What would it take - QB

Submitted by blue in dc on July 23rd, 2021 at 8:18 PM

About a week ago, I posted to start a discussion on the offensive line.   That seemed well received so here is a second on quarterback.    I think there is general agreement that the two biggest question marks on offense are: 1) Will we have a quarterback step up; and 2) will the coaches also step up in game planning/playcalling etc.    This post takes on the first question.   I think about that question in two parts.   The first is, “what does it mean to step up?” and the second is how realistic is it to assume that someone will in fact step up.

There are at least 3 teams (Indiana, Wisconsin and Ohio State), who have a very real chance to score 40+ points on us.   That means that if we don’t have a quarterback who can leas the team to more than 40 points a game, we are capping our potential at no greater than 9-3.   To me, stepping up means putting the team in the position to be in every game.   Obviously this isn’t all on the qb, but having good enough players at wide receiver, running back and offensive line, as well as a coaching staff willing to take advantage of those pieces, means nothing if the qb can’t take advantage.   

This means we need more than a game manager.   We need a quarterback who brings at least four things to the table.   First, they recognize the plays that are there.   They make the correct calls and don’t throw to a double teamed receiver when someone else is wide open.   Second, they complete the throws that are there.   Between 2018 and 2019, Shea Patterson increased his total yards by over 400 yards from 2600 to 3061.   Unfortunately at the same time, his completion percentage fell from 65% to 56%.    In 2019, twenty three college quarterbacks had completion percentages of 65% or better.   Third, they can’t make too many mistakes.   A quarterback who can do all of that might get us to 8 or 9 wins, but they probably are not going to get us to 10+.    For that, we need a quarterback who brings something more.   For instance, they need to not just make completions, they need to put there team mates in position to make plays.   They need to throw it when and where their teammates can get yards after the catch.   If not that, they need to be able to extend (and then actually make) plays when their protection breaks down.   Other skills they could bring could be an ability to run the read option very well, or to consistently make those deep throws.   The first three skills can make a good quarterback, but to move to that next level, they will need to bring more.

What makes me hopeful is that I think we have at least two quarterbacks who have the tools to be at least good quarterbacks this year.   The question is, do either  of them have the potential to be more than that.  

Cade McNamara, the current leader for the starting role was a 4 star, ranked as the 7th best qb overall and the 268th player overall.   (Rankings are from 247 composite).

With regards to my first criteria, can he make the right play there is some very positive evidence.   In his hello post, his football smarts were emphasized.  “He shows a great understanding of offensive concepts and can recognize defenses at the line of scrimmage”.   One of the things that Brian noted in his Rutgers UFR is that McNamara was much better at making reads than Milton.  “Milton got filed for zero RPOs, zero zone reads, and zero screens in this game. McNamara had six screens, four RPOs, and three zone reads. I may have missed something here or there but I mean… one of these had speed in space elements and the other absolutely did not.”  Matt Weiss also noted "You can say he's not enough of this or not enough of that, but at the end of the day, he's really smart. He makes great decisions. He processes things very fast, and his accuracy and arm strength are more than enough to win with."
With regards to accuracy, the positive is that he threw for 75% against Rutgers.   The question marks are, it was Rutgers and his best season percentage completion in high school was 62.8% in high school.   He also does not appear to make many mistakes.   He had 5 TDs to no interceptions last year, and for his high school career, he had 146 TDs against 35 interceptions.   Dropping his freshman year in HS, it becomes 129 TDs vs 25 interceptions.

