Saving WR’s
There has been recent speculation (via Sam Webb and others) that our WR’s are fielding overtures from other programs. Rather than get into the legality/ethics of that, my question is simple:
- is our offense unappealing because we are run heavy, first and foremost, or
- is it unappealing because JJ cannot seem to hit a deep ball and get our WR Corp into the meaningful, regular flow of the game?
This is NOT a condemnation of JJ’s ability, but our receivers seem to make an inordinate amount of check-down/shorter throws vs the flashy bombs that Tennessee, as an example, has lived on all season. Additionally, our WR’s seem to run more complex route trees than most, so they seem to be well-coached to capitalize but they don’t. I’d say this our unequivocal weakness as a title contender and it could come back to bite us in two critical phases or program development and advancement.
Discuss or downvote. Or both.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:30 PM ^
Stop dropping easy crap and maybe things will change.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:32 PM ^
Tennessee's flashy bombs bombed. OSU's flash bombs didn't work in the wind and rain. I'll take the "drowning a ferret" offense at this point.
November 7th, 2022 at 9:46 AM ^
Championships are played in domes and SEC weather.
We should learn how to shoot ferrets. Lol
As an aside, I think the passing game is missing a true jumbo sized X receiver, sans the TEs
November 7th, 2022 at 9:48 AM ^
Glomming onto this:
I don't know why opponents are playing their DBs deep and the boxes light.
But as long as they are...I'll take 5+ yards a pop from Corum and Edwards, thank you very much.
November 7th, 2022 at 11:09 AM ^
Tennessee's QB next year is our very own... Joe Milton.
November 7th, 2022 at 11:13 AM ^
Tennessee's QB next year is our very own... Joe Milton.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:34 PM ^
I know that if I were a WR entertaining offers from other schools I would run right to a guy who makes his living talking and tell him about it.
Or I might watch film of other WR's taking Brady's advice and catching the damned ball.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:36 PM ^
No worries. We'll just recruit more rb's like Edwards that can run and catch (and throw).
November 7th, 2022 at 6:24 AM ^
Speaking of which, we need to get the man involved in the kicking game.
November 7th, 2022 at 8:38 PM ^
When Moody leaves, I assume Michael Barrett will be taking over kicking duties but Edwards would make an interesting fake FG threat as holder.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:37 PM ^
JJ still evolving. We’re playing for a B1G and national title this year, not to be a 9-3 air raid offense.
we’ll have a much better passing offense in the future as JJ matures and we aren’t such a dominant run team.
atick with your strengths
November 6th, 2022 at 11:42 PM ^
We're just not that kind of offense. But to your point, yes, I would say the major liability that is going to limit Michigan's ability to knock off the biggest teams out there is JJ's trouble with putting enough arc on the ball and giving his receivers a chance to run under it.
This board gave Shea Patterson holy hell for the constant deep overthrows. I love JJ but he's not above the same criticism-- he's not a natural rainbow-thrower. At this point, the deep shots are a keep-the-safties-honest tactic more than a we-think-we-will-actually-hit-this tactic.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:53 PM ^
Maybe I'm being irrationally optimistic, but after watching JJ have no problems with deep ball accuracy last year or in the non-conference this year, I'm fairly confident it's just a mini-slump that will work itself out. It seems like a bigger deal because we've taken very few true deep shots since the Maryland game.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:22 AM ^
Except he had an off-season surgery that might've permanently affected his throwing mechanics.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:44 AM ^
Possible, but he didn't have any problems against Hawaii or UConn. My point is that the sample size of his recent missed throws is small (5-10 throws), especially in comparison to his overall body of work. Given that Harbaugh says he's hitting the deep balls in practice, I'm not worried.
November 7th, 2022 at 1:14 AM ^
Yeah, the shoulder surgery may be an issue. Who knows. But, I do remember hearing many times that Milton also hit long passes in practice and so don't worry about it. I know McCarthy is a ton better than Milton. Wait, two tons. But knowing something is happening in practice doesn't flip my confidence cookies that it will happen when for real.
My concern is not the missed long balls. It's the not seeing the short open receivers. I just read that M's passing offense is 93rd in the Nation. Ye-ouch!
November 7th, 2022 at 5:04 AM ^
Wasnt the surgery debunked and he was prescribed rest by the doctors instead and that’s what kept him out of spring practice?
November 7th, 2022 at 8:46 AM ^
He did not have surgery.
November 7th, 2022 at 10:16 AM ^
I wonder if that year Wisconsin put 48 on us by running off tackle 30 straight plays their fans were saying "Tolzien only threw 15 passes, WTFs wrong with our offense and how are we ever going to recruit any WRs?"
November 7th, 2022 at 1:29 PM ^
And since that win, Wisconsin has managed to sign the quarterback ranked 493rd and the quarterback ranked 760th. And they've signed wide receivers ranked 376, 736, 826, 968, and one not good enough to be ranked.
Oh, and their passing game got their head coach fired.
So what the Wisconsin fans actually said after that win and what they might wish they'd said with the benefit of hindsight are two different things.
November 7th, 2022 at 4:35 AM ^
He doesn't have any problems when throwing on the run either.
