Talking Cars Tuesday - Vehicles for Young/New Drivers
Mates,
I know, its not Tuesday and I am not JeepinBen. Guilty as charged. But in my defense, Thursday is the only other day of the week that starts with a 'T', the two days are like kissing cousins. Also, I have read posts by JeepinBen, so we are like brothers. (with apologies to JeepinBen)
We are at that point where the young ones are turning into driver-eligible teenagers faster than sparty commits felonies. I have an old farm pick up that is semi-reliable and they can drive that but I think I need to add to the fleet. I am well-versed in pickups, but the vehicle that has caught my eye lately is the generic Subaru from, say, 2005-2012 time period. Seems like low cost, and AWD is a biggie for us living up north. We have 1 tons/pick-ups so maybe something smaller now? Please remember we are country mice so our budget is limited. So the two questions are:
1. Would/did you ever own a Subaru? Please share the good and the bad - reliability, mileage, safety, cost to repair, whatever you've got.
2. Regardless of your answer to Q #1, what do you think are good vehicles for new drivers? I am particularly interested in 4WD/AWD rigs, but of course others may benefit from your suggestions of regular 2WD vehicles.
XM
January 17th, 2019 at 1:47 PM ^
https://insideevs.com/chevy-volt-tops-j-d-power-three-year-dependabilit…
Not getting stranded is a huge criterion for me. :-)
But I've never read that the Volt is bad.
January 17th, 2019 at 1:59 PM ^
Lmao, JD Power!? Oh man, if you put any stock in JD Power then I have a bridge to sell you!
January 17th, 2019 at 2:17 PM ^
Vouch. My buddy told me over the weekend that he did JD Power surveys when he got his car serviced at a dealership another buddy ran and he always gave him the highest rating.
January 17th, 2019 at 2:44 PM ^
I do actually. But not just JD Power. I read as many different sources as I can. I've not read that the Volt is a bad vehicle. But YMMV, I was just curious what your basis for saying the Volt wasn't as good as the leaf was.
January 17th, 2019 at 3:09 PM ^
Trust what you want man, but JD Power is a joke.
My source is primarily knowing numerous people that have directly worked on and repaired cars for decades. The cumulative data from places like Consumer Reports, Edmunds, etc you can get some nuggets of useful data, but that's about it. I'll trust the people that have spent their lives directly working on the machines in question.
January 18th, 2019 at 9:17 AM ^
Why/how is JD Powers a joke? I mean, I think any survey based system has issues. I believe CR does as well, though I take their information as well.
Ironic though, I have a group of guys that have worked on those vehicles as well.
I'm guessing that neither of us has the full data set, but if your research has served you well then good! Mine has for me. I'd have no problems getting either a Volt/Bolt, or Prius. And if I had to make a choice I'd pull the trigger on the cars with greater range.
January 17th, 2019 at 1:39 PM ^
Is that like just your opinion man or do you have any facts to back it up?
According to consumer reports the 2015 Leaf recieved better than average marks on reliability from owners
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/great-time-to-buy-a-used-electric-vehicle/
January 17th, 2019 at 1:57 PM ^
A bit of column A, a bit of column B. I know a number of guys who have their own auto shops. Consumer reports and whatnot have some value, but I trust cumulative real world experience directly from the guys who work on them more than anything else.
Leaf is fine, not great, but fine. The general quality of Nissan isn't what it used to be since they got bought out. Definitely better than GM for the most part at this point.
January 17th, 2019 at 4:04 PM ^
You mean auto shops with no experience in dealing with electric cars? I think it is more of their insecurities shinning through...
January 17th, 2019 at 4:17 PM ^
Nope, don't mean that, thanks for trying!
January 17th, 2019 at 4:02 PM ^
This is just illogical. There is nothing simpler than an electric motor. It is just a big magnet with coil around it. Compare that to thousands of parts required for a gas engine with fluids and cooling system everywhere.
The only real maintenance items for electric car is brakes and battery. Most companies have 8 year warranty for battery so you are covered for at least that period.
Looking at owners board for these cars, most of them are extremely happy with their cars.
January 17th, 2019 at 4:11 PM ^
I think part of the problem is that talking to people in autoshops may give you anecdotal information about repair costs but tells you very little about overalll reliability. A mechanic who repairs few EVs very well may tell a friend that EVs are a pain in the ass to maintain because they are so different than much of what they are usually repairing, working on one may both stick out more and have provided them with more challenges as they are less familiar with them.
January 17th, 2019 at 4:15 PM ^
Of course they're more simple, that's one of the main advantages... in theory. The reality is that the components don't last super long right now because the tech is relatively new. A Corolla is still going to generally last longer with fewer issues because, even though more complex, the parts are higher quality and it's been engineered and tweaked over decades to improve even minor problems.