A 60% to 65% completion ratio with a good touchdown to interception ratio doesn’t seem like an unrealistic expectation, but does he bring anything extra that makes you think he can lead us to 40+ points against Ohio State and Wisconsin?  One of the strengths in addition to feel for the game/football smarts is his ability to throw under pressure.   He is praised for his ability to throw on the move, get rid of the ball quickly and to stand in and make a throw while getting hit.   If you go back and look at the Rutgers game, he showed all of those abilities.   The only question is, can he do it against a better defense.  What are the big question marks? First, can he run?   For a guy who seems to thrive on scrambling, there is very little evidence to suggest he is going to be much of a runner.   Arm strength.   These are some of the things analysts had to say about him:

“good decision maker out of the gun … accurate passer who is able to fit the ball into tight windows… poised and confident … touch and timing. Changes ball speeds nicely. …Marginal height and strength. Not sure he has elite arm power."

" …moxie …competitive edge …not going to wow you with mind-boggling athleticism or arm strength but he's not going to make mistakes. … heady, skilled quarterback"

His biggest competition is 5 star freshman J.J. McCarthy.   We’ll start with his qb coaches Fred Jacksonesque description: "McCarthy reminds me of a guy that throws like (Drew) Brees but moves around like Baker (Mayfield).”   It sounds like an exaggeration, then you read his sophomore year stats: 3448 yards with a 76% completion percentage and 39 TDs to just 4 interceptions.   His completion percentage took a hit his senior year at IMG falling to 57%, but he had zero interceptions to 16 touchdowns and led IMG to an 8-0 record and a mythical national high school title.

Unlike McNamara, there are no questions about his arm strength or athleticism.

“great frame, big hands and is a plus athlete and really can make every single throw that a QB needs to make. He was able to place the ball in small windows, throw with a lot of velocity and also put great touch on the deep …[threw] marvelous passes consistently despite frigid temperatures and untimely winds. …delivers smooth passes with zip and touch, depending on the throw. He's got plenty of arm strength to make accurate throws and his ball placement is uncanny -- on both short throws and downfield.

The two questions are, 1) Is he ready to start at the college level and 2) If he is, are his skills and athleticism superior enough to Cade’s that he can overcome Cade’s three years in the system.

Our third qb option is Alan Bowman.   By far the most experienced of our quarterbacks, Bowman has 19 starts and has thrown for over 5000 yards.   He has a career 67% completion rate.  He is also a bit more mistake prone with 33 TDs to 17 interceptions.  He is also not a threat to run with -9 yards in 46 attempts.   He is going to have significant catching up to do, but so e are very high on him.

“he can be a truly elite quarterback in the right scenario. Now, I’m not sure Michigan runs an offense that compliments Alan’s talents but the kid at his best is as good as any signal caller. If he gets back to form, I’m not kidding when I say he’s good enough to help Michigan challenge Ohio State.”

While some think he may be the answer because of his experience, he hasn’t played well against good teams.

“In all Power 5 games, he’s been just a 62.6% passer.  Meanwhile, against other teams, he’s completed 75.3% of his passes.  Taking it even further, Bowman has a TD: INT ratio in Power 5 games of just 4:3.  That is 16 TDs and 12 picks.”

I came into this putting this piece together thinking we had three guys with a legitimate chance to be a very good starter this year.   While I believed it unlikely that all three would hit,I thought chances were good that at least one would be a hit.

When I finished, I decided we only had two, but they each had a better chance of being very good this year than I thought.   Try as I might, I could not find anything to excite me about Bowman.

McNamara and McCarthy are a different.   McNamara seems like a much less flawed Shea Paterson. He may have similar physical tools, but he appears to have a much better feel for the game, makes better decisions and gets the ball out quicker.   We will have to see McCarthy against a college offense, but he shows both arm strength and touch.  I think McNamara can keep us in the game against anyone not named Ohio State and if McCarthy is good enough to beat him out, who knows what happens,

 

 

KentuckianaWolverine

July 24th, 2021 at 12:52 AM ^

I always love fans getting on fan pages and telling everyone how the team should be ran.  Even down to particular downs and distances/pass run ratio.

I'm sure you're not a head coach or even an assistant coach for any major college football program.  Nobody is paying you millions of dollars a year, for your opinions.  Why is that?  You have all the answers, right?  ?

