The decisive 4th down shot?

Submitted by hazardc on

Haven't seen one this straight-on as of yet.

 

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Chork

November 27th, 2016 at 5:36 PM ^

The spot by the line judge was that he made the 15.  There was no real definitive video evidence to dispute that.  Even 24 hours later everyone is still arguing.  Try to make that call in 60 seconds.  Since it was called a 1st down on the field it stood.  Had it been called short, that would have stood.  Should have stopped them on the next series.

Joined: 07/23/2012

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bluebloodedfan

November 27th, 2016 at 6:49 PM ^

But there are a host of other plays including Harbaugh throwing his script of plays call that lead to fifteen yards and a and an imminent touchdown after the pass interference call of a ball that was uncatchable. Multiple false starts and holds and the grant Perry non call or the darboah call. There were too many miscalls and bad calls to give that last call a pass.

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BlueDragon

November 27th, 2016 at 5:51 PM ^

Michigan won that game. I will maintain this position to my grave. Ohio State needed major black-and-white-striped intervention to even hang around in that game. There will be some major asspoundings in line this time next November.

Michigan Won.

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chs33042

November 27th, 2016 at 5:52 PM ^

anyone put the other shot thats been floating around from up top. Nice to compare the two. I feel with this picture his body is in the same spot as the other one that looks like he is further across. I still say he was short.

Joined: 03/22/2012

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Crazy w Cheese Whiz

November 27th, 2016 at 6:24 PM ^

This is so incredibly subjective and probably wrong very often (this is a fun PhD paper, if someone has the time).

Seriously, its 2016, you could pretty easily place several GPS tags in the ball, geotag a football field extensively, fly a UAV/drone above the stadium, and after each play, it could shoot down a laser to the precise spot where the ball should be placed at the end of each play.

In fact you could be fancy, and have another UAV shooting a laser to the precise first down marker, and do away with the non-sense of the placing the ball here or there, or wherever after each play.

I never understand this about professional sports (and college too to some extent) at present, where so much in resources is dedicated to precision (designing plays and strategy, assuring players are in peak physical condition (nutrition, work-outs, sleep, etc), assuring eqipment is as state of the art as the rules allow, using advanced metrics for deciding line-ups and match-ups, etc), then why do we still subject sports to the inefficiency and probably subjectivity of human officials. Okay, I am getting to sci-fi

Anyone want to start a kickstarter on GPS/UAVs, and doing away with refs spotting the ball?

Joined: 05/21/2013

MGoPoints: 326

Crazy w Cheese Whiz

November 27th, 2016 at 6:24 PM ^

This is so incredibly subjective and probably wrong very often (this is a fun PhD paper, if someone has the time).

Seriously, its 2016, you could pretty easily place several GPS tags in the ball, geotag a football field extensively, fly a UAV/drone above the stadium, and after each play, it could shoot down a laser to the precise spot where the ball should be placed at the end of each play.

In fact you could be fancy, and have another UAV shooting a laser to the precise first down marker, and do away with the non-sense of the placing the ball here or there, or wherever after each play.

I never understand this about professional sports (and college too to some extent) at present, where so much in resources is dedicated to precision (designing plays and strategy, assuring players are in peak physical condition (nutrition, work-outs, sleep, etc), assuring eqipment is as state of the art as the rules allow, using advanced metrics for deciding line-ups and match-ups, etc), then why do we still subject sports to the inefficiency and probably subjectivity of human officials. Okay, I am getting to sci-fi

Anyone want to start a kickstarter on GPS/UAVs, and doing away with refs spotting the ball?

Joined: 05/21/2013

MGoPoints: 326

drawdown400

November 27th, 2016 at 7:06 PM ^

Sounds very expensive (how many NCAA football teams are there? 12 games a season + post season? Only FBS or FCS too?)....and with so many balls (14 per team? 8? Can't remember) in play, how can you track each specifically (as in, how do you know which one is in play?) Also, with so many balls and needing to know which unique ball is being used, manufacturing each GPS-equipped ball would be a pain. Sounds very unrealistic to me. Maybe just for playoff games in 15 years..



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michfan23

November 27th, 2016 at 7:11 PM ^

You're right, it sounds very expensive, but one could argue that there is so much money on the line with each win in major college football that the cost would be worth it.
I think we should have a sideline camera angle at the first down marker just like the NHL has for the blue line. This way we could turn to a definitive review on plays like these.



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YouRFree

November 27th, 2016 at 9:13 PM ^

but i don't think any GPS system can offer you the position accuracy down to mm or 0.5 inch in a millisecond, i think.

 

I do not see what kind of technology can achieve that now. The best is probably to use multple camera and form the 3D image. I think you see it in the soccer game. But not sure how good the accuracy is.

 

I think another realistic way is to do something on the turf to have enough sensor array to detect the football with an RFID or other wireless chip inside the football. But the cost to build the turf and mainance could be very high. calibration can be an issue too.

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mastodon

November 27th, 2016 at 11:52 PM ^

Instead of the superimposed yellow first down line, you make it a vertical yellow plane (or can display it on replay, kinda like sticking your arm into a translucent, vertical pool of liquid) showing precisely where objects (ball) intersect the plane. I believe this capability exists with the 360 multi-camera system they debuted for the last superbowl. Maybe there's a lower tech way to accomplish this?

