Talking Cars Tuesday - Let's Talk About Rust
Mates,
Vehicle longevity is affected not just by the mechanics of things like engines and drive trains, but also by how the chassis holds up. Many of us are old enough to remember when Detroit was churning out new cars that would start rusting 15 minutes after you left the showroom (n.b. slight hyperbole there). And just like summer follows spring, so too does rust follow the salty roads of winters in our beloved Michigan. Some vehicles/years were notoriously bad for rust, some just the opposite, pretty durable.
Along those lines, today's questions are:
1. What are the best vehicles to withstand rust - make/model/year, whatever, which ones are best? Just as importantly, what is it about the manufacturer and/or their process or design that makes their steel better?
2. What are or were the worst for rust?
3. If you have one, what is your best, "my old rusty car is/was so bad that...." story?
Have a great day. Do not despair, actual spring weather will come. Some time. During our lives. I promise.
XM
p.s. Some here may get picky about the idea that it might not actually be Tuesday. It's Tuesday somewhere,. or it was Tuesday all over and that's good enough. Besides, Wednesday is very good friends with Tuesday and they hang out. So, Tuesday.
You might get banned again for "misappropriating" the day. Wednesday doesn't like to be dead named.
Cmon man. Days are concepts. You’re relating that to individuals who are going through a subjective hell you probably couldn’t imagine. Whatever dude. Wanna make a slight at drug addicts or homeless people or any other group denigrated to the end of the planet?
Gives new meaning to "I can't keep my days straight."
You might get banned again for "misappropriating"
Ace isn't here anymore.
If you keep your car in the garage it should be fine, but once it is oxide all bets are off.
you must subscribe to the neil young philosophy that 'rust never sleeps'.
... better to burn out than it is to rust.
I've heard a heated garage in Michigan is actually bad for a car though. Apparently things rust faster in warmer temps so having all that salt on the car+warm temps it will rust faster.
OK so we’re banning heated garages and tunnels?
I'm not a corrosion expert, but I do work for a company that makes driveline parts. In my world, carbon steels are typically used due to their relatively low cost and high strength. People like their cars to go, so strength is a priority. Steps taken to prevent corrosion include:
- Paint. Powder coating is common, but water-based paints are also used. Either way, pre-treatment of the surface is vital to ensure adhesion. Peeling paint doesn't prevent corrosion very well. Impact hardness is critical, too - as soon as you get a stone chip in your paint, all bets are off. This is the most common method in driveline parts.
- Plating. More expensive than most painting due to the materials used, but better at keeping the final shape of the part.
- Use aluminum. Mich lighter and won't corrode like steel, but much weaker and much more expensive. Can also have issues when joining to other materials, including galvanic corrosion.
- Use stainless steel. Carbon steel alloyed with chromium won't corrode but is expensive and difficult to join. This was DeLorean's body panel solution.
- Use plastic. Solves the corrosion problem, but much weaker than steel.
- Use carbon fiber. Crazy expensive, but super light and no corrosion worries. Can be difficult to join to other materials.
- Use magnesium. Even lighter than aluminum and more expensive yet. Also dangerous to machine as small magnesium chips are wonderful for use in fireworks. 😳
Someone who knows body panels better than me may have better insight as not too many folks care if their driveshafts are rusty, but if that fender shows rust, it's an issue.
P.S. - it was still Tuesday in Hawaii when you posted this, so all good. (I'm sure this validation is critical.... 😉)
nice run down. thank you.
and thank you for the affirmation that it was tuesday somewhere. hopefully that will put down the fires of protest.
Common X
I'm 63, wear glasses, hearing aids and next Tuesday I'll get a bright and shiny new left hip installed so basically I'm becoming the 6 million dollar man, one part at a time.
BUT EVEN I KNOW IT'S FUCKING WEDNESDAY!
mgrow, it was still tuesday in hawaii so i am totally absolved. totally. so there.
seriously, good luck with that new hip. sorry you need it but i have heard a lot more success stories than failures.
1. Thank you for the well-wishes on the hip. Agreed, virtually everyone I know who's either had one replaced or have a family member who had one replaced reported it went well and relieved their pain. Except one person - my brother in law - who just had one done himself and is experiencing significant leg swelling and discomfort. Dr said it occurs in about 1 out of 100 cases so I'm really hoping he took one for ther family team.
