Mailbag: About Obviously
via the always brilliant Prevail and Ride. Warning: cartoon genitalia ahead.
Should the Late Carr Malaise be re-evaluated in light of the fact that USC and Ohio State were cheating on epic scales?
The Horror, 2007 Oregon and 2005 Minnesota still happened, of course. But 2003 and 2006 might look very different to us if USC and OSU hadn’t been quite so stacked—in which case we might see 2005 and 2007 as off years rather than symptoms of a systematic decline.
Yours in Michigan Football Historiography,
BML
Possibly? It's impossible to tell how much of an advantage Ohio State got with its Tats For Everyone program and USC got with its Look, Snoop Dogg(!) program, and the list of knocks against Lloyd Carr's career gets a lot shorter if you remove "could not beat USC or Jim Tressel" from the list.
Carr might be regarded on par with Bo today if he'd flipped some scores in USC Rose Bowls and 2006's Football Armageddon, during which Troy Smith torched Morgan Trent. Troy Smith got a wrist-slap for taking 500 bucks, but given what we know now it seems improbable that was all he did. If he was in the supplemental draft, Michigan plays for a national title with Jake Long and a bizarre dominance of Florida instead of still-drunk-from-last-night Alex Boone and a paralyzing fear of the SEC.
However, while Carr's career might have been truly legendary without Cheatypants Sweatervest and Pete Carroll tag-teaming the NCAA rule book, the degradation at the tail end of his career wouldn't have changed. No one did The Horror to Michigan except Michigan; no one else lost that bumper crop of instate talent and left the program with six offensive linemen and only one primadonna itching to leave between Michigan and total quarterback implosion; no one else provided Michigan zero plausible in-house options in a program that evidently needed one.
HOWEVA HOWEVA, a hypothetical win in one of those Rose Bowls or Football Armageddon might have avoided that fate because it would have caused Carr to retire earlier, avoiding a good chunk of the nastiness comprising the last four years. Sans cheating, Carr probably has two or three more wins that swing public opinion of him from solid B+ to Bo 2.0.
Hey Brian,
I was having a facebook conversation with a guy I played football with in high school. He played at a moderately successful IA school from a non-BCS conference, and made the comment that "this goes on at every big-time school." It's important to note that he is NOT any kind of an OSU fan, and that when he said "big-time" it was to note that it didn't happen at his school. Now if "this" means the ebay and the tattoos, I don't really care too much. But if "this" refers to raiding the equipment room and the improper benefits, than I'd like to step off my high horse.
I know he's not really in a position to know, and I know neither are you - but please speculate for me. When the Reggie Bush thing broke, everybody said "well that's how USC dominated." When the Cam Newton thing broke, it was "that's how the SEC dominates." Not it's Ohio, and people say the same thing. But at the same time - Rich Rodriguez did convince an awful lot of people from the south to come to Michigan. Most southerners I know bristle when they hear the word "Michigan" just because of the thought of cold. Maurice Clarett and Terrelle Pryor both took official visits to Michigan. Am I just being paranoid when I get nervous about Brady Hoke kicking butt at recruiting?
I say that we just had NCAA investigators pore over our program, brick by brick. I say that similar scandals to the tattoo scandal broke with AJ Green and at UNC without it implicating the institutions as a whole. But I can't help but be a little nervous - do we have anything to worry about? Do all the "big boys" do this kind of thing?
I think the eBay thing in general has started talk about reforming college sports scholarships and restrictions on activities. But if the shadier parts, of agents and boosters, is widespread - if all the major programs have their own Ed Martin - then can college sports as we know it continue to exist as we pretend it does?
Sorry for the long email - please tell me there are no monsters under the bed.
-anon
I can't flat out say "there are no monsters under the bed" after the Jihad. During that I repeatedly assured everyone that Michigan's compliance was Serious Business that would have all this stuff amply documented. Instead we got a lot of emails from Ann Vollano to Brad Labadie and zero in return. Things can break down; what we saw during the Jihad was a broken system that needed a revamp. It could have exposed Michigan to something serious if they had recruited a 6'6" sociopath instead of the world's nicest cheetah strapped to a jet engine and pushed out of a plane.