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Carcajou

November 27th, 2016 at 10:03 PM ^

Even with all that geotagging, how precise could you be?

To add those geo-tags- which would need to withstand a lot of punishment and variations in atmoshperic conditions- to the dozens of balls which would have to be manufactured differently than at present would not only cost a lot of $$, there is a good chance that they would alter the structure and weight and aerodynamics of the footballs. I guarantee you, passers and kickers would HATE them. You would have to do that to dozens of balls, not just one or two.

NCAA schools with smaller budgets (i.e. most non-P5) would HATE the additional expenses involved, and would vote against it.

You'd still have to be prepared with an analog system anyway, in the inevitable case of failure.

A method of triangulation using a few cameras and monitors in the booth would probably give a better result when such things are critical. Different sport, I know, but if baseball can't even get even implement such a system for balls and strikes (where there are hundreds of calls to make per name), I think it might be a bit much to expect a much more complicated system for football. At the end of the day, it's always going to be a best human effort at evaluating this stuff, using technology as an aid.

 

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Mongo

November 28th, 2016 at 8:37 AM ^

that he was short. Wormley' foot is on the line, then use the various body parts to determine ball position to the 15 yard line. Ball hits right cheek of his 88's Butt which is well behind the 15 yard line. 88 ain't no gumbie or contortionist, he is an inflexible TE who Wormley stuffed into stopping JT from the first down.

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YouRFree

November 27th, 2016 at 9:21 PM ^

i always wondering if the ball needs to pass the white 15 yard line or just need to reach the close side (close to the player) to be counted as a first down. I think it depends on where the ball is offically spot to start in OT. Was the ball placed in the middle of the 25 yard line or one the of the end of the line? This is so close that the width of the line make huge difference, we are talking about inches here.

That being said, the reason the ref didn't measure it is because of the line, but how accurate is the distance between the line? if the line is draw by human, it can be easily off by +/- 1-2 inch. Well, again if the ref want to srew us, then they can pull out a 9 yard chain to screw us.

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Preacher Mike

November 27th, 2016 at 9:25 PM ^

The original post shows a point in the play at least a tenth of a second after Barret started to fall back. Here is a GIF of the play from point of most forward progress to the point that is pictured above. Barret and the ball obviously move backward at least few inches.

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Ghost of Fritz…

November 27th, 2016 at 10:04 PM ^

First, in most of this GIF Barrett is not yet falling backward, he (and the ball) are sliding vertically down 88's butt and leg, while 88's whole body is falling slightly forward.  More 88 falling slightly forward than Barret falling backward from his furthest point.  

Moreover, the photo in the OP is not the very end of this GIF.  At the very end of this GIF Barrett's hand grazes the turf.  In the photo in the OP Barrett's hand is higher above the turf (thus corresponding a bit earlier in the GIF).

But maybe was can agree on this much.  From the GIF, the photo in the OP, and every other image out there, the exact location of the ball is not visible to the line judge at the crucial moment.  

Therefore, the spot was nothing better than a guess.  If you go check the video of where the officials place the ball after this play, they place it with the center of the ball resting squarely in the center of the yard line. 

From the photo in the OP, the nose of the ball never crossed the plane of the yard line. 

But it is now ABSOLUTELY beyond doubt that the ball never advanced to the point where the center of the ball was at the center of the yard line.  Yet that is where they placed it.  Line judge could not see the ball. 

The phantom first down was a guess.  And they got it wrong.

 

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Carcajou

November 28th, 2016 at 1:57 AM ^

At  the beginning of this (Preacher Mike's) .gif, his left arm is at it's furthest point forward, reaching slightly forward as his body he turns his shoulders to try to crawl through. The left hand is barely past the line and later landed on the line as he tries to to crawl around the blocker/tackler (#88 who tackled the defender). Barret's left elbow and the crown of his helmet are barely above the yardline at the beginning of this gif; his right shoulder and arm and the ball are well behind it. From that point, he is falling backward.

#88's left leg and hip are behind the line; Barret's arm and the ball are the right butt cheek, further behind the line to gain. Barret said he himself didn't think he made it- that's probably why he was reaching.The ball is above and behind the defender's right thigh as he stradles the line as well.

[Not even sure if the forward progress rule applies here, when you run into your own man and then lose ground to try to get around him.]

Any way you look at it, bottom line: HE WAS DEFINITELY SHORT.
 

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Mongo

November 28th, 2016 at 9:38 AM ^

also confirms he was short. Look at 88's left leg up through the left cheek of his butt - both are behind the line to gain. JT's helmet looks like it touches that line, but the ball does not. Wormley did a great job of holding his ground before the line to gain and stuffed it. Look at Wormley's foot in the gif and use it as your guide to when forward progress has stopped, then draw line straight up to JT. Wormley's foot is short of the line and 88's left knee and left hip are even shorter than Wormley's foot. Unless 88 is Gumbie it is physically impossible to draw any other conclusion as 88's left foot, left knee, left hip are all behind the line which clearly stopped forward progress of the ball even short of that.

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IH8OhioST

November 28th, 2016 at 3:05 PM ^

The ball was started in the middle of the line, and the orginal spot the tip of the ball was halfway through the line, then he handed it to the other ref who put the ball even farther up. I don't know how to post a screenshot from my phone but if I figure it out I will post it.

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