The other part is that the rest of the car and its components are not necessarily great either. Fiat is largely junk, you think their electric car is magically going to turn into a becon of reliability? What it's built with, how it's engineered, and how it's assembled are going to have a greater impact on reliability than simply having less complexity on paper.
I have no doubt electric cars will surpass IC cars in overall reliability at some point, but we're not there yet, especially with so many manufacturers trying to make their vehicles as cheap as possible to maximize profits.
January 17th, 2019 at 5:12 PM ^
That may or may not be true, but what you’ve heard anecdotally from a few friends who work in auto repaishops is probably not the best way to get the answer to get the answer.
January 17th, 2019 at 5:40 PM ^
That's a massive assumption about what exactly I have and have not heard, who my sources are, and my ability to discern anecdote from actual trend. You can believe it or not, but I assure you it's more than merely anecdotal.
January 17th, 2019 at 10:41 PM ^
I’m not assuming, I’m reading what you wrote about your own experience earlier in this thread.
‘I know a number of guys who have their own auto shops. Consumer reports and whatnot have some value, but I trust cumulative real world experience directly from the guys who work on them more than anything else. ‘
January 17th, 2019 at 11:50 AM ^
I think you are on the right track (no pun intended). I have heard good things from other parents regarding pre-owned Subaru Imprezas. Get them something from 2012-2014 with reasonable (<70k) mileage.
Other than that - I have rented Ford Fusion AWDs, and they are very good cars as well.
My only advice - research, research, and when you are done, research some more. There are some great pre-owned vehicles out there - find the best one for your needs.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:00 PM ^
I like Fusions alot. But for an older one the only thing that scares me is the turbo 4. That might not be rational nowadays, but blown 4's always seemed more touchy when I was growing up.
What about a Ridgeline?
Might be able to find an old Canyon/Colorado for a decent price.
January 17th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
My only suggestion is to do your best to put them in a safe car. It became readily apparent to me when my son and his friends became drivers that new drivers have a penchant for running into shit! Thank the good lord none of the kids in our circle of friends, team, family have been injured, but more than half have banged into anything from neighbors houses (going backwards, mind you), to parked cars (that was my lad...cop asked him if he thought he was "coming in a little hot" after looking over the scene).
FWIW my bride drives a 2016 Subaru outback and loves it. great in the slop and has good safety ratings.
January 17th, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
That's funny. As soon as I saw the subject line I thought 'For me a Subie wouldn't be a bad local car...'
For the year range you are looking at, you might want to do a bit of research. My buddy who works on my cars said that the early aughts Subies had some head gasket issues...
I like Subaru overall. The boxer design of the engine can make getting work on them a bit of a more expensive pain in the butt; and it's almost a cult in traverse city, driving up prices. But they are good little cars. Kind of like a not as likely to rust, more reliable AMC Eagle. ;-)
For myself... man. This may be over protective, but the small offset front crash videos I've seen really scared the crap out of me. My daughter is 3 years away from driving, so it makes me want to get something built after '11 so as to take advantage of chassis modifications to handle that type of crash.
I had been thinking Impreza/outback/forrester; 500/Sable; 300/200 (200's can be gotten dirt cheap, even with AWD)... but my thought process is not fully formed.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
you done with that AWD taurus yet, neighbor...?
January 17th, 2019 at 12:34 PM ^
LOL Sadly, no. My daughter needs braces and I have to kill some credit card debt so I may have to see if I can get another 1.5 years out of it. The AWD just conked out at 190K, so I don't know if it's still as interesting, but eventually I would love to see it go to a good home though!
January 17th, 2019 at 11:58 AM ^
my in laws live in southern Vermont and all drive used subarus as winter cars. Not sure they ever take the snow tires off. timing belt point is key. Otherwise, they are basically indestructible.
BUT, for a kid who is at a much higher risk of a crash, I would be more focued on safety than indestructability, fwiw.
January 17th, 2019 at 11:59 AM ^
IMO snow tires are far more important than 4WD or AWD for winter driving
Can't tell you how many 4WD vehicles with crappy summer tires I have seen in the ditch or spinning out at stoplights on slight inclines, while I effortlessly cruise on past in my FWD sedan with snow tires
Snow tires + AWD or 4WD is practically unstoppable
And even more important than either of those, for any driver but especially teens, is defensive driving and knowing how to drive in winter conditions
January 17th, 2019 at 12:16 PM ^
I am a huge, crazy, nutjob tire zealot.