This is why we are fans and they are coaches.

JacquesStrappe

July 24th, 2021 at 1:55 AM ^

I don't have all the answers but you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.  And I'm just throwing in my two cents on to the OP.  Just my opinion and it could be, and may likely be wrong. But we have already been paying experts millions of dollars and look how well it has worked. I could do a whole lot worse than them, but like you said, I'm also not paid anything.  Who knows maybe at least a few of these ideas have some merit.  Can't be afraid to speak your piece.  What are your suggestions? 

I'm not anti-expert.  Most of the time they have the best answers.  Sometimes they don't and when they don't, given that they are experts and usually are compensated as such, they can expect that criticism comes with the territory.  Sometimes you can also be too close to a situation to be objective about how to fix something that is not working up to your standards, which I assume is national championship aspirations based on what everyone in the program and many on this board professes. Clearly we are not there.  If 8-4 to 10-3 seasons are what we want, then fine we can keep doing what we're doing.  But it won't get us to the promised land. 

Not that any of this really matters because this is just a lot of hot air and a place to blow off steam.  So don't take such offense.  It wasn't personally directed at you.

outsidethebox

July 24th, 2021 at 8:18 AM ^

The fact is that you have excellent points here. I am quite sure you have played-and maybe even coached...because you speak to some nuances that go well beyond the generic "coach-speak" crap that most generic fans get all caught up in. I have played and coached at the college level yet my opinions and philosophies of play are simply mine. And the fact is that, here, even experts will disagree. I can only imagine the dynamics in play with being the HC of Michigan, OSU, Alabama...football. And sometimes we coaches get too close to situations and lose perspective. Folks who get their panties all in a bunch over expressed opinions in this regard are generally fans who don't have a clue about what goes into deciding who is on the field...or what is in play in those split second decisions that take place on the field.

My viewing of Cade's tape says that he is throwing early based on his pre-snap reads about 90% of the time-even that TD to a wide open Johnson is thrown very early in the play before he is wide open. And I like this a lot because it generally results in a throw that is more accurate/catchable...and values the skill of the teammate-gives them an opportunity to make a play. (I believe Michigan squandered a nicely talented Patterson by advising him to attempt to do things that were beyond his development-to be both more complicated in the reads and error free in the execution than he was capable. A victim of "Perfect is the enemy of good".) Cade, to me, looks to be the consummate competitor who has an elite will to succeed and win-nothing fancy...just make the play and move the chains. He may have the will and the ability to play over the top of even good coaching-which great players do.

JacquesStrappe

July 24th, 2021 at 4:59 PM ^

Thank you very much for your support.  I have not played but my father did and I have been around it most of my life.  

I have to fix my tone because it is obvious that I am coming across as a know-it-all and I am self-aware enough to know that recognizing that you have a problem is the first step toward fixing it.  But, I can't help getting annoyed at all of the enabling and coddling we give the team.  It's possible to be matter-of-fact when highlighting a deficiency that is intended to be a teachable moment and not an adversarial pile-on. 

The problem with some of the folks on the board and in the program is they take any criticism, even constructive suggestions about how to fix something as blasphemy and disloyalty.  I get that everyone can see when something is not working so pointing it out is a Captain Obvious approach and not very helpful.  However, when you try to spell out an alternative that might explain how to fix a problem people should be open to listening because they might actually learn something that they did not consider. The intention is not offend but to improve.

Like Art Shell said, you are what your record says you are.  Being in denial and basking in past glory does not change that.  Tradition that does not renew simply becomes nostalgia.  That's where we are right now. 

It is a testament to whiny attitudes, that instead of accepting this, many people here want to spin the wheel of excuses and blame Jim Delaney, bag men, Big Ten officiating, or some other bogeyman for Michigan's inability perform up to expectations.  Even the coaches deserve a bit of a break.  You can give the players all the tools but they are the ones that have to be able to execute. 

