OT - State files federal complaint against schools with Native American mascots
A complaint filed Friday by the Michigan Department of Civil Rights is asking the federal government to step in and prohibit the use of American Indian mascots and imagery in K-12 schools across the state.
The department filed the complaint with the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights. The complaint cites 35 Michigan K-12 school districts — including Clinton and Tecumseh — responsible for “alleged discrimination.”
The schools are known as the Clinton Redskins and the Tecumseh Indians.
The complaint says research now shows the use of those mascots and imagery causes “actual harm” to American Indian students by lowering self-esteem and impacting student achievement...
http://www.lenconnect.com/article/20130209/NEWS/130209430/-1/Editorials
Mod edit: I think most viewpoints were heard and there was a good debate on some topics, but we've hit a point of no return with the political line. JGB
February 11th, 2013 at 7:54 PM ^
"If I like their race, how can that be racist?"
-Jerry Seinfeld
In all seriousness though, it probably is a good idea to stop doing this kind of thing.
February 11th, 2013 at 9:31 PM ^
You're serious?
February 11th, 2013 at 9:48 PM ^
About which part? The Seinfeld quote is what's known as a joke, and the second sentence was serious.
February 11th, 2013 at 7:51 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 7:51 PM ^
The complaint says research now shows the use of those mascots and imagery causes “actual harm” to American Indian students by lowering self-esteem and impacting student achievement...So is the reverse true - when schools drop Native American imagery, does it increase student achievement? Is EMU's Native American graduation rate up since the switch?
February 11th, 2013 at 8:04 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 8:21 PM ^
What do you mean, "that's not how research works?" What is the point of this if they're not going to track student performance after the mascot change? They've got plenty of experimental groups already - there are many schools that have already changed their mascots. They are flat-out stating that "actual harm" is being done by having these mascots, so they should be able to document the healing that should go on when they're dropped.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:28 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 8:37 PM ^
Let's set aside abstractions for a minute here. The state is specificially allegeding that the use of Native American mascots - alone - causes "actual harm" to Native American student performance. You don't think it's important for them to follow up and track these students in the absence of this supposed stressor?
I don't really care about these nicknames one way or the other. I just find this specific claim by the state to be dubious, and I'd love to see their methodology.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:44 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 7:58 PM ^
I love how these assholes are worrying about things as trivial as this when there are much bigger problems going on.
My old high school is probably going to give in and change their name. Shame since they've been around longer than the state of Michigan has been in the union.
We saw this happen to the Univ. of North Dakota. Probably the #2 in terms of greatest hockey programs next to Michigan, with arguably the coolest names around. The Fighting Sioux. An alum donated an arena to them and one of the conditions was he would do it only if they'd keep the name. Welp, he donated the arena, and the Feds made them change their name.
UND has no official nickname. Just a green ND now.
You could make an argument the fighting irish is "offensive".
February 11th, 2013 at 8:10 PM ^
1) You think Fighting Sioux is a "cool name" because it sounds cool. It is also pretty offensive to the Lakota tribe.
2) The "Feds" didn't make them change the name; the NCAA threatened their post-season eligibility, and in a state-wide vote more than 2/3 of the residents voted to nuke the nickname.
3) People always bring up the "Fighting Irish" thing, as if the history with those two groups is even REMOTELY similar. My Irish ancestors faced some employment discrimination. My Native American ancestors faced some "move over here and/or die" discrimination.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:27 PM ^
1) You think Fighting Sioux is a "cool name" because it sounds cool. It is also pretty offensive to the Lakota tribe.Is this true? From what I remember, there were two tribes concerned in the matter. One voted in favor of keeping the nickname and the other never held a vote for bureaucratic reasons. I don't believe the tribes themselves spearheaded the change. Also, regarding the statewide vote, that came after the NCAA made it clear it wasn't bluffing about stripping the school of hosting rights. The name seemed to be popular in North Dakota before the NCAA got involved.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:27 PM ^
If I can add one counterargument, yes, there are much bigger problems in the world, but this was filed by the Michigan Department of Civil Rights, and this is the type of thing that is their responsibility. I'm sure they'd have solved Syria, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and partisan gridlock in Congress if it weren't for this distraction.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:31 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 8:35 PM ^
went and named themselves the "Berlin Hebes" or something, I know I'd be pretty pissed off. It's not cool that the group that did the persecuting gets to go and name their team in "honor" of the people that they persecuted.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:55 PM ^
Don't just take this as cranky old man talk and I know U.S. government - Native American relations have been miserable at least, but is it really denegrating their history for a bunch of 6th graders to be named the Souix? What about the pseudo-Boy Scouts with the Indian names? Hell, Florida State and the Seminole tribe actually get along quite nicely. To me this just seems like a bunch of snooty academics perceiving some imaginary evils where there are none. If a tribe were to approach a school and ask that the names be changed, that would be a different story.