HOWEVA, in the aftermath a large number of people lost their jobs (or sought other opportunities or whatever other euphemism you would prefer—I like "succumbed to gumball addiction"). With Michigan on probation and Dave Brandon acting as new sheriff* things are on lockdown right now as they're ever going to be. When things are on lockdown the worst thing that happens is some kid does something wrong with some agent and gets suspended a la Marcus Ray or AJ Green. (I'm not so sure UNC is going to get off with just their suspensions, FWIW. Wasn't John Blake in some serious dirt?)
As to your larger point, no, I don't think This Happens Everywhere. That Texas walk-on's story demonstrates there are places that are serious about compliance. Here's beloved MGoStoryteller CRex with a local example:
As someone who once helped a football player fix his car, Michigan compliance was so far up my ass there was a blue lot in my lower colon and I almost got my own blue bus stop. The player bought the tie rods and I did the labor since I knew how and had the tools. He paid me for my time in beer and pizza. Compliance jumped all over this and figured out the hourly rate for a mechanic was greater than the cost of the beer and pizza, thus he still owed me money. I attempted to lowball my time estimate for doing the job, they talked to a real mechanic and got the official time estimate for tie rod replacement. They were also unimpressed by the fact I helped all my friends fix their cars in exchange for beer and pizza. So they basically stood over him while he wrote me a check for what they demanded the difference was. They also made him pay my uncle who let us use the lift in his garage.
I tossed the check aside and figured "I might cash this if he gets drafted, maybe". Someone though noticed the money never came out of his account and started calling me about cashing the damn check. This was old school Carr era though.
The next time I worked on his car I sarcastically sent them an invoice (six page writeup for helping him replace two brake pads) "for their records", they crosschecked all my time estimates and sent me back an approval letter and a genuine thank you for the paper...
While it's impossible to prevent local restaurants from giving players extra chicken wings or free cover, there is a level of shadiness that can be effectively regulated. A debate about whether amateurism is ethical is outside the scope of my brain right now because I'm so happy I'm not wearing pants.
*[While it's obvious I'm ambivalent about Brandon these days what with the whole creeping advertisements, night game uniformz, and failure to put Special K's head on a pike two minutes after taking the job, the way he handled the NCAA investigation both during and after is a huge, huge positive. Our athletic director may suffer a curly fries mascot in Michigan Stadium and refer to the department as "I" but…
…it could be so much worse.
Also, video replay in Yost.]
How does Tresselgate (and rumors of systemic NCAA violations) compare to the Fab Five fiasco in terms of sheer magnitude, and in terms of discredit they bring to the university in question?
-- bjk.
They're pretty similar. In both you have guys taking extra benefits from guys who may or may not technically be boosters, and in both the violations stretch over some years with multiple players. (With way fewer players on scholarship, four basketball players is approximately equal to the 28 Buckeyes SI say are trading stuff for tats.)
The major differences:
- Tressel lied to the NCAA multiple times; Fisher didn't.
- Michigan fired Fisher immediately and without regret, then went into their Day Of Great Shame routine. Ohio State tried to convince everyone this was worthy of a two game suspension.
- Ohio State had plenty of warning in the public eye from the Clarett accusations and the Smith handshake. Michigan had never brushed up against similar allegations.
I'm guessing Tatgate will be worse from an NCAA standpoint. In the end, Michigan got one year of postseason ban and a one scholarship penalty for four years. If Ohio State gets off with the equivalent they'll be skipping and everyone will be outraged. From a program standpoint, it won't be as bad because Ohio State isn't going to hire Brian Ellerbe. From a shame standpoint, probably worse since at least Michigan didn't go around pretending everything was cool.
Michigan should have #1 covered. Didn't the university start requiring its players to register their cars as one of the actions taken in the wake of the Ed Martin scandal? I always assumed that requirement applied to all the athletes--not just the basketball players.
I read that Troy Smith was visiting sick children just before the 2006 game AT A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL. Therefore, it is by the law of physics impossible for him to have taken $500 or committed any other violation.
I chuckle every time BC says that Brandon refers to the athletic department as I.
The CRex story made me happy in a strange way.
I love how many idiots still think Robert Traylor, Maurice Taylor and Louis Bullock were in the Fab Five.
They were marketed as the "New" Fab 5 in the press, but noted.
