Talking Cars Tuesday-Best Smallish (used) AWD/4WD Vehicles
Mates,
With a nod to the king and fearless leader of TCT, Jeepin Ben, I had a question relevant to the topic. The premise of the question is that at some point I'm going to get a used smaller 4WD/AWD rig for the middle child before she goes off to college. With one exception, all of our rigs are 4WD/AWD for the obvious reasons of where we live and what we do. Dear daughter doesn't want a pick-up truck and in general would like something smaller that still fills the bill.
I had thought of maybe a used Subaru off the top of my head. But I also wonder what other rigs people have had that ran well, were dependable, and did well in snow, mud, etc. Like all of our rigs I'd buy it used, at auction, nothing too fancy (or too new), and fix it up as needed.
The call of the question is this: What vehicles have you driven/are you driving/have read about/have you heard of because your best friend's brother's mechanic would qualify as an AWD/4WD rig that worked out well?
Hope you are all well. Winter Storm warnings up north starting tomorrow, so if you're headed up you'll want to bring your AWD/4WD rig....
XM
February 21st, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
Toyota Rav4 hybrid with electric AWD has been nice. Kicks in when needed and off otherwise. 60k miles nothing but tires, brakes, and oil changes.
February 21st, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
year? approx cost used (if you know)?
February 21st, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
Ours is a 2018 but I think the AWD hybrid goes back further. Used Toyotas are a usually a little more expense so you'll need to shop around.
February 21st, 2023 at 3:14 PM ^
I can't tell you anything anymore about what I paid for it, but when my oldest was 16 we picked up a used 2008 Rav4 -- regular gas only. That was early 2014.
The SUV is still running fairly well. Over 100K miles. Middle daughter is a college senior now and drives it daily. Makes some noise that we recently had checked out. Mechanic said not dangerous, but will just be noisy until it breaks and needs to be fixed. We replaced a radiator and have been diligent about maintenance and tires, but no other work. Always starts easily and until recently always runs smooth.
Having a good safety rating, AWD, ABS, etc has been great. For back and forth to school nice to have the extra storage options. Both girls enjoyed driving it. They call him "Draco."
February 21st, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
Got one a few months ago and absolutely love it. But the tricky part is with the hybrid market being what it is now, the used ones are still going for near MSRP.
Like here's a 2 year old one with 51k miles, going for $35,000 (MSRP was probably like 39K or so) https://www.carmax.com/car/23891475
Great for resale tho. But honestly, if i was going to get a Rav4 Hybrid, i'd probably just buy new (although i had to wait for like 4 months for mine)
February 21st, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
My RAV4 isn't a hybrid, but it is AWD. I live in Petoskey and absolutely love it year-round. Went with the chunkiest all-seasons I could find instead of getting snows, and combined with the AWD traction in winter conditions is great.
It's a 2015 that had 25k miles on it when I bought it in March 2020 and now has 95k, and the only maintenance has been the typical preventative stuff. Great vehicle!
February 21st, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
My fwd Ford Focus with Michelin Ice-X tires does better than my Subaru with Bridgestone Blizzak's.
I like AWD, but I think tires are more important.
That said, I like Subaru's purely mechanical AwD system.
February 21st, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
The drive train on Subaru AWD's and Audi Quattro's are "as good as it gets". Once you drive one - in inclement weather - you don't want to go back.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
You are absolutely right. Both are great cars! Having put my kids in a hand-me-down Subi Outback Sedan first and a used A4? Were I to do it again (no, please) I would stick to the Subaru.
Parts were fewer $ and easier to get for the Subi, it had *much* better ground clearance and even had a few undercarriage skid plates (one of my little darlings decided to go offroading without first talking to the car's owner (grrr)). Subi also had a lower center of gravity due to the horizontal boxer engine.
I specifically refused to put either kid in a Jeep. Knowing their occasional driving exuberance, I was afraid they would roll it.
Suggestion to XM? Look for early 2000s Subaru Outback sedans with the lower body cladding and the skid plates. Might be a few $K to buy - then about $1500 to get it where you and Mom are comfortable enough to hand the young one the keys. Yes, it will absolutely go up a steep, snow covered hill, especially with a decent set of M+S tires from Bridgestone, Michelin or Pirelli.