When you get done blaming everyone else, in the end you only have yourself to blame for coming up short.  Yes, sometimes calls and other things don't go your way.  You can sulk about them or you can have some sense of agency and find a way to overcome.  Say what you want about OSU, Alabama, or Clemson, but that is what they do.  That's why they are championship caliber teams with championship cultures.  Besides emulating their style of play we may need to swallow our pride and emulate some of their culture as well.  

blueheron

July 24th, 2021 at 7:49 AM ^

First, have a game-plan that is not afraid to challenge defenses by establishing the pass early on to establish the run later.  Second, inculcate a culture that is aggressive and filled with guys that are not afraid to make mistakes "because coach is gonna be mad".

I had a pleasant dream recently where the team I followed was aligned with those two points. Then I woke up.

Golden section

July 24th, 2021 at 9:44 PM ^

There were plenty of passes to backs. The first play of the season was a pass to Corum. I'm not sure where the 'dogmatically refuses to throw to backs' comes from. Evans, Chabonnet and Corum all caught passes. Edwards has hands as well. 

In most games the pass was the first play. So set up the run by establishing the pass is an over-simplification and somewhat inaccurate.

The point about being less predicable has some merit though. You do want to keep opponents off balance and guessing by passing on running downs and running on passing downs enough. 

You don't think Cade or JJ have moxie and intangibles? You think they're afraid to challenge defenses? You don't think they can read the RPO?  And you are basing this on?

The RPO is designed to be simple. You call your play based on one guy.  So an over-complicated RPO is an oxymoron.  

Most quarterbacks are alphas and have been leaders their whole lives. You do want to have a culture that allows for guys to make mistakes, learn and grow as opposed to being shell-shocked. Brandon Peters had no confidence when he went to Illinois. They let him lose and relearn to focus on what he did best and filtering out the noise. The results were evident.

As for OSU receivers vs UM. I'm sure you know better than most services and pundits but last year they recruited the number  1, 5, 10, and 16 best receivers in the class this year so far they have the 1, 14, 15th. So yeah they're better polished. So I guess you are saying let's just recruit like Brian Hartline? I don't think anyone thought of that. Why haven't you been hired?

As for the Oline, their pass blocking was a lot better than their run blocking.

If it was so easy as you suggest everyone would do it.

 

wolverinebutt

July 24th, 2021 at 12:10 AM ^

When Cade entered the Rutgers game we were on the verge of another Appy State type loss.  The entire O was lifted up by Cade's play.  We needed almost perfect QB play and he delivered on the road, from behind, and behind a poor O line. 

If we have a O line/run game and defense he is going to win us some games.  I saw quick and good decisions.  I saw crisply thrown balls with no hesitation.  The kid has game.  I'm more worried about all three levels of the D.  They were clueless, lost and out gunned as we all saw last year.  If you don't agree think of the Sparty game and it might change your mind.  Sorry to being up the Sparty game.  That still hurts.                 

uminks

July 24th, 2021 at 1:46 AM ^

It will be interesting to see  how summer camp plays out. If JJ makes big strides, we might as well start him and get him ready for 2022. If Cade fends off JJ, then hopefully Cade will play well through the season. It will be interesting to see if JJ can unseat a senior Cade in 2022, which I doubt if Cade ends up  having a good year. But if he does not and JJ has to step in this season, it will give JJ some game experience before taking over in 2022.

OldSchoolWolverine

July 24th, 2021 at 3:03 AM ^

Everyone seems jaded by the past season but with a new staff, i think we all will be pleasantly surprised. I think we are gonna have a great season and the defense will be good, and we will beat OSU. They are breaking in a new QB and we have stability at it and a good one.   