2. Very nice humble-brag. Speaking here as a subject matter expert in the field (just ask Timmaaay) I'm impressed!
ha. i'm not in hawaii, if that's the humblebrag. heck, when i posted i was about to go do barn chores. busy time on the farm is here.
FWIW, I thought it was Tuesday too. It's been that kind of a week so far.
Yes, it is, indeed, Wednesday here in the continental USA.
From familial experience: knees are miserable, hips and shoulders are easy. Good luck with the new body part!
By the way? Did you also know that the current coach of the University of Michigan's football team is (still) Jim Harbaugh?
😉
Good luck with the hip replacement.
This is spot on. I do have experience with body panels. Things like doors and tailgates rust faster (steel or aluminum) when water gets trapped due to improper drainage and/or sealing, in addition to exposure. Not much you can do if it’s designed poorly, you probably shouldn’t start drilling drainage holes yourself. This is why some vehicles tend to be chronic offenders.
Undercoating is great if done correctly. It coats the backside but if it plugs drainage then it’s detrimental.
Another reason is a paint chip, so touch those up ASAP. Especially behind the wheels, bottoms of doors, rockers, front of hood and roof, etc. They become stone pecked. Once there’s an opening it will become pitted and rust will start there. Waxing the panel will help as well (use touch up paint first and let dry).
I’d also believe that the aluminum body Ford pickups will be good performing against rust. But all it takes is one bad joint (they do isolate them) where steel touches aluminum due to a quality problem or bad design and galvanic corrosion will happen. But overall you’re better off IMHO.
EDIT: Many vehicles nowadays have aluminum (or plastic) doors, hoods, fenders, liftgates, etc to save weight and reduce closing efforts. Those are self-contained so they are easier to implement vs using aluminum in the rest of the body.
One thing to note is that corrosion testing takes so long it is hard for a car maker to do it before a vehicle goes into production. By then it’s hard to fix the problem. So engineers just have to follow good design principles and use experience from past models.
The only problem with 4) is stainless steel is prone to chloride-induced stress corrosion cracking. Until they stop using salt on the roads stainless steel isn't that great of a solution. But it won't rust!
That's interesting! Working in driveline we almost never use stainless steel. Maybe the occasional dust shield or rock guard, but never for anything that carries load.
I wonder how the Cybertruck's SS body panels will fare...? Certainly that's been considered...right...?
Use aluminum. [...] and won't corrode like steel,
Aluminum absolutely corrodes in the presence of salt.
I drove a 1967 Chevy II in high school in the early 80's. My buddies loved pulling up the floor mat to spit on the road instead of needing a spittoon.
My parents had an old Ford and I used to love watching the road through the floorboard as we travelled.
Of course it was all leaded fuel back then so it was a nice pastime as my brain cells were curdled.
My dad was a Ziebart man. I just looked it up because I hadn't heard that name in a while. I didn't realize it was 1) still in business and 2) a Troy, MI based company
Then in a later scene after Puddy gets back with Elaine:
Jerry: Alright, alright. Alright, that's enough! Let's get back to my deal. That undercoating, that's just a rip-off, isn't it, David?
Puddy: Oh, we don't even know what it is.
never sleeps
TOP 10 MOST RUSTPROOF CARS
Protégez-Vous magazine, in collaboration with the Automobile Protection Association, last week published a list of the top 10 best and worst vehicles when it comes to preventing rust. Here they are:
Best
- Audi A3, A4, S4;
- Volkswagen Golf, GTI, Jetta, Beetle, Rabbit, Passat, Passat CC;
- Volvo S40, V50, V70, CX70, S60;
- BMW 3 Series;
- MINI Cooper, Countryman;
- Honda Civic, Accord, Fit, CR-V, Odyssey, as well as Acura CSX and TL;
- Toyota Camry, Corolla, FJ Cruiser, Highlander, Matrix, Prius, RAV4, 4Runner, Sienna, Solara, Venza, Yaris;
- Mercedes-Benz B-Class, C-Class;
- Hyundai Accent, Elantra, Entourage, Santa Fe, Sonata, Tuscon;
- Kia Forte, Magentis, Optima, Rondo, Sedona, Spectra, Sportage.
