everyone was pissed there was no comment after practice gate. If you dont talk then its over, done. The media forgets about it and everone moves on. If you say one thing, even in support, the story gets legs and is on front pages for another day. It's just not worth it and I think Lloyd learned that a long time ago.


October 15th, 2009 at 10:53 AM ^

The other thread was deleted so we can discuss this in one thread.

Sorry if that move offended anyone. It's hard to keep up with two conversations that are exactly the same.

So, let's carry on here, ok. Thanks


October 15th, 2009 at 10:59 AM ^

I like Rick Leach and all that, but I have the feeling his imagination is taking a few things too far. I was also happy to see Lloyd replaced by RR, and am excited for the future of the football team. Carr did the best he could his way, and now I sense he is letting RR do things in his own way. So, if Lloyd is staying out of RR's way, and that's what I expect based on Lloyd's personality also, I am not surprised he hasn't come out publicly defending RR. First because that's his personality, and second, if Lloyd is indeed keeping his nose out of RR's business, how can he know for sure that the team didn't violate any NCAA rules (for example). Bottom line, while I don't exclude the possibility of somebody within the AD trying to undermine RR, I can't imagine Lloyd being involved in such a thing. And it's fine if Rick Leach supports this team with all his soul, but he doesn't need to fight any battles for RR because I'm sure he can manage things himself. Actually, this might hurt RR. He is close friends with Rick Leach, and if unsupported accusations are made, it will seem like Ricky is being RR's spokesperson. I wish people will stop fighting, whether it's forum members here, alumni, or people within the AD. We know RR has Martin's support for now, and he will have the necessary time to establish his system here. Let's just sit back, relax, and watch how RR does.


October 15th, 2009 at 11:42 AM ^

This thread, and Rick Leach on the radio this morning, is proof of another instance where sometimes there are just too many fora for people to say stupid shit about the football team you love.

Let Lloyd do what he wants. Rich Rod runs the team now. Anything that gets in the way of me watching the boys on Saturday is useless. I was in Iowa City Saturday, and Lloyd being in a luxury box while I froze my testes off had no effect on my enjoyment of watching my favorite team take a veteran, highly ranked team to within 30 yards of a loss.

And despite the whining here today, my enjoyment of the game, and this team, will not change. Now stop it and focus on what's important - the game. By arguing like this, you're just giving the Freep a reason to write another assfaced column, and giving Rick Leach a reason to go run off at the mouth at WTKA next week.



October 15th, 2009 at 12:00 PM ^

Good for Rick. I'm not sure if Lloyd is to blame for sitting with Iowa people at the game, but I do think he is to blame for the Les Miles fiasco and for not being more publicly supportive of RR. Even if I hated RR, I would support him unconditionally because he is running the program that I love so dearly. To me, undermining RR is one of the stupidest things a person can do. Its counter productive.

el segundo

October 15th, 2009 at 12:07 PM ^

I heard Leach's comments this morning and found the whole thing troubling.

He sounded a little loopy, saying that someone needs to investigate why Carr was in an Iowa box. As many have posted, who cares where Lloyd sits or if he has friends at Iowa? It was a game, not war, and it's not "treason" for Lloyd to "fraternize with the enemy."

He also sounds a little paranoid about leaks from within the program. I haven't read Rosenberg's article, and I wont. But it sounds like he put in a FOIA request for records of the "average team GPA" for past seasons and found out there weren't any. That doesn't mean that someone's minions are leaking information. But Leach sees a campaign against Rodriguez, and he seems to want to implicate Carr in that campaign.

Maybe he's right. But he should have a lot of very clear evidence of that before dropping innuendoes. And he should present the evidence when he makes his charges. It's kind of crappy for him to say, "there are bad people out there who have it in for Coach, and they will get their due in the end." That sort of thing creates hysteria and dissention about Carr and unnamed others, which is the same kind of conduct that bothers him when Rodriguez is the victim of it.

I think there probably are a lot of people in the Athletic Department and elsewhere who have it in for Rodriguez. It seems likely that some of them are Lloyd loyalists. But that does not mean that Lloyd is behind an anti-Rodriguez campaign. Or that Lloyd deserves to be condemned for where he sits at a road game.

It was also crappy for Webb to take that call from Leach and then not follow up with a question or two, asking Leach to say more about what he was talking about. If an ordinary caller dropped bombs like that, Webb would ask for proof or say that the caller shouldn't make unsubstantiated charges. Leach should not be exempted from that standard.


October 15th, 2009 at 12:38 PM ^

I heard the entire Leach call and it is not the first time that he has sounded anti-Carr. If he is correct or not about LC, I don't know, but he shouldn't be talking like that if he doesn't have proof. Later in the program WTKA had a lawyer guest (don't remember his name) who stated that he has talked to LC several times and he is very supportive of RR and the program. I think LC is a class act and I have always felt that he has remained silent out of wisdom. He knows that anything he says can and will be somehow twisted around to sound like criticism of RR. It is a can't win situation. If I were LC I would have also taken the silent approach and if I were RR I would be glad that the previous coach is keeping silent and behind the scenes.


October 15th, 2009 at 12:46 PM ^

While I was of the opinion it was time for Lloyd to retire, I have never thought he was anything but a class act and a true Michigan man. After all the years and time he has given to the program, I find it difficult to believe,whether he likes Rich Rod or not, that he would put the players in any type of compromising position, including trying to sabotage the head coach. If Lloyd were to go public on these issues, Rosen-puke and his cohorts at the freep would twist it negatively and have a field day. This is Rich Rod's program now, and Lloyd is doing the right thing by staying behind the scenes.


October 15th, 2009 at 12:43 PM ^

Has anybody actually FOUND the article that Leach referenced?

I can't find it.

Leach spoke to my class last year, and it was clear he personally has an axe to grind with Lloyd Carr. However, you have to love that he is defending Rich Rodriguez as much as he can- he has a ton of faith in what RR can do here.

The Other Brian

October 15th, 2009 at 1:05 PM ^

First, some basic facts, some which are obvious and some which are not:

1. There are people - powerful people - behind the scenes working to sabotage Rich Rodriguez as UM's head coach, for a variety of reasons.

2. The finger has almost universally been pointed at Jim Stapleton, and there is plenty of motive and opportunity on his part. He was critical of Bill Martin when Amaker was fired, his wife is a Free Press employee, and he is conveniently a regent at the university that employs one of the men that got turned down for the UM job and was not retained by RR.

3. An insider at one of the premium sites basically said in no uncertain terms last week that Ron English was responsible for connecting several of the "anonymous players" to Rosenberg to help the hit piece.

4. The Freep's FOIA request into the academic/GPA issue was very specific, to the point where one can't help but wonder, "What made them ask for that? Why did they think it was something to look closer at?"

5. There have been a couple people in the last few days, whose credibility I cannot attest to, who basically echoed what Rick Leach said today before he said it, that Lloyd Carr is part of this conspiracy (honestly, there is no better word for it at this point). There really is no way for this to be proven, and as I said, I don't have a clue about any sort of credibility these people have.

6. Per one of the insiders whose word IS pretty close to gospel, the wheels are in motion to strike back against the Free Press, using methods that don't involve simply unsubscribing and protesting their advertisers.

Overall, I appreciate what Rick Leach is trying to do. It's time to stop sitting back and taking this shit and fight back, but sooner or later names will have to be named. Leach going on the radio and ranting about Lloyd Carr sitting with Iowa people in Iowa City doesn't really help our side at all, it just stoops Leach down to the level of the people who are gunning for Rodriguez and Martin - throwing around serious allegations without proof isn't going to win this battle.