February 21st, 2023 at 1:27 PM ^
The Subaru boxer in action:
...and why Subarus are able to have both superior ground clearance and a low center of gravity.
Ingenious. I'm surprised other car companies haven't copied them.
February 21st, 2023 at 1:52 PM ^
I submit: Porsche also installs boxers. Bottom line? Boxers are great engines, and also a PITA to package in a car.
https://www.hotcars.com/heres-how-porsche-and-subaru-perfected-the-boxer-engine/
February 21st, 2023 at 2:38 PM ^
Yep.
Routine things like changing the plugs can be an all day thing.
February 21st, 2023 at 2:42 PM ^
... and the tools needed to be able to work "around corners"
February 21st, 2023 at 3:51 PM ^
Reminds me of the old Corvair opposed 6.
February 21st, 2023 at 5:15 PM ^
Whoa. Yep. You're going back to the rotary phone era with that one. 😁 The nice thing was that you could actually touch almost everything in the engine bay.
February 22nd, 2023 at 5:22 PM ^
With my 1970 Chevelle you could sit in the engine bay and work on the engine.
February 21st, 2023 at 9:43 AM ^
Subarus are great and have the best AWD out there but do have some occasional catastrophic issues like their notorious head gasket problem for most of the 2000s and 2010s, and transmission issues. I have heard newer models have addressed most of those.
I'd go with a Honda CRV or a Toyota Rav-4, personally. About as reliable as you can get
Winter Storm warnings up north starting tomorrow, so if you're headed up you'll want to bring your AWD/4WD rig
Meh. My FWD car and minivan have dedicated snow tires, and on paved roads are just as good if not better than AWD/4WD with all-seasons. Tires are the most critical part of winter driving.
I'd beat Usain Bolt in a race on an ice rink if I had ice cleats and he had track shoes
February 21st, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
"Meh. My FWD car and minivan have dedicated snow tires, and on paved roads are just as good if not better than AWD/4WD with all-seasons. Tires are the most critical part of winter driving."
My house is on a corner lot on a street on westside A2 that has a pretty good incline, as do most of the streets in the immediate neighborhood surrounding our lot.
I wish I had a fiver for every late-model sedan, minivan, pickup, and various models of Jeeps that I've watched try and fail to make it more than 30 feet up the street in slippery winter conditions. Meanwhile, my wife and I have been driving vehicles with full-time AWD (her succession of RAV-4s) or 4WD (my SUVs) with conventional all-season tires and neither one of us has ever come close to getting stuck at the bottom of the incline, or anywhere else in the neighborhood.
February 21st, 2023 at 6:08 PM ^
Duh, of course AWD/4WD with all seasons > non-AWD with all seasons
That's not the point I was making, however
February 21st, 2023 at 2:51 PM ^
and transmission issues. I have heard newer models have addressed most of those
The CVT in the wife's 2018 Subaru was a dog. When it was working.
She's in an Audi now.
February 21st, 2023 at 9:43 AM ^
My mother in law had a Honda CRV that treated her quite well. Not sure if you need more clearance than that given the terrain around you but probably a useful one to take to college certainly.
Hers was '15 I think but here's some data on best and worst years: https://engineerine.com/best-worst-honda-cr-v/
February 21st, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Appreciate the hat tip XM.
My first vehicle was a Jeep Wrangler YJ. Manual transmission (so any friends who wanted to borrow it had to know how to drive stick), 4 Cyl (slow!), convertible in the summer, 4WD in the winter. Great first car.
Clean, higher mileage YJs or TJs would make a good first car for sure. Compared to newer Jeeps they are quite small and maneuverable.
Something like this might not be too far from you https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/fa7181de-53cb-49f1-bf18-eda4a1401e8b/
February 21st, 2023 at 9:55 AM ^
Ben I know you have tremendous all-around knowledge in this area. What years or models of any vehicle would you recommend be on the jeep?