Worst
- Mazda3, Mazda5, Tribute, MPV;
- Jeep TJ, Wrangler;
- Ford Focus, Escape, Explorer;
- Saturn Relay, Vue;
- Buick RendezVous, Terraza;
- Suzuki Swift, XL7;
- Nissan Altima, Maxima, Sentra;
- GMC Terrain;
- Pontiac G5, Montana, Torrent, Wave;
- Chevrolet Cobalt, Equinox, Uplander, Aveo.
Source: protegez-vous.ca
I live in Michigan and my son drives a 2010 Honda Civic. It’s parked outside in the street year round. That car does not have one speck of rust on it. I have two other Honda’s that are parked in the garage. No rust on either of those cars either.
Sorry, any list that does not include every Dodge (RAM) truck made since 1973 at #1 is completely bogus.
logged in to upvote
Dodge trucks are horrific for rusting, especially the pre-2010ish models
I have driven RAM trucks for ~20 years and have never had a problem with a single one. it’s why I keep buying them.
well, as long as you don’t count rust. Trade them in once the rust gets bad on the frame.
You're missing the Gen 2 Durango. It had a channel in the back quarter that ran over the wheel well. Water would run through that channel while you were driving, get to the back of that channel and spin, you know, like a drill bit. It wore through the paint and started rusting where the quarter met the back bumper. Oh, and many of them had the drains in the bottom of the doors sealed up for some crazy reason (an "oops, was I supposed to leave that hole open?" moment). I love my Durango, but at this point it's a race between whether the body will fall apart before the engine blows up. Because they also made the oil drain holes in the engine too small, creating sludge build up.
Other than that, great vehicle!
I've owned 5 Audis, the first being a 1986 Audi 4000S and they've all had no issues with rust. Then again, if you wash the salt off periodically during the winter, that sure helps any car. The "under carriage" wash is your friend.
we've had VW's and have had literally zero issues with rust. granted, they get parked most of the winter and we drive trucks, but still literally rust-free.
It takes a true friend to wash your undercarriage
LMAO. Your list is pretty much...
BEST- foreign
WORST-american junk
OT, but related to decay of something auto-related, are Michigan's load limits for trucks still way higher-than-average?
I was actually under the impression they were lower than most states out west.
Michigan's roads deteriorate so fast because it's not warm enough OR cold enough. That freeze-melt cycle is brutal.
we have what are called 'frost laws' where certain trucks/loads are prohibited on certain classes of roads, and in different parts of our state. i do think the actual tonnage allowed is fairly standard across the country, or at least it was 100 yrs ago when i worked in distribution.
here is a link: Seasonal Weight Restrictions - Michigan County Road Association (micountyroads.org)
I can vouch for the mazda 3 rust, but my current '14 mazda 6 is fine.
Regardless of make/model, an unlimited car wash nov-march is your best defense.
Live in a state in the red (no politics) or better known as the Salt Belt, then your car will rust unless you wash it daily in the winter.
This is purely anecdotal, but the vehicles I've seen most often with rust issues are silver Stellantis (Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram) vehicles. Not just underbody rust, but panels. Random places.
Of course I have one of those, so far so good but it's only 5 years old.
My wife has a 2014 Durango in which we get car washes (2-3x a week) in the winter and it has rust on the door panels. In the past, my old Fords would always rust under the rear wheel wells. Was surprised to see rust on the door. I'm a Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler guy but you're not wrong, dunno what it is but they do seem to rust most often than other cars.
Edit: Just realized you specified silver cars. Her Durango is... you guessed it... Silver. Ha.
This is interesting. I have a gray (grey?) 2020 Pacifica and I think it's starting to rust on the front edge of the hood among other places...
EDIT - should have googled first. Apparently it is a known paint issue, but the hood is aluminum so not rust.
Not an issue in the south except when buying used. We all know not to buy yankee cars because of it (or Florida cars exposed to salt water).
Not just florida - anything near a gulf coast/hurricane area is a no-go for used, IMO
Also need to be careful considering cars that may have been exposed to flooding (e.g. hurricanes, river floods, etc.). The used car market is crazy now.