And I don't know what "group that did the persecuting" means... I'd imagine that a large segment of the posters on this board didn't have ancestors who lived in the U.S. pre-1900, so are we to blame as well? Sorry, but the PC stuff just irks me. Reasonable politeness is fine, but when it gets to the point where the potential for offense is enough to require change, it appears simply rediculous.
~Herm
February 11th, 2013 at 9:06 PM ^
in a different comment in this crazy thread: I'm okay with team names for specific tribes as long as there is the consent of said tribe to use that name. Hence I am okay with the Seminoles or Chippewas since those people are. What I'm not okay with is a name like the Redskins, which is a racist term that is on a par with the n-word in historical context. Racism has no place in sports.
February 11th, 2013 at 9:10 PM ^
It's less offensive to be "the Sioux"
It's more offensive to be named the "the fighting Sioux"
And it's even more offensive to be named "the redskins"
February 11th, 2013 at 9:25 PM ^
The Fighting Irish anyone? So a drunk Irishman is fine, even with the Irish stereotype as violent drunks, but the Fighting Sioux is inherently racist?
Agreed on Redskins.
~Herm
February 11th, 2013 at 9:35 PM ^
as a control group, they should track the performance of Irish American kids and their performance after attending Notre Dame (which as you know is French, and not Irish).
If there self image suffers then there is consistency. Plus I would like to see that School in South bend to stop exploiting my people.
February 11th, 2013 at 9:49 PM ^
Even if the Indians liked the idea of having a school mascot named after them (or a college, just look up the SDSU Aztec fight from the late 90s) all it takes is one guy/girl to say they are offended and that dude/chick is going to get propped up by some pro bono to make a point.
This shit will never end because as long as somebody is offended, sabres will rattle somewhere that we must "do something" so no one is hurt. I can see other names being considered offensive, take any name associated with violence or crime:
- Marauders
- Vikings
- Bandits
- Pirates
And so on and so on. It will be done in the name of saving the children from the next Sandy Hook I'm sure. Oy vey.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:51 PM ^
This isn't exactly the same, but always causes me to chuckle when team/school mascots come up:
I live in Washington State, on the East side, my wife has some family that live in Central Idaho (I know, keep all Idaho jokes to yourself). In the town of Orofino, one of the towns premier employers is a mental institution... The highschool is located relatively close to said institution and here's the kicker, their mascot is the 'Maniacs' complete with the logo that is a cartoonish crazy person.
I understand the threat of people being offended and trying, in some way, to make amends for past wrongs, but when is the voice of the offended maniac ever going to be heard?!
February 11th, 2013 at 9:41 PM ^
but actually it's not. Racism against Native Americans is pretty rampant in North Dakota and among fans of the Fighting Sioux. I don't get it, myself, but it's pretty blatant. (BTW: I've been up there, and I have two friends who are faculty and staff at UND).
[EDIT: for clarification, I'm responding to the comment by evenyoubrutus]
February 11th, 2013 at 9:50 PM ^
This is a pretty accurate read on what I saw and heard in ND:
In North Dakota, people went to the polls on June 12 to vote whether to retire the “Fighting Sioux” mascot. However that vote turns out, it may be a temporary decision. A group called the Committee for Understanding and Respect has been circulating petitions for a second referendum that would change the state constitution to declare the University of North Dakota (UND) forever be known as the Fighting Sioux. In years past, supporters of this mascot have produced t-shirts with what appears to be an Indian having sex with a buffalo. Nothing helps make your point like a little sexual marginalization.All of this requires a bit of a history lesson.In the year 2000, the board of regents at UND voted to retire the offensive mascot. In stepped their biggest alumnus, financially speaking, Ralph Englestad. Mr. Englestad, who had just donated 35 million dollars to build a new hockey arena, immediately fired off a letter to the University president stating he’d pull all funding from the school forever. In short order, the school reversed its stand on the mascot. Money talks, and sometimes it apparently screams and hollers.
Who is, or was Ralph Englestad you ask? (He passed away in 2002) He was a Las Vegas casino owner who collected German, and specifically Hitler memorabilia. He was fond of throwing Adolph Hitler birthday parties. He had a painting of himself in a Gestapo uniform with “Love, Adolph” written in the corner. Yes, this drips with gargantuan amounts of pure unadulterated irony. And yet, it does follow a pattern if you care to connect the dots.
February 11th, 2013 at 9:11 PM ^
How about the fact that the Irish were ethincally cleansed from N. Ireland in the 17 century? Or the centuries of brutal oppression by the English?
February 11th, 2013 at 9:23 PM ^
Which is why the Fighting Irish would be a terrible name for a European soccer club.