February 21st, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
I think the TJs (97-2006) are great. Simple, not the nicest, but a great size. The top & mirrors got nicer starting in 2002.
JKs (2007-2018) are larger and nicer, people tend to dislike the 3.8LV6 from the earlier model years, but the 3.6L made enough power.
JLs are new and nice.
In terms of other Jeep models, I would avoid the Liberty and pre-2016 Compasses, and Patriots.
A 2016+ Compass, any Cherokee, or Grand Cherokee would be fine. The WK GC (2005-2011) is probably the least loved. A Renegade could work too, depending on how small you want. The Renegade, 2016+ Compass, and KL Cherokee are all the same platform.
February 21st, 2023 at 10:36 AM ^
Buy an XJ and have it restored. That would probably cost you the same as a late model used RAV4 and be much cooler.
February 21st, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^
My folks (who are older) live up in Maine and swear by their Subarus.
While these likely haven't hit the Used/Auction market yet, we got a Volvo xc40 a few years ago and that thing is amazing, does very well in snow/ice (we live in Boston) and like other small suvs can carry a ton with a roof rack
February 21st, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^
Older jeep Cherokee.
February 21st, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
How much older? Do you share a crazy of had huge very ability and what the models were over the years.
February 21st, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
Can't really go wrong with basically any Subaru, new or (lightly) used
February 21st, 2023 at 10:14 AM ^
I have driven '03 and '15 Subaru Foresters up here in the Keweenaw, and both performed extremely well and been very reliable.
However, in my experience, tires and skill are far more important than AWD/4WD. As I'm sure you know, AWD/4WD only lets you accelerate faster on ice and snow, not stop faster or maneuver more safely. My wife and I are able to drive her FWD Hyundai Accent in just about any conditions, even Keweenaw conditions, with a bit a skill and route planning to avoid steep climbs.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:48 AM ^
Great endorsement of the vehicles you listed, I've spent time in the Houghton/Hancock area all 4 seasons of the year and never once doubted my Forester on any road or trail in the area. And as anyone familiar with the Houghton area knows, there's some real driving challenges UP there!
February 21st, 2023 at 1:11 PM ^
I bought a Subaru Outback about 6 years ago when I moved to the greater Houghton/Hancock metro area. I unfortunately no longer live there (oh how I miss it!), but that Outback handled some gruesome winter driving with nothing but aplomb.
We still have the Outback in our fleet. It will be Naked Bootlegger #2's vehicle for getting to/from college for the next few years.
XM: I will drive this Outback to the farm and give you a great deal on it if my son decides to shun it in the near future.
February 21st, 2023 at 1:18 PM ^
road trip!
February 21st, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Whichever vehicle you settle on, I'd recommend looking it up on www.carcomplaints.com. They list all cars by make, model and year, listing the problems that have been reported. The reports come from consumers and the NHTSA.
February 21st, 2023 at 8:37 PM ^
Great information. How do brands from common families... GMC/Buck/Chevrolet for example...get different ratings when many of their vehicles are basically the same car with different trim and badges?
February 21st, 2023 at 10:57 PM ^
Great question
Lexus and Toyota are the same.
Buick, Chevy, Cadi are close enough. Maybe GMC\Trucks have more problems.
I also noticed 3 of the top 4 are Korean.
February 21st, 2023 at 10:29 AM ^
The best cars I've ever owned are awd suzuki kizashis. I have owned two of them and they are fun, fast, and cheap if you can find a good one with no accidents and lowish miles. The first one I had was a 2011 and the second is a 2012. Parts are available online but finding a mechanic who is willing to work on them can be an issue. I sold my first one because it had a minor emissions issue that set off the Check Engine light but never had any other mechanical problems with either of mine.
February 21st, 2023 at 10:37 AM ^
If she is going to a more urban area, I would avoid any car that has a higher rate of catalytic converter theft. Where I live, if you have a hybrid or SUV, your catalytic converter isn’t going to last more than a day parked on the street. The only exception is if you have a car model where the catalytic converter is located in a hard to access part of the car. SUVs are targeted because it’s easier to crawl under the car. Hybrids are targeted because they have more of the precious metals. In my area, pretty much any car with an easily accessible catalytic converter is stolen. What’s worse is people might have to wait months to get it repaired because the parts aren’t available.
