The decisive 4th down shot?

Submitted by hazardc on

Haven't seen one this straight-on as of yet.

 

MGoBoard

ohioNblue33

November 27th, 2016 at 4:00 PM ^

beating a dead horse here. nothing we can do now. should've kicked their ass without that play. but he does appear to be short. Big calls were missed. But new years 6 bowl appears to be our destiny. Nothing wrong with that. 10-3 - 10-2 year 2 is what we've waited for. But gotta beat them bucks next year.

Joined: 02/28/2013

MGoPoints: 3407

SLS

November 27th, 2016 at 4:13 PM ^

That's the problem. There IS something wrong with that. We've lost to OSU so many times recently that people are becoming complacent. I'm not going to complain about the refs because we had plenty of opportunities to salt the game away, but we deserve better than the orange bowl against Florida state or something.

Joined: 08/11/2016

MGoPoints: 1237

LSAClassOf2000

November 27th, 2016 at 4:12 PM ^

You can hope that they see it that way, but a few things that concern me in that respect is that the CFP committee is pretty obtuse about vital aspects of its criteria and further, they tend to use a vocabulary which suggests that even an otherwise "respectable loss" can still turn your CFP probability estimate from "significant" to "NY6 sounds OK about now" rather quickly, especially if it is your second loss. 

That being said, I will be watching intently when the rankings come out now.

Joined: 01/07/2011

MGoPoints: 130623

Crazy w Cheese Whiz

November 27th, 2016 at 6:36 PM ^

after this loss.

Just a theory, but you have Ohio and winner of Wisconsin/Penn State in the CFP (the CFP has backed themselves in a corner on this)...

The loser of the Big Ten Championship definitely goes to the Rose Bowl, and with two Big Ten teams in the play-offs, and the CFP trying to compensate the PAC-12 or Big 12 for not considering their champ, plus Western Michigan getting a NY6 invite...I think Michigan may be stuck with the Outback Bowl (since we played in Citrus, Buff Wing Bowl last year). 

Joined: 05/21/2013

MGoPoints: 326

anywaytodelete…

November 27th, 2016 at 4:09 PM ^

Saw a reply on ESPN this morning taken from almost directly from behind the play.  Before Barrett was stopped by Gedeon he was beginning to bounce backwards after running into his own teammate's (#88) rear end.  The ball clearly never moved forward beyond #88's rear end -- the entirety of which is behind the white line.

Furthermore, we don't know -- but someone involved with the game should be able to tell us -- whether the line to gain was the edge of the white line, the middle, or the far end. From another post on this blog I read that the line is rougly 4".

If you want to break it down into more detail, you can see that Barrett's white wristband on his left wrist ends on his forearm slightly behind the white line (angles can be deceiving, I know, but this is about a clean a look as anyone could hope for).  Where's the further point of the ball?  Just at or perhaps a tiny bit in front of the hole on the top left of his helmet.  Which is aligned with the bottom part of his tricep and the outer edge of #88's calf - which is CLEARLY and WITHOUT A DOUBT behind the line?

Did the refs have access to this photo during the replay?  Probably not.  But they did have access to the video from the angle we saw over and over again on TV yesterday.  Assuming they had access to the same footage I saw this morning, I'm fairly certain the same kind of analysis can be made and the same conclusion drawn.

So what video did the refs have access to?  And what exactly did they look at?

This was about as controversial call as one could possibly imagine.  The refs came to their conclusion fairly quickly (I've seen plenty of reviews that have taken far far longer).  I hope (but doubt) that someone in the media will seek out a definitive answer to the first question and that the referees are held accountable for answering the second one.

Joined: 10/21/2015

MGoPoints: 281

theintegral

November 27th, 2016 at 4:09 PM ^

The easiest way to approximate the distance short is to look where #88's leg and rear end are. Barrett is stopped by the butt.

From a previous post and from a close up shown from somewhere in the endzone:

There has been a lot of posts stating we need a better (down the line) view of the play/spot or a geometrical spot.  I think there is another way that my son saw immediately before calling his dad.  The play was run in slow motion and, of course, you can put your screen on slow motion.  Click until Barrett is in his furthest position. Barrett has hit #88 Anderson and has been turned so that the ball is nestled in Barrett’s right arm sitting on the rear end (butt) of Anderson.  Barrett is looking down and forward to the 15 yard line.  His left arm is reaching out to just past the 15.  The key here is that Anderson’s full lower body is on the 16 yard line side of the 15 yard line.  Barrett never moves any further forward.  Wormley is actually the immovable object.  Harbaugh’s estimate was spot on.

 

 

Joined: 10/19/2011

MGoPoints: 1147

Bones032

November 27th, 2016 at 4:15 PM ^

Haven't seen any mention on the blog yet, but a reporter on Twitter yesterday said ESPN had an overhead shot that showed he was clearly short but the officials didn't have access to that video. How the F does that happen?

Joined: 09/01/2012

MGoPoints: 1032

Clarence Beeks

November 27th, 2016 at 5:01 PM ^

I said this exact thing after the game! They DID show it on ESPN shortly after the game (I know because I saw it on my tv with my own two eyes and literally said "how much do you want to bet ESPN didn't provide that to the replay booth!"). I've seen zero mention of it since. There is no way possible that ESPN didn't have the view from that camera, as they kept showing shots from it into our huddle all game long. What a total crock of shit, if they really didn't provide it and that is the REAL scandal from this game: ESPN influencing outcomes by not sharing video.



Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad

Joined: 09/06/2008

MGoPoints: 22814

Leaders And Best

November 27th, 2016 at 4:38 PM ^

You can't see anything from this view.  The yard marker is not anywhere near perpendicular with the frame of the photograph so the view is skewed. You can tell this by how the hashmarks are running diagonally.