The first pass to start the game as we was rolling out looked awfully nice.
November 7th, 2022 at 1:55 AM ^
He decided not to have surgery
November 7th, 2022 at 5:09 AM ^
How many did he throw last yr? Maybe 4 deep balls? Not a very large sample size.
November 6th, 2022 at 11:58 PM ^
Sure would feel good to hit one though.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:06 AM ^
I thought the offense attacked downfield a lot more on Saturday and while JJ wasn't perfect I didn't see his receivers helping him out any either. Brian's been lamenting (on the podcasts) the lack of "go get it" plays but JJ threw a nice ball to Walker who didn't bring it in, Schoonmacher couldn't hold on to the ball on the seam route to the end zone, bell dropped one that was slightly behind him but plenty catchable... The receivers really don't have much to complain about after this last game. Hopefully that's from lack of work in previous games and can be dialed in before we actually need it.
November 7th, 2022 at 10:37 AM ^
Andrel got both hands on that deep ball too…
Yes slightly overthrown but for the love of god somebody make a play.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:09 AM ^
I still suspect that biggest problem is the receivers are underwhelming. Separation issues. Too many drops. Nobody has shown signs of being a real gamebreaker or somewhat who goes up and gets it. Bell has come closest, I guess, and Wilson has had a few moments. But there’s nobody that’s scaring defense.
November 7th, 2022 at 1:01 AM ^
thats some of it. its also scheme, route concepts and harbaughs desired style. he hammers turnover free, stay ahead of schedule, fundamental football. it typically works pretty well.
not saying they cant dial up shots, scheme mismatches, or whatever but theyre not drilling option routes, encouraging QBs to sling it, constantly hunting for explosive pass plays.
November 7th, 2022 at 4:04 AM ^
Watching Georgia and Tennessee, it stood out to me how much quicker and faster their receivers seemed.
November 7th, 2022 at 8:22 AM ^
Andrel Anthony sure seemed fast enough when he was 5 yards behind the defense and JJ overthrew him with a laser line drive.
November 7th, 2022 at 11:54 AM ^
Laser line drive ....
That ball was catchable and a foot away from being perfect. At some point one of these receivers is going to have to make a tough catch.
November 7th, 2022 at 8:51 AM ^
I think Bell and Wilson are very good. However, it does seem Bell benefited a bit from playing with DPJ and Nico. Wilson is a huge threat but has been injured for large parts of this season.
Also, remember that most defenses haven't been playing to take away the run at all costs, as strange as it seems. Games like MSU and Iowa were like Washington last year, where Michigan was dared to run all game and they were glad to do it.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:09 AM ^
I still suspect that biggest problem is the receivers are underwhelming. Separation issues. Too many drops. Nobody has shown signs of being a real gamebreaker or somewhat who goes up and gets it. Bell has come closest, I guess, and Wilson has had a few moments. But there’s nobody that’s scaring defense.
November 7th, 2022 at 6:57 AM ^
Receives are underwhelming agreed. This has effected JJs confidence. It seems abundantly clear in body language. Go back and compare his expressions to earlier in the year. We are running out of runway to have the power to stretch defenses.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:16 AM ^
Overall during the b1g season the lack of a ton of downfield passes is due to how the other teams are playing defense. Seeing JJ pop 200+ yds with 85-95% completions to the non conference opponents and then drop 300+ yds and 3tds vs Indiana made many of them take the gamble to flood the secondary and try to stop the run with minimal guys. Rutgers game was probably more qb and wrs being just a bit off but that can be fixed. We’ll have to see how the Nebraska game goes and then Illinois before making too much out of it.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:50 AM ^
I’m sorry, but the OP of this thread sounds like something that would be written in 2020 when we were 2-4, not 2022 when we are the defending B1G champions and 9-0.
I want to see more passing as much as anyone and I’m disappointed the offense isn’t higher flying. My preseason suggestion that the offense could be the best in modern Michigan history came with some “if the coaches can get it done” caveats that appear to have been real limits.
But I’ve gone through a couple of offseasons seriously wringing my hands about player attrition that have turned out to be nothingburgers. Losing Giles Jackson and Zach Charbonnet, in particular, were very notable departures that I misinterpreted as a sign that the locker room was falling apart and people were fleeing a sinking ship.
But it turned out that things weren’t bad at all.
I would be alarmed if the receivers were so upset with the passing game that we faced a mass exodus. But I don’t think things are quite that bad, and I’ve been wrong enough about this in the last two years to suggest pumping the brakes on something like this, wait and see.
November 7th, 2022 at 1:01 AM ^
Nailed it.
My 2020 self wouldn't be able to comprehend this conversation.
2020 me: "You're telling me all our receivers are going to transfer because we suck? Fucking Harbaugh!!"
2022 me: "No...we're undefeated, beat OSU last year, won the B1G and will likely be 11-0 heading into Columbus this year with a chance to go back to the playoffs for a second year in a row."
2020 me: "..."
2022 me: "Yup. Oh, buy GameStop on Dec. 30th 2020 and sell it a month later. Trust me."