You can have the most advanced, best car in the world, and I can have a beater, but if my tires are better and yours suck then my car will handle better.
That said, good tires and AWD are huge things. I went AWD, then tried to rent a car without it. Wife tears. General unhappiness. Not again.
I am not the most financially successful MgoAlum. So I can't afford 2 sets of tires. Because of that I role with Nokian WRG3's.
January 17th, 2019 at 11:59 AM ^
I've owned 6 Subaru's, 2 currently, and was heavily involved in the tuner world with them for about a decade, so I'm pretty well versed on them.
I would get something 2011 or newer, the 2011 models were a step up in overall quality than the previous years. Don't get a turbo, just get a NA (naturally aspirated) Impreza/Forester/Legacy/Outback.
If it's coming up on 100k miles you need to make sure the 100k mile service gets done on time or HAS already been done by a shop that knows what they're doing. Check the front passenger axle boot to make sure it's not cracking or close to it (generally happens mostly in turbo models, but can happen in NA's as well and is about $200 to fix).
Manual transmission is going to last longer overall than an automatic, but if you have to replace the clutch it's going to run you about $700 because the entire engine has to be removed to do so. Auto's are decent, not great, change the tranny fluid every 60k and don't drive it like you stole it and it'll last a long time usually.
Generally they've been super reliable machines for me. I had a '95 Impreza wagon with 185k, abused it as a daily driver and never had a single problem with it other basic maintenance. Goes through snow like none-other, I'd drive circles around Jeeps and 4x4 trucks in the snow. Every model has the highest safety rating of any vehicle in their class.
They're not as pretty as Honda or even Toyota, but they're tough and practical. Not quite on par with Toyota in terms of quality, but still easily top 10, and #1 in safety. You can visit NASIOC for tons more research and guys that know more than me; it is THE Subaru website for all things Subaru.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:04 PM ^
Quailty started to go up when Toyota bought 30% stock in Subaru.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:03 PM ^
Owned a 2015 Subaru Crosstrek before I traded it in on a truck for work/farm.
The car was great, I lived in Colorado for a year and it got me from point A to point B no questions asked.
Really had no complaints. Gas mileage was around 33mpg, safety is top of the line, the symmetrical AWD in the thing made it dummy proof. They hold their value really well too.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:04 PM ^
It’s not Tuesday, Jeepin Ben.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:17 PM ^
don't blame this on him, i'm the one that posted it.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
The OP clearly noted, "I know, it's not Tuesday" in the post.
January 17th, 2019 at 2:00 PM ^
Guess I should’ve made it clear this was a joke.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:05 PM ^
I live in the snow belt of upstate New York where we average 120 inches of snow and I drive 90 miles a day to work and back. I drive a Honda Fit and have 175K miles on it and have done nothing to it other than oil changes, tires and brakes. With snow tires, I can pretty much handle the back roads that are marginally plowed and usually snow covered without any issues.
As you know, there is no beating snow tires for safety in the winter, even on a 4 wheel drive. Our CRV with winter tires makes you feel like you can drive up the side of a house. But the folks that have to get to work regardless of the weather - like doctors and nurses, mostly drive Subarus. I haven't had one but would definitely consider for our next car.
I have a 17 year old new driver myself and occasionally check for listing of old Volvo 240s. But he will likely inherit the Fit when it has 250K miles on it.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:10 PM ^
One other potential positive for a Subaru for a young driver is that they are generally not known as being the fastest cars around. They are still more than adequately powered for many/most uses.
I'm still driving an old 2002 Honda CR-V AWD - it hasn't seen snow for a few years, but it seemed to do OK during the years I did live in a northern climate. At 160 hp, it is certainly not a speed demon.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:11 PM ^
2 year owner of a Subaru Outback. I love it. I cannot vouch for the 2005-2012 time period, but Subaru has a loyal following. AWD is top notch (saved me from a certain ditch dive on a UP back road last winter - going a little too hot around a corner!). It's not a performance vehicle, and I like that. I'm a "get me from point A to B in a safe and efficient manner" type of guy, so the Outback fits the bill for me. I'm seriously considering a Subaru Crosstrek as a first car for impending teenage drivers.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:24 PM ^
We bought a Crosstrek for our second/kids car. It's worked out very well. First my son drove it, now my daughter. We've had one very minor fender bender (not my son's fault; someone hit the car while it was parked) and it's not so nice that I care. We'll just drive it until it's done or isn't worth anything. It's been problem free for three years.
January 17th, 2019 at 1:03 PM ^
Question to both you...I have heard two negative things about the Crosstrek
1. Gutless--I've heard they are quite slow, which is great for a young driver, I realize. But any concerns driving it yourself?