I have an older Audi Q3. I love the four-wheel drive train and handling. Too nice for a college car though. Fortunately the cat on the audi is tough to access from below. According to getjerry, “The Audi Q3’s catalytic converter rests right against the exhaust manifold, tucked away in the engine bay, difficult to be accessed by thieves.”
February 21st, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
Another vote for a Honda CR-V, have had multiple family members drive them for years with essentially zero issues. Decent on gas, AWD is solid for most driving environments.
Although I personally would like a Jeep, I'm not sure that would be my first choice for my college age daughter.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
I would avoid a pre 2017 version depending on where she is headed
February 21st, 2023 at 11:07 AM ^
Can’t go wrong with a Toyota RAV4. Well built vehicles that are the perfect size. Have plenty of room for 4-5 people and can still carry a lot of cargo. Get good gas mileage and do well in snow and mud
February 21st, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
We bought our daughter a 2013 Honda CR-V. It’s been reliable with no issues for two years of teenage driving. Looking at getting our son one now for his first car.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
We had a Subaru Crosstrek for our kids, sadly totaled by my daughter last summer when some guy t-boned her in an intersection. We're thinking about getting a plug-in hybrid version for our next car as we try to lower our gas usage. I don't know much about the used price, though. We never had any trouble with it.
February 21st, 2023 at 2:53 PM ^
Subaru Crosstrek
Where I live, FWIW, late model used ones go for about $1,000 less than new.
February 21st, 2023 at 3:47 PM ^
Ours was a 2015 with about 40,000 miles and the insurance company handed us a check for $25,000 last summer when it was totaled. Which is crazy considering that's pretty close to what we paid for it new in 2015.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
In the vein of "planning for the worst, hoping for the best" (and reliving a bad experience with my daughter) I would research the available dealership/service options at your daughter's destination site. Limit your search to only to those vehicles that can be conveniently serviced both home and away.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
Along many others who are singing the praises of Subarus, let me add to the chorus.
My oldest child bought a low mileage 2015 Subaru Crosstrek in 2017 and absolutely loves it! She and her hubby are preparing right now for a road trip to the Carolinas and Florida and add to the problem-free 190,000 miles they've already driven it. They're seriously considering an Outback as their next vehicle, as at this point in life they need a family vehicle while not giving up their lifestyle.
I drive a Forester I purchased new in 2018, no regrets whatsoever other than the limited towing capacity. Considering trading it in and moving on up to either a Subaru Ascent or an Outback and then getting a small trailer or an Aliner Camper so I can fully explore the UP and points beyond.
And my other daughter recently purchased a used Outback too, so far, so good 👍🏼.
If you're looking for a sporty small SUV for your daughter, my guess is that the Crosstrek won't disappoint. It's much more sporty-looking than my Forester and it'll amaize you and her with the cargo space when it's needed. It's rugged and well-built, my daughter and her hubby have driven theirs down trails that would defeat a lesser vehicle.
February 21st, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
XM
I have a 2013 Mazda CX-5 that's a great little SUV. I bought it new for Jill and have since passed it down to our 18 year old and it has 115,000 miles on the thing. Has all wheel drive so good in the snow and gets around 28-30 MPG. The only thing I've had to maintence-wise is replace the tires & brakes a couple of times but that's normal for any car with that many miles.
My only complaint with it (and now that my 18 year is the daily driver this is no longer a bug, it's a feature) is that it's slower than slow so if you want to pass anything you better have a LOT of clean highway in your field of vision. I think I paid around 27K out the door back in 2012 when I bought it and 10+ years later they are selling for around 11-12K so not too bad on the depreciation front.
Would recommend.
February 21st, 2023 at 12:06 PM ^
Agree with mgrowold on this one. Bought mine new in 2015 and had no issues with northern Michigan or Atlantic Canadian winters. Just about to hit 120K (or 200kms eh) and only work that was needed were brakes and rotors.