The Fab Five II was actually the 1994 recruiting class of Maceo Baston, Travis Conlan, Willie Mitchell, Maurice Taylor, and Jerod Ward.
There's no question in my mind, OSU doesn't beat us without Troy Smith. Without Clarett, I have a hard time seeing them win either. Although their defense was incredibly singy in 2001, Clarett had some big plays, although we had some curcial mistakes (interceptions and dropped passes). Pryor...well that's not really the Carr era. But take away Clarett and Smith and we very well could have had 2-3 more wins in this rivalry. But, that hardly means much now for anything other than sour grapes.
They beat us with Todd Boezman at quarterback. The excuses and "what ifs" are for losers. We were owned. Let's admit and move on into a better era.
Todd Bozeman was a crook coach at Cal.
Todd Boeckmann is who you're talking about.
Good call.
Correction: They beat us with a quarterback whose name was not even worth remembering.
It didn't work out like we'd hoped.
Clarett was 2002, 2001 was the Navarre - Doss INT game.
Regardless of Troy Smith, I think UM beats OSU in 2006 on a different field. The turf was completely unstable that day and it proved a huge disadvantage given the way the two teams played. I think Chait wrote an article about it after the game here or somewhere else.
go cross eyed. I have to agree with everyone, mostly, because there are so many valid points and variables that do affect outcomes. But pointing to field conditions? That affects both teams. Dropped passes, shitty PI calls, players later thought to be ineligible who weren't at the time, geeezzzz. How about we were outplayed and outcoached? Is that so hard to admit? I hate OSU and Tressell, Pryor and every other ass (exception Speilman) who came out of that craphole, but Tressell was a very, very good coach.
Troy Smith was a 3-star athlete prospect.
Michigan out recruited OSU from 2002-07.
If you go by the sites that rate players for a living (Rivals and Scout) this is a fact.
Tressel beat Carr with Coopers players.
He beat Carr when OSU was 7-5 and 8-4.
People can try and use this as an excuse for Carr.
The fact is, Tressel outcoached Carr to the tune of 6-1.
End of.
Can we please stop pretending that USC and OSU "cheating" had any impact on those games? The fact that Reggie Bush's uncle was receiving apartment payments doesn't negate the fact that he ran 4.4 40s, along with the rest of his team that was infinitely more athletic that our teams. Same goes for OSU.
Now, if recruits knew that the coaches were dirty, and this helped the schools land a few extra studs, thatd be another story, but I highly doubt that this was a factor in choosing schools.
But let's stop pretending that some UMich players aren't getting unmarked envelopes with $1,000 in them every couple of weeks. This happens at nearly every major basketball, baseball and football program, and there is no reason to believe that Michigan football is any different.
RichRod had a lot of class, along with Carr, and from what has been seen so far, so does Hoke. I'm sure our coaches would not let the problem grow to such great extent, but it doesn't impact the fact that we lost handedly to those teams, and many of our players receive benefits. So we can take pride in the fact that our institution is most likely much much cleaner, but let's not pretend that those games would have come out any different.
"Now, if recruits knew that the coaches were dirty, and this helped the schools land a few extra studs, thatd be another story, but I highly doubt that this was a factor in choosing schools.
You think they only started getting things after they got there? I think you are misunderstanding how this things work. I would wager that the kids were given lots of this stuff in order to get the to go to the university, not just given stuff once they got there. Either way, once they started getting stuff (whether before going to the university or while at the university) it would be a violation and depending on severity could lead to them being ineligible.
So how's that explain Tressel starting to beat Michigan from DAY ONE with the previous coach's recruits?
HE. WAS. A. BETTER. GAME. COACH. THAN. CARR.
Fact. Cease denial. What the hell is wrong with you people that have to spin it? I am going to kill someone if I keep reading this thread or any other that excuses those losses. The poster you responded to is dead on.
I hope you consider suicide as an option.
Funny.
I wish I could say the same about your complete head-in-the-sand denials about Carr getting his lunch eaten in the Ohio State game from 2001 on.
They should have been ineligible, along with any other player that opens his mailbox and receives a random envelope full of cash without turning it in. Again, it's not proven, nor do I believe that our coaches know if it, but if we don't think that this has been happening at every Big 10 program to random players over the last two decades, then we're just being naiive.