February 11th, 2013 at 9:59 PM ^
Background, history, etc should have no impact or bearing on present day discrimination. Presenting an Irsh person as a short red-haired rapscallion in a green suit is flat out racist and VERY offensive to a lot of Irish. But what you are saying is because they were only partially discriminated (NINA for example), that they are just going to have to sit back and deal with it.
Discrimination is discrimination and should be equally intolerable regardless of history.
February 11th, 2013 at 7:54 PM ^
is CMU gonna have problems next? I wonder what the NCAA thinks about this...if they happen to think at all.
February 11th, 2013 at 7:58 PM ^
Probably not, since the local Chippewa tribe has officially given CMU permission to use the name.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:04 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 7:58 PM ^
The NCAA won't allow schools with Native American mascots to host official events unless they have specific tribal permission. CMU has obtained that from the Chippewa tribe, so they should be okay. (EMU apparently never bothered to ask the Hurons how they felt.)
February 11th, 2013 at 8:59 PM ^
because there are no fucking Hurons.
February 11th, 2013 at 7:55 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 8:57 PM ^
you sir, win the thread
February 11th, 2013 at 9:35 PM ^
What do you call the Africans who captured, enslaved, and then sold Africans to Muslims and Europeans? What do you call the Hutu who butchered the Tutis? What do you call the Khmer Rouge? Or Stalin? Or Mao? Or Hitler? What do you call the Mayans who ritually slaughtered countless members of neighboring tribes?
Racism is no different than any other form of oppression the world has seen. It's just that we are now far more sensitive to the subject of prejudice and oppression then generations before us. We perceive as unique behaviors that are not unique.
More to your point, few of of us today living in the US have little concept of what it was like in Dachau or in the Jim Crow South, much less the antebellum South. Sure, we can read of Tulsas and Rosewoods, of the Middle Passage, of the naked barbarism of slavery itself. But we can never understand it. Some want to try link modern America with the past, but the racial prejudice today is far different then what Jackie Robinson suffered through. Sure, it still stings emotionally, but there are no mobs of racist breaking into jails to lynch black men nor are white men torturing and killing 14 year-old black teenagers for daring to--allegedly--whistle at a white woman. None of that exists today. Instead we have debates over perceptions of a justice system imposed Jim Crow and allegedly racially discriminatory Disney characters.
The fact is most of America "doesn't understand" racism. The word is so often bandied about that it has become a catchall word for what is really prejudice or bigotry. We now have conflated the insane hatred of a Byron de la Beckwith with the bigoted bloviations of a Rush Limbaugh.
February 11th, 2013 at 9:40 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 9:42 PM ^
of racial violence in the US today. For just one of many examples that immediately spring to mind, those white supremacists that dragged a black guy behind their pickup truck to his death by decapitation down in Texas about a decade ago, but there's plenty more recent too.
February 11th, 2013 at 7:56 PM ^
This is sad.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:11 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 8:02 PM ^
For the board's information, here (I know, Free Press, but it had the list) is the list of schools specifically cited in the complaint and the county in which they reside:
Metro
-Brother Rice Warriors (
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-New
-
-
-Walled
-Woodhaven Brownstown Warriors (Wayne)
Schools from across the rest of the state
-
-
-Belding Redskins (
-Camden-Frontier Redskins (Hillsdale)
-Capac Chiefs (St. Clair)
-Cheboygan Chiefs (Cheboygan)
-Chesaning Indians (
-
-Dowagiac Chieftains (Cass)
-
-
-
-Kinde-North Huron Warriors (Huron)
-
-
-Morley-Stanwood Mohawks (Mecosta)
-Newberry Indians (Luce)
-Paw Paw Redskins (Van Buren)
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-Remus Chippewa Hills Warriors (Mecosta)
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-Saranac Redskins (
-Saugatuck Indians (Allegan)
-Tawas (City) Area Braves (Iosco)
-Tecumseh Indians (Lenawee)
-Tekonsha Indians (Calhoun)
-White Cloud Indians (Newaygo)
-White Pigeon Chiefs (
In addition, here is the complaint, and their supporting documentation.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:04 PM ^
"Warriors" is a Native American name? I'm pretty sure other nations have gone to war, too.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:07 PM ^
when this is your "warriors" logo, this is when it doesn't pass muster
February 11th, 2013 at 8:39 PM ^
Fair enough. Having never seen their mascot before, I would not have assumed that their nickname had any specific racial connotation. When I hear "Warriors," my first association is with the NBA franchise, and I don't think they play up any kind of Native American connection.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:57 PM ^
Shouldn't the name Chippewa Hills be changed as well? If they didn't have permission from the tribe, why should the town be named after a group who they persecuted and probably kicked off that land.
~Herm
February 11th, 2013 at 9:04 PM ^
February 11th, 2013 at 9:47 PM ^
You're alright, Herm.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:32 PM ^
Milan is the Big Reds too aren't they?