Go for two

July 24th, 2021 at 6:10 AM ^

The problem I see with Cade is what we started seeing in the Penn state game. The defense will crowd the line and dare him to throw over the top. They take away the short throws and make him beat them long. Unless he can consistently hit the deep ball, he will be average against the better defenses. He is not built to run the ball much, so the threat of him running is not as great which puts pressure on the running game. This is why I think he is a good backup but not the starting QB to beat OSU. We need to develop JJ this year for the starting job. I could see JJ starting by mid year. If not this year, than certainly next.

outsidethebox

July 24th, 2021 at 8:34 AM ^

The good news here is that a player like Cade will take a hard look at the PSU game and make the essential adjustments. He did bring Michigan all the way back in that game-he did his part. 

I expect JJ to be very good but the general fan expectations at this time seem to be unreasonable. He only completed 57% of his passes last year with the best talent in the country at his disposal. I do believe the young man is a gamer-a winner who will do his part. I like his playing comps-to Mahomes. 

DennisFranklinDaMan

July 24th, 2021 at 8:44 AM ^

I know it was just against Rutgers, but ... after all, Milton was overwhelmed against that same Rutgers team, in that same game. So seems like we have most of what we need for a comparison, at least. What I was most impressed by with Cade was his willingness to let 'er rip. He seemed to know where to throw the ball, but more importantly, he trusted his receivers to make the play -- he got rid of the ball quickly, with zip and confidence, and his receivers got the ball.

That was something I honestly hadn't seen since ... maybe Denard, honestly (and I wasn't a big fan of him as a drop-back passer). I'm not saying Cade is better than Gardner was -- he's not -- but it was wonderful to see a quarterback not hesitate, not second-guess, not worry, and enjoy the damn game and throw the damn ball.

(I'm aware, if those throws had resulted in multiple INTs, I might not be so enthusiastic about his performance -- but they didn't, and I am).

Look, if McCarthy can bring the same moxie, that's fantastic. But I'm less concerned with arm strength and physique than I am with a guy who's excited to throw the ball, and who trusts his receivers to be where they're supposed to be. Please, Jim, please, let your quarterbacks be aggressive.

micheal honcho

July 24th, 2021 at 10:54 AM ^

At this point Gardner can’t be used as any sort of measure. Except to say he was definitely not good enough to make an otherwise inept offense effective. Which would be a big ask for anyone. He did not sniff an NFL roster which means that his skills & measurable’s were not impressive enough to merit even a FA signing and a chance to develop on the cheap holding a clipboard. Ryan Mallet, another M QB that never led a coherent offense(albeit in Arkansas) apparently did. Today’s game is without a doubt a game of quick decisions and fast accurate release for QBs. Doubly true on a team that’s not Clemson, Bama, OSU elite at almost every position. I pity the NFL gm that spent a pick on Justin Fields. His release is so slow he’ll throw more INTs than TDs in the league and be gone quickly IMO. 
 

What I want to see at M going forward is a TRUE meritocracy. You earn your start in camp & practice but that only guarantees you the 1st q of the 1st game. From there your PT is results based period. I’m convinced that the biggest advantage the elites have over the wanna be’s, like M at this points, is internal competition. At every position it’s a heartless “perform in the game or be replaced” culture that simply won’t allow you to take1 fucking play off without being in jeopardy. Due to the quality of the 2 guys right behind you. This season M appears to have 3 viable options at QB . The hook and the ever present threat of it HAS to be in our players mindset at every position. If a RB misses the intended lane or whiffs on a blitz pick up. He sits the fuck down to ponder it while someone who’s chomping at the bit for his shot gets it. Same for the QB, the WRs, the O line. The whole damn team! Harbaugh has to live like he’s got a bench full of 4-5 stars until someone rises up and plays like they are. Physical limitations are what they are and you can’t do much as a coach to overcome them but we have to treat mental mistakes like Army or Navy would. Their systems simply die on the field if they tolerate even a guard missing his combo block 3x in a game. He won’t be there for a 4th time. When Shea missed the read on the DE for the 3rd time in a half!! The fucking back up drum major should get a shot if that’s what it takes to motivate and focus the guy who’s supposed to be the “ elite” one. I’d rather lose epically with a nobody playing than let some elite dude make mistakes like it don’t matter. Accountability time at M. No more excuses. 