November 7th, 2022 at 4:10 AM ^
Guys can leave without it meaning there’s a locker room problem. It’s only natural that if you’re a receiver, you’d prefer playing in a pass-heavy offense. Michigan chooses not to be that, and it’s looking like that’s going to continue, even when they have a very talented QB. It’s only common sense that their philosophy might cost them something in recruiting and retention of quarterbacks and receivers. You would hope, though, that it could help them with running backs.
November 7th, 2022 at 9:53 AM ^
Yeah. My 2020 self was pretty doom & gloom.
The ONLY thing I'd have believed back then about the way things shook out is, "we lost both top QBs to transfers, and Cade McNamara started all of 2021." And 2020 PopeLando wouldn't have believed that it ended in a Big Ten Championship...
November 7th, 2022 at 3:18 PM ^
SRJK nailed this. I had huge concerns in 2020 and some concerns in 2021 -- at least until we beat Wisconsin at Camp Randall. For 2022, I did have hopes that we would be more explosive, but mostly because I thought the run game and defense would be taking steps back. That's clearly not happening, and here we are paving people again.
Would I like to see a bit more Fun N Gun? Sure. But c'mon -- 2021 conference champs, then reloading on offense and defense and now 9-0 with all of our goals in front of us? That's pretty fun too.
November 7th, 2022 at 12:52 AM ^
I don't have much to add to the other comments. All of them make sense to me, to wit
- JJ still healing, and getting a better feel / connection with all receivers;
- JJ still getting better in knowing the whole playbook
- many defenses playing to prevent the down-the-field pass;
- WR group dropping catchable passes;
- WR group not doing a great job in getting separation.
JJ has already said it: you take what the defense gives you. If they are giving you plenty of room to run, well, then you run.
There are only a couple things I'd add. First, unless you are transferring to Bama, OSU, Georgia, and maybe Tennessee, Michigan gives you one of the best chances of a national championship. And how many in the Michigan WR group are going to transfer to one of those schools and get significantly more PT? Sure, you could transfer to Minnesota or Indiana or UCLA, or Washington, as other Michigan players have done. But is that really want you want to do?
Second, I hope someone is telling them that a balanced offense with run and pass is a good thing. I mean, sure, you could go to OSU, but their lack of a great running game is going to eventually fail them.
November 7th, 2022 at 1:20 AM ^
JJ still getting better in knowing the whole playbook
I've always hated seeing that type of statement. You are probably right. But if it's true, it shows the QB isn't with the program. It's November now.
But the running game is great this year, the defense even better. In fact, the defense is great. Maybe the urgency of getting closer to the Game, and making the playoffs, will bring the best out of JJ, and we'll see a level from him we haven't seen.
November 7th, 2022 at 4:12 AM ^
The idea that McCarthy doesn’t know the playbook is a message board creation. He’s been around the program for almost two years.
November 7th, 2022 at 10:48 AM ^
He’s also a first year starter…the idea he knows everything completely is just as crazy.
Also it’s one thing to know the plays, it’s another to be comfortable and confident enough to execute them in a game.
I think people need to relax a bit. I don’t see any major issues. I see correctable issues that more reps and familiarity can fix. I’m happy that Michigan was trying to open things up against Rutgers. Let’s also recognize Rutgers is no slouch defensively, and even if it wasn’t pretty there we’re still strides made in the pass game. We were like 7 of 8 for TDs in redzone trips, and that included some JJ endzone passes (and one near TD to Schoonmaker). The Andrel deep shot was there but like 6 inches too far, and Andrel just couldn’t bring it in despite having both hands touching the ball (I’d give a slight negative to Andrel for that too).
I dunno. It’s a lot of “almost” that seems correctable still. We wring our hands but I mean…we’re still absolutely destroying everyone on the schedule because of our Heisman-caliber RB and best OL in the country. We need it for OSU and beyond. Good thing there’s still time to get it there.
November 7th, 2022 at 10:44 AM ^
However, JJ is still NOT learning how to put air and touch on his deep balls.
November 7th, 2022 at 1:12 AM ^
Wide Receivers not named Ronnie Bell have caught 54 passes this season, or 6 per game. None of them have even 20 catches, and only 2 have double figures. I hope they all stay, but objectively it’s understandable why some may look around if we don’t throw it around more to the WRs.
November 7th, 2022 at 4:32 AM ^
Undefeated with a Heisman candidate running back.
November 7th, 2022 at 9:58 AM ^
It's true, but that ignores the fact that many college players view college as a path to the NFL. If receivers are stuck in an offense that never gets to show off or develop their skills this is going to hurt or even close off that path. As nice as winning is, it might not be enough in that case.
November 7th, 2022 at 6:38 AM ^
If you are starting, then you have to ask why am I not getting the ball? If you are not starting, then you have to ask why am I not starting? If I know the answer to these questions, I might ask, where would it be better for me, and do they have room or want me?
So, who would be better somewhere else, and can they get there?
Reminder, they signed up to play for a run-heavy program. Why would they think it would better somewhere else other than a young man questioning everything?
November 7th, 2022 at 1:36 AM ^
Maybe we should be fielding WRs from other programs. Our WRs have struggled to get open, other than Wilson.