2. Size--The usable space isn't great compared to the Forester or other similar models. True?
January 17th, 2019 at 6:04 PM ^
No concerns. It's fine getting on the highway, but it's not going to light anyone up. Our year is a four speed automatic, which tells the story. My husband drives it now because our daughter isn't getting her license until March. He's not really a car guy and it serves him fine. As for space, it isn't the Forester but for us, it's fine. I transport furniture in it (large upholstered chairs) and it's fine.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:12 PM ^
Consumer Reports has an article "Best used cars for teens". You need a membership for full access. The overall principles are accessible to all though. FYI, I have online access through my local library.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:17 PM ^
I want the new Supra. If I cannot get that, I'm getting a John Cooper Works Mini (the newest model in whichever year I purchase it).
January 17th, 2019 at 1:59 PM ^
John Cooper model? Does it get 2/10/1 mileage?
January 17th, 2019 at 12:18 PM ^
Re: #2, the smartest auto insurance policy is excellent tires. ....I’ve found driving rwd vehicle with hakkapeliitta easily outperforms any 4x4,awd vehicle (save ur money.... you’ll need it for future tuition).... that’s based on driving up mt hood as well as other misc. mt. conditions (i.e. blackcomb etc.) since ‘98. It’s probably accurate to say ur an excellent driver XM and will therefore pass/teach that skill on... said another way, 4x4/awd doesn’t make a shit driver good but proper teaching matched with excellent equipment is uncompromising safety.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:30 PM ^
trying to pass that skill on. so far its working out okay. 2 drivers in, but a bunch more to go.
my dad taught us to drive like he learned how to fly P-51's in WWII - he "abused" us while we drove. without warning he would yell, punch us, jerk the steering wheel, cover our eyes, even turned the car off one time while i was driving it. all very good training.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:36 PM ^
Ha!
My Dad did the same thing. Also, my wrestling coach was my driving coach. He'd drive us past the all girls school and say things like 'HOLY COW DO YOU SEE WHAT SHE IS WEARING?!?!?' and if we turned to look and took our eyes off the road he'd start pounding us on the shoulder with his coach of the year ring. It was fun. :-)
January 17th, 2019 at 1:12 PM ^
I don't disagree with what you say, but I don't see it as an AWD/2WD good tires competition.
AWD is a bit more expensive, like good tires are a bit more expensive.
If you want good traction, AWD > 2WD all things being equal.
So why not get a Subie and put Hakka's on it. That way when his kid is coming home from work and it's a winter storm warning he know's he's loaded the dice in favor of his kid having good traction and not getting stuck as much as possible.
Certainly train them on other cars. I have my kids in my cars driving (in controlled circumstances, on my lap) now. When they get older I'm going to have them do donuts, put the car in skids, etc. in an empty, snowy/icy parking lot. Front, all, and RWD cars.
But I don't see a reason to not get AWD if it's in the price range.
January 17th, 2019 at 5:23 PM ^
JFW I have no problems with awd. Between my X5 and rwd 3 series in mountain conditions I’ve found no safety advantage with performance being equal overall but in certain gradient situations better with rwd. As a result, the savings from gas, insurance and lower maintenance can buy a lotta gravy. Nothing wrong wearing a belt with suspenders though.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^
I have Honda CR-V 4wd and love it. Great gas mileage for an SUV and it will go through some good amounts of snow. It is very reliable as well.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^
Father of 2 boys here...... 90% of drivers (not factual, i'm making that up for effect) will wreck their first car. Buy the cheapest used vehicle with 100,000+ miles on it, that will safely transport them from point A to point B. After a year or two, if they haven't crashed it and rendered it totalled, they will not be a green/new driver and they will have had some time behind the wheel and will have some ideas of what they want and don't want.
IMO, the more bells and whistles you have on the car (that 160,000 mile beater) the more there is to go wrong and cause grief.
Another suggestion. I purchased both my boys first vehicles and made a deal with them to go 50/50 on their second.... Gave them incentive to earn & save some $$. It worked 2 fold. 1. the more they saved the better wheels they can shop for. 2. they had skin in the game on car number 2.
Good Luck!
January 17th, 2019 at 12:24 PM ^
good ideas. like that car #2 idea.
January 17th, 2019 at 12:20 PM ^
We have a newer model Subaru Crosstrek that our kids drive. It's been 100% reliable. The only issue I had was draining the battery when I listened to the radio sans engine for 45 minutes. I don't know if that's considered normal, but with a jump, I was back in business. We drive in the snow and it's very competent in that capacity. Also, it doesn't tempt you (them) to put pedal to the medal. It's not a performance car. I would recommend it.