Naivety is not exceptoinal among some of the snobs that inhabit this board.
why don't you just stop spewing your garbage long enough to take a moment and ponder what is being talked about here. Whether Tressel or Carr are the better coach isn't the topic (which you are either to dumb to realize or are being willfully obtuse in regard to the topic at hand).
The question is, if these players (and coaches) were cheating and therefore the recepients of an unfair advantage, should they have been able to participate in the games? If the answer is no, could the outcomes of those games been different? Those are the topics being explored.
If a few hours of extra practice gets you an unfair advantage and is considered major violations, what are these things coming from OSU right now?
It isn't often you see a jackass riding on a high horse, but perhaps you could get off yours long enough to have a rational conversation for once.
The level of homerism on this board when it comes to this topic is what you'd expect to find at Bucknuts or RCMB, for christ sake. I am trying to BRING rationality to the discussion, to a bunch of snotty, narrow-minded Joe Morgans who don't want to hear it.
I know what the point about eligibility is. And I think it's lame. The assumption is being made that Michigan is squeaky-clean and every Ohio State player you hear a rumor about must have done something that compromised the eligibility of their entire career. That's Sparty stuff, man.
I also know that people are having a very hard time coming to grips with how badly we were outcoached in this series of recent games. It's all rather pathetic. Tressel cheated. Let's be happy he got fired and that we have a new coach who is bringing positive vibes to our program. This re-writing of history is not only petty but the logic I am seeing used is as flimsy as can be.
I'm actually going to agree with you a bit about the fact that Tressel outcoached UM at times. That said, he also apparently started kids who were ineligible and at the very least turned a blind eye to various other activities that could have endangered his players' eligiblity. And guess what, making sure your kids are going to class, not breaking the law, not violating NCAA rules, etc. is part of coaching, and Tressel apparently turning a blind eye to that for the betterment of his record IS a failure on his part and needs to be factored into any discussion of OSU "dominance" the past decade.
Carr was no saint and might have been an inferior x's and o's coach, but nothing like Pryor would have been allowed at UM - he cared too much about the legacy of this team to let that happen. And the same probably goes to Clarett, who was instrumental in that team winning both the UM game and the NC that year. Plus, with UM still fresh off the Ed Martin debacle, compliance + Carr would have severely curtailed the rampant abuses that apparently took place under Tressel, if for no other reason than that they were still licking their wounds.
So yeah, it isn't delusional to say that OSU had a decided advantage over the rest of the B10 the past 5-7 years in light of what has come out. Tressel found that keeping in line with NCAA guidelines hindered his ability to field the best team possible, so he seemingly ignored those rules and the violations by his players. It does not appear that any other coach in the B10 did the same (or at least to that extreme of a level), and thus were likely hampered as a result. So while I won't disagree that Tressel's teams were the cream of the crop in the conference, don't act like his flaunting of the rules didn't help those teams be better or that other coaches would be benefitted if they had adopted a similar approach.
I am trying to BRING rationality to the discussion, to a bunch of snotty, narrow-minded Joe Morgans who don't want to hear it.
"The level of homerism........"
1) It's a MICHIGAN FAN BLOG. There's going to be homerism.
2) Why do you hate everybody and everything said? Go hang out on tRCMB so you can endear yourself to other people who don't want to listen to what anyone has to say, just because they're "homers."
God you're an insufferable jackass.
Priceless.
Martin's association with Michigan was well established prior to the Fab Five. He even joined Webber's church when the kid was in high school. From our own Michigan Daily:
http://www.michigandaily.com/content/ed-martin-revealed-his-long-and-in…
As I recall, with the extent of the Michigan basketball problems, didn't the NCAA say we came awfully close to the death penalty? The O$U fiasco seems to be a lot more systemic and blatent than that ever was.
With how big of a program O$U is, I don't expect the NCAA to go to that extreme. But doesn't it almost seem like they should? I guess I need to research the SMU situation 30 years ago to make a more valid comparison.
It isn't really that similar. SMU were paying players, got caught and put on probabtion, continued to pay players and got caught again if memory serves me correctly. There is a big difference in what is going on at OSU. Dirty...but not that dirty.
What?! We only got a one-year postseason ban after winning our appeal! So no, the NCAA did not say "Hey, you almost got the 'death penalty, fellas.''"
was a great watch.