The only thing of interest here is the positioning of the players to make out time relative to the photo in the OP (which has a better view) as this video still was supposedly at the point of forward progress on video. Delano Hill's position looks different but the other players are in very similar places.

Joined: 09/09/2009

MGoPoints: 22312

mgoDAB

November 27th, 2016 at 4:37 PM ^

Another thing that people haven't really talked about was the body language of all the players. Once the whistle blew, Michigan looked excited and cheerful thinking they had just won the game. Meanwhile, OSU players looked deflated. They know what they saw. Barrett was short.

Joined: 01/04/2015

MGoPoints: 2887

mgoDAB

November 27th, 2016 at 4:41 PM ^

On another note, I thought that was poor tackling by Delano on that play. In that situation, you have to engage, drive your feet, and send him backwards. Instead, he just went in with nothing but his shoulder which allowed Barrett to rebound and give one last little push.

Joined: 01/04/2015

MGoPoints: 2887

OKWolverines

November 27th, 2016 at 4:39 PM ^

The bet shot you will get: https://mobile.twitter.com/MikeSullivan/status/802641487360049153 Look, it's a 50/50 call. You can never bitch about those. Please, if we want our argument to hold any water and be anything other than sour grapes of an entitled and cry baby fan base, let's focus on the issues we have irrefutable evidence, namely the DPI calls. That picture posted is posted as the QB is already going backwards. Please, we look like morons by focusing on the wrong stuff. Focusing on the spot and what fuckig state officials live in is so damn futile and stupid- my toddler handles disappointment and cheating better than this.

Joined: 11/26/2016

MGoPoints: -68

Mongo

November 27th, 2016 at 4:42 PM ^

Wormerly and Hill stayed home and stuffed JT. Ball never broke the plane and if this a TD review it would have been called back for sure. The ball never broke the plane and the video review is alos very clear. Was it close? Yes, and the human error on the field is to be corrected by the video evidence that looks pretty conclusive in this still photo as well as in both slow motion and full speed video. The guy in the both was just intimidated by the moment and there we have it. If this was the NFL, they would have taken more time and then also measured with the chains. These down lines are painted and not all of them are exactly 10 yards apart, that is why they have the chains. Unfortunately, my only conclusion is the B1G officiating community hates Jim Harbaugh and was basically teaching him a lesson this season. As the new coach on the block, the message is clear "don't argue calls like this is the NFL and obey my ulitimate rule because I have no impunity" ... basically, "stand-down newbie".

Joined: 06/25/2016

MGoPoints: 9585

DHughes5218

November 27th, 2016 at 10:15 PM ^

No, they have the chains because the ball doesn't always get spotted at an exact yard line. In this situation the ball started at the 25 and if the ball gets spotted and placed where any part of it is touching the white line of the 15, it is a first down. The line is official, the same as the goal line and they will never measure in that situation. Argue that the ball never made it to the white line, saying they needed to measure with the sticks makes it sound like you think he made it to the 15.

Joined: 10/04/2014

MGoPoints: 7232

Ghost of Fritz…

November 27th, 2016 at 6:36 PM ^

[edit;  intended as a reply to OK Wolverine]

I have to say,  That is the worst video of all.  Can't see anything. 

At best the video supports the theory that the officials maybe could not clearly see exactly how far the ball advanced in the tangle of bodies. 

But the OP pic is NOT of Barrett already going backwards.  Please read the above posts which have already rebutted your argument.

 

Joined: 10/04/2014

MGoPoints: 23880

dbrhee

November 27th, 2016 at 5:34 PM ^

I snippet (to ensure that I am not cropping to doctor but to focus on the video play by on the 4th down) multiple images on 247 and I came back the same and same.. He can't pass the 15 because his OL is in front of him.. His maximum height came when he hit the OL's butt while his left foot is on the 15 yard line.. Even afterward, you could see his (OL) left knee is still front of the 15 yard line..

 

Never made it.. And that doctored picture that OSU fans are giving is clearly a bad angle and behind the play.. They could see the hashline is on a diagonal... 

If you go from front side, you see the 15 yard line not even touched..

Same point

Afterward (and I could concede the left knee made it barely for the OL after the play ended but when JT bounced backward)

 

Side by view:

 

Explanation from front side

https://twitter.com/VermillionEli/status/802622200368930816

Joined: 08/25/2014

MGoPoints: 1640

Ghost of Fritz…

November 27th, 2016 at 6:21 PM ^

Nice job.

Barrett was short.  Looked that way even with the bad angle from the ESPN feed.

But the OP and also these images provide clear proof that Barrett was short.

Refs may have been biased, afraid to go against home team, or merely unable to see the ball well enough and just made a guess.

No satisfaction in knowing that the refs got it wrong. 

 

Joined: 10/04/2014

MGoPoints: 23880

Durham Blue

November 27th, 2016 at 5:22 PM ^

Based on this picture I am pretty damned sure we're going to see definitive video evidence within the next day or two that Barrett was indeed short.  I hope the CFP committee takes notice of it as well and gives Michigan the benefit of the doubt if and when Clemson or Washington lose next week.

Joined: 10/09/2008

MGoPoints: 30004

dbrhee

November 27th, 2016 at 5:28 PM ^

The crew and review was blatantly disregard the clear and obvious...

They did not want to make the call that Michigan stopped them... There was more than enough information to overturn... 

If JT Passed the 15, you have to see the OL ahead of the 15.. He never makes it ahead of it with his lower body except this left foot/knee (at best)...

 You can't pass through the body to get to the 15 yard line.. 

If they do not want to get killed (officials) then you should not be officiating!!! That is clearly the point!!! 

Joined: 08/25/2014

MGoPoints: 1640