Bo Harbaugh

July 24th, 2021 at 9:50 AM ^

There have been years, recently, where a dominant QB could have led us to the playoff or even a national championship.  Heck, had Wilton Speight stayed healthy we win that game in 2016,

UM 2016, 2018 (despite other weaknesses) are playoff teams with good QB play and potentially national champs if lead by a Tua or Trevor Lawrence type talent.

Blue@LSU

July 24th, 2021 at 11:39 AM ^

Just another reason not to play Indiana before OSU. Both Winovich and Gary were injured heading into the OSU game after taking cheap shots from IU players, not to mention the cheap blindside that led to Berkley Edwards being carted off the field.

People on this board love to talk about Allen as if he's some great coach, and he's certainly done well at Indiana. But his teams have been some of the dirtiest that we've played in a long time, and he does nothing to put the breaks on it. In fact, he defends their play in press conferences. So I say fuck that guy. 

micheal honcho

July 24th, 2021 at 11:07 AM ^

BTW. I hate to imagine how many games a 5* like Tate Martell would have gotten at M before he got the bench. Elites don’t fuck around. Get it done or move along son. Excuses are cheap but scholarships are not. The only place I’ve seen Harbaugh even remotely enforce this type of mindset is with his place kicker. 

MGoStrength

July 24th, 2021 at 12:47 PM ^

A 60% to 65% completion ratio with a good touchdown to interception ratio doesn’t seem like an unrealistic expectation

That would be 2018 Patterson, 2016 Speight, & 2015 Rudock.  That gave us 10 wins, but I don't think that's enough in 2022 with all the defensive changes and question marks to get 10 wins.  That's enough to win 8 games, but unless we've got a top 10 defense it won't be enough to beat Wiscy, PSU, Indiana, or OSU in 2022. 

Now, if that 65% completion rate comes with 700 yards of rushing, like 35 TDs, 9 INTs, and another 2000 yards of rushing from our top 2 RBs that's different.  That's Barrett in 2017 (with Weber & Dobbins).  By comparison Haskins & Fields blew that out of the water.  I'd say we probably need a passer rating in the 150s or 160s to be competitive Wiscy, PSU, & Indiana and more like the 170s or 180s for OSU.  A passer rating in the 140s, which is what 2018 Patterson, 2016 Speight, and 2015 Rudock did probably won't get UM to 9+ wins unless the defense is a top 10 unit.

 

2020

Milton - 56.7%, 4 TDs, 4 INTs, 124.6

Mcnamara - 60.6%, 5 TDs, 0 INTs, 134.1

 

2019

Patterson - 56.2%, 23 TDs, 8 INTs, 139 

 

2018

Patterson - 64.6%, 22 TDs, 7 INTs, 149.8

 

2017

Why bother?

 

2016

Speight - 61.6, 18 TDs, 7 INTs, 139.8

 

2015

Rudock - 64%, 20 TDs, 9 INTs, 141.5

MadMatt

July 24th, 2021 at 1:15 PM ^

What it boils down to is that we need Jim Harbaugh to be the (^#%^&#^$(@Q&*%&)#$(*%*()#)@_*()$!!!!! QB Whisperer for the first time since the second half of Rudock's season.  Be the guy you were at every other stop in your career!

JacquesStrappe

July 24th, 2021 at 5:14 PM ^

I like Cade McNamara. JJ looks like a beast in waiting but let's anoint him and discount McNamara too soon.  We made that same mistake when we platooned Brady and Henson. McNamara has shown poise and grit when thrown into the deep end of the pool unexpectedly.  He sees the field well and processes quick which allows him to get his throws out early to give his playmakers chances.  He seems to me to show the same signs of having the IT factor that the better college signal callers have had.  Let's see what he can do.