But yeah, based on what SMU had to do to get the death penalty (and how the powers that were are on record as saying, in retrospect, they regretted giving SMU the death penalty after seeing what the long term effects were on the program) I'd say there's no way we were close.
Ultimately, shouldn't the biggest determining factor relate to competitive advantage? Did the violations give the program a clear leg up on other teams, either in recruiting or the games themselves?
It's funny. The tatt-selling, in and of itself, really didn't give the team an advantage (except to the extent that recruits may have been attracted somewhat by the perception that OSU looked the other way about tattoos and such, FWIW). But Tressel's cover-up, which allowed ineligible players to play, gave the team a competitive advantage in, at minimum, the bowl game. The coach cheated; the AD and president cheated (via its bogus "investigations.") So the cheating was systemic. So the hammer's gotta fall.
2010 rose bowl ring I believe...
Sorry for my ignorance, but who is Special K?
He plays those sick beats!
For special k's ignorance. And by you I mean all of humanity.
With respect to whether Lloyd Carr would be viewed differently had USC and tOSU not cheated..........
<br>
<br>Appalachian State.
<br>
<br>Need I say more?
One freak loss is enough to overcome 13 years of excellence.
I'd hate to live in your world. So would Frank Beamer and Nick Saban and Pete Carroll, three coaches who suffered worse defeats than Carr's loss to App. State, since Carr's loss.
Agreed
Carr had Brady and Henne, possibly the two best quarterbacks in Michigan history. And he won squat. I watched a replay if the Alabama orange bowl of 2000 and the DeBoard play calling drove me nuts. It wasn't until they were behind that lo and behold the offense magically opened up. Remember the Minnesota game where they fell hugely behind and Navarre became a receiver? I would really like to see some semblance of a creative and unpredictable offense. Carr coached not to lose all the time. Even his trick play was predictable. Once or twice a game there was the compulsory end around. So it was not just the appy state game. If Carr had more talent, it would have been WASTED just like he wasted Brady, Henne, Hart, Arrington, Breaston, Manningham. All that talent won squat.
<br>
<br>My wish for Brady Hoke is that Al Borges uses Denard and all of the playmakers on the roster.
<br>
<br>Now Rich Rod was unsuccessful and even the Illinois victory felt dirty, but a return to Carr crap will make me sick. And revising history to say that Lloyd Carr is on par with Bo is just totally and completely wrong.
Wow...I haven't seen you blow up like this in a long time.
Let's see, over those 6 years, they won two Big Ten Titles. Not squat. Also a BCS Bowl game that "drove you nuts". And Brady did beat OSU. Not to mention the all the games along the way. People bag on DeBord, maybe justifiably so, but all the complaining about trick plays and QB play...our offense wasn't our big problem; if anything our defense tailed off some. And when it picked back up, we had 2006.
but I think the question is, if UM beats OSU a few times (while Tressel was there) and wins the USC matchup (because if the players who should have been ineligible weren't playing, that is a real possibility), would it be enough to overlook something like APP state.
I was one who thought Carr was losing it toward the end of his career and thought we needed a change. Despite that, I think his legacy would be much different had he got a few more wins over OSU and won against USC. You take those players out of the game (Bush, Clarrett and Smith) and it isn't a given that the outcomes would remain the same, though it isn't a sure thing that they would change either.
It's highly likely that those three are not the only players who should have been ineligible. As in this most recent instance where the December 2010 report indicated 6 players and the SI article indicated 28, it is likely that a lot more people than just Clarett and Smith were getting illegal benefits that would have rendered them ineligible during those years at OSU. Bush by himself was enough to make a huge difference at USC, although the layoff plus it being a home game for USC would have been hard to overcome in any event.
Because if Carr were beating USC and OSU with regularity wouldn't that mean UM was a juggernaut that could've recruited even better players than they were getting, and wouldnt that upgrade in talent greatly reduce the likelihood that UM loses to App St in 2007?
Michigan's throw back uniforms for the Notre Dame game are BUTT UGLY. They are intended to wipe the last decade from the collective memory of the Michigan fan base.
THE PICTURE ISN'T THE REAL THING
<br>STOP POSTING
Send him to Bolivia!
Troll! <